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Ivashanko

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German invasion wasn't sustainable without brutality. Because it was a point of it - "to get stuff for free".

Oh, I don't doubt it. The Fascist party would not have started that kind of war for the reasons it did without being extremely brutal. But in any other sort of invasion (say, an invasion to change the ideological party of the Soviet Union, or an invasion to create a buffer zone between Berlin and Moscow) could have resulted in mass defections.

It goes without saying that Hitler wasn't really the sort of man to go to war for those reasons though. The extermination of the obviously Mongoloid Slavs was too high a priority.
 

Amallric

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That is why I said 'almost'. Had the Germans been less brutal it is possible that Stalin's ruthlessness would have caused large parts of the Soviet Union to fight for the invaders.

They did. Millions of Soviet citizens fought, worked, or served the Germans. There were so many of them that most didn't even got shot - they got away with 20 years of Gulag, which is what every law-abiding Soviet citizen could expect to experience after all.
 

trybald

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German invasion wasn't sustainable without brutality. Because it was a point of it - "to get stuff for free".

But they could do it in a more sensible way. Like utterly plundering Belarus, but being lenient to the Ukrainians.


They did. Millions of Soviet citizens fought, worked, or served the Germans. There were so many of them that most didn't even got shot - they got away with 20 years of Gulag, which is what every law-abiding Soviet citizen could expect to experience after all.

What was the general fate of HiWis?
 

Enravota

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I completely fail to see your point. Is this an attempt at undifferentiated sarcasm about Stalin and other "totalitarian dictators"? In that case I fear I have nothing to offer you except encouragement to do better next time.
My point is that it is not merited to assume that because a person is renown due to politics, politics is all they did. There are quite a few petty thieves turned political activists in history. Occasionally the distinction itself can get pretty slim.
 

Ivashanko

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They did. Millions of Soviet citizens fought, worked, or served the Germans. There were so many of them that most didn't even got shot - they got away with 20 years of Gulag, which is what every law-abiding Soviet citizen could expect to experience after all.

Oh, I know. I was talking about entire culture groups, tens of millions, rather than just millions. My grandfather was one, actually. His family all had to flee from the Soviets- he was abandoned in an orphanage were he was pretty severely physically and emotionally abused. He fled to Poland and was involved in the war effort against Germany, but he was recruited to fight to spy for the White Russians after he learnt much of his family and friends that had been in Eastern Poland or who had remained in Russia had died. He was in Leningrad for the mass majority of the war, but suffered an emotional collapse after seeing what the Germans were doing in Russia. I guess he thought the horrors of Lennigrad were an isolated affair caused by a city suffering from a siege, and that the reports of German atrocities were very sketchy in the city.

His White Russian friends whisked him to Berlin somehow, and apparently he saw one of, if not the, Hitler's last speeches. At this point he could barely stand or speak, as years of starvation and then emotional turmoil might do to someone. Latter he would flee from the Red Army and make his way throughout Europe.

Just thought it an interesting anecdote. I'd actually love to write a novel about it one day.
 

Kovax

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The so-called "butterfly effect" is when some trivial change causes larger repercussions further down the road, leading to a major divergence from what would have happened otherwise. Essentially "unpredictable".

I believe it dated from a (1950's?) sci-fi short story about some guy who pays to "hunt dinosaurs", but he's warned that straying from the clearly defined path or shooting anything other than the specific dinosaur that he paid to shoot (which is destined to die anyway) may result in unpredictable changes. He steps off the path to get a clear shot, shoots his target, and then steps back into the time machine, except that all the letters have changed to French. When he returns to a very different world than the one he left, he finds a crushed butterfly on the bottom of his boot, which caused the disruption of the food chain and 40 million years of slightly divergent history. The term was used as the title of a more recent movie, playing on that effect.

In the cases mentioned in previous posts, there were cumulative effects of multiple events, so even a minor change in one of those events could have caused a significant shift in those later events, many of which affected more than one country. The change to the one event makes the whole following sequence or multiple sequences of events unpredictable. A change that affected one country in WWI, which in turn had a significant effect on several countries in the war, leading to an armistice which then may or may not resemble the one which was signed historically, would have had totally unpredictable consequences in the politics and military developments leading up to WWII.

Butterflies, lots of them. Remember, though, that some species of male butterflies are know to travel up to a mile to tear the limbs and wings off of a competitor. They may be pretty, but they're not all peaceful.
 

CruelDwarf

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Oh, I don't doubt it. The Fascist party would not have started that kind of war for the reasons it did without being extremely brutal. But in any other sort of invasion (say, an invasion to change the ideological party of the Soviet Union, or an invasion to create a buffer zone between Berlin and Moscow) could have resulted in mass defections.
The problem is that nazi ideology wasn't a reason or cause for brutality, it was only a method to justify it for the soldiers and population. Again, goal of the invasion was simple - get Soviet Union natural resources without paying for them because trade with Soviet Union started to get too costly in terms of funds and technology transfers. Germany was able to bully various europeans minors like Sweden or Switzerland to accept deals weighted in nazi favor, but USSR was too strong and large for such. So there is only way to get stuff for cheap - beat soviets into submission.

And there is a second problem of the war: to beat USSR into submission you need to advance very deep into Russia. And war with such long lines of supply wasn't sustainable for german logistics. So troops were forced to live from the land without any regard to declared policy towards local population. People will not defect to your cause if you just rob them from their last food and shelter to feed and house your own soldiers.

And no, you cannot "buy" stuff from locals. Locals will not accept german money willingly because there is nothing to buy with such money. You need actual stuff to trade with peasants and if you start to transport trade goods with your already strained logistics your troops will suffer from even more shortages of ammunition and replacements.

So organized brutality was only possible way for Germans to wage war against Soviet Union. There was no viable alternatives.
 

CruelDwarf

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What was the general fate of HiWis?
Nothing special. If HiWi did not take arms against SU (and most HiWis were unarmed personnel), he was free to go after some screening process. If HiWi was from military and/or did participate in fighting but did not commit any warcrimes his fate was up to five years of labour camps. People who participated in warcrimes or provided sensitive information to germans got harsher treatment - 20 or so years or even execution. High-ranked military officers or civil officials who collaborated with germans also got similar punishment.

Contrary to popular belief afterwar SU was pretty lenient towards people who were forced to serve the enemy.
 

trybald

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Thanks. But apparently the "myth" was perpetuated by the Soviets themselves.

However, were there any negative repercussion on former POWs, HiWis and laborers in later civilian life? I mean things like employment opportunities, surveillance, permissions to move to big cities, education. There is an often-repeated story that even families of former POWs faced some discrimination as late as in 1980s, like for example being barred from some employment.
 

Lord Finnish

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Thanks. But apparently the "myth" was perpetuated by the Soviets themselves.

However, were there any negative repercussion on former POWs, HiWis and laborers in later civilian life? I mean things like employment opportunities, surveillance, permissions to move to big cities, education. There is an often-repeated story that even families of former POWs faced some discrimination as late as in 1980s, like for example being barred from some employment.
Well, I've heard that in Finnish army even in 60s-70s being the descendant of a Red Guard (1918) was enough to bar you from officer school so I can't imagine USSR being a lot better.
 

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That makes me wonder two things:
a, how much of this is fabrication (after all, he was a lowly criminal in his early days)

He attended a seminary, so had at least some education, and communist movements actually tended to prize education quite a bit. One of their more common activities apart from labour unions tended to be book clubs.
 

JodelDiplom

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The problem is that nazi ideology wasn't a reason or cause for brutality, it was only a method to justify it for the soldiers and population. Again, goal of the invasion was simple - get Soviet Union natural resources without paying for them because trade with Soviet Union started to get too costly in terms of funds and technology transfers. Germany was able to bully various europeans minors like Sweden or Switzerland to accept deals weighted in nazi favor, but USSR was too strong and large for such. So there is only way to get stuff for cheap - beat soviets into submission.

And there is a second problem of the war: to beat USSR into submission you need to advance very deep into Russia. And war with such long lines of supply wasn't sustainable for german logistics. So troops were forced to live from the land without any regard to declared policy towards local population. People will not defect to your cause if you just rob them from their last food and shelter to feed and house your own soldiers.

And no, you cannot "buy" stuff from locals. Locals will not accept german money willingly because there is nothing to buy with such money. You need actual stuff to trade with peasants and if you start to transport trade goods with your already strained logistics your troops will suffer from even more shortages of ammunition and replacements.

So organized brutality was only possible way for Germans to wage war against Soviet Union. There was no viable alternatives.
Indeed. Much of the Nazi brutality actually has two sides - on one side, it can be understood from the ruthless inhuman (and irrational) mindset behind the Nazi plans. On the other side, it can also be understood entirely rationally from the problems that the Germans knew they were facing in the invasion of Russia - like you said, they weren't rich enough to fight a total war in the depths of Russia, with the intense operational tempo mandated by the Barbarossa plan, and leave the Russians in the conquered lands with enough to eat (while the war lasted). Maybe the US Army could have fought that sort of war, and brought enough food with them to feed their army while still leaving the Russians enough to live, but the Wehrmacht could not.

Oh, I don't doubt it. The Fascist party would not have started that kind of war for the reasons it did without being extremely brutal. But in any other sort of invasion (say, an invasion to change the ideological party of the Soviet Union, or an invasion to create a buffer zone between Berlin and Moscow) could have resulted in mass defections.
But no one in his right mind invades Russia for those kind of reasons. The risks are totally not commensurate with those kind of limited gains.
 

trybald

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Well, I've heard that in Finnish army even in 60s-70s being the descendant of a Red Guard (1918) was enough to bar you from officer school so I can't imagine USSR being a lot better.

That sounds weird, considering how servile was Finland towards the Soviets at that time.
 

SorelusImperion

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The problem is that nazi ideology wasn't a reason or cause for brutality,

Yea. The Holocaust was totally accidental and the Einsatzgruppen were absolutely unpolitical and just did what was necessary. Sometimes a state just need sto devote extra resources to Deathsquads so that they can properly clean up the place.

:confused:
 

SorelusImperion

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Yes there was a serious degree of Improvisation but the end result was a the logical conclusion of NS ideology. There was nothing accidental about it and it was certainly not the result of a merely pragmatic war policy. It was the result of a deeply violent and agressive ideology.
 

CruelDwarf

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Yea. The Holocaust was totally accidental and the Einsatzgruppen were absolutely unpolitical and just did what was necessary. Sometimes a state just need sto devote extra resources to Deathsquads so that they can properly clean up the place.
And how holocaust is linked with german policies during occupation of Soviet Union territories? Germany do not invade USSR to kill soviet jews. It was a bonus objective so to speak.
 

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And how holocaust is linked with german policies during occupation of Soviet Union territories? Germany do not invade USSR to kill soviet jews. It was a bonus objective so to speak.
They saw USSR as an inherently Jewish system, so in a way the goal was to kill Jews - killing USSR means killing its Jews as well.
 

cacra

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Yes there was a serious degree of Improvisation but the end result was a the logical conclusion of NS ideology. There was nothing accidental about it and it was certainly not the result of a merely pragmatic war policy. It was the result of a deeply violent and agressive ideology.
There is nothing logical about the Nazi's attitude to Judaism. Lets not forget Hitler planned to send all of Germany's jews to Madagascar!