Spying on other countries?

[unmerged(37262)]

The spice of intel

Clandestine ops should be much like research. You invest in intel, and counter intel while selecting from available missions. When completed it would allow you to activate in location or hold it in que for a time sensetive event. The longer you hold it the more likely your oponents counter intel has to spot it. Some ops would lead to others. Some ops would only be available after others were completed, say "insert spy". Once you use it though the other options are no longer available. The real doozy's would be difficult to reach, say "stealing hitlers underwear" or "streaking the Reichstag".

If HOI2 research is going to be as streamlined and user friendly as it is claimed to be, it would be very possible to slip this in.

Like someone said before, add a little spice without too much micro-management.

ski

 

[unmerged(29126)]

Having actual spies on the ground would IMHO totally unbalance the game.

I've seen twenty parts of a series of documentaries, and let me tell you, it looks like a SINGLE British agent could take out entire divisions without even breaking a sweat ... and he's had plenty of time left for hanky-panky with his female colleagues ...



The way it was done in HOI1 was sufficient for me.

 

[GhengisKhan]

Having actual spies on the ground would IMHO totally unbalance the game.

I've seen twenty parts of a series of documentaries, and let me tell you, it looks like a SINGLE British agent could take out entire divisions without even breaking a sweat ... and he's had plenty of time left for hanky-panky with his female colleagues ...



The way it was done in HOI1 was sufficient for me.

Thats not a documentary that the James Bond 007 movies .

I also agree the way it was done in HoI1 was good enough.

 

[GrimReaper]

Having actual spies on the ground would IMHO totally unbalance the game.

I've seen twenty parts of a series of documentaries, and let me tell you, it looks like a SINGLE British agent could take out entire divisions without even breaking a sweat ... and he's had plenty of time left for hanky-panky with his female colleagues ...



The way it was done in HOI1 was sufficient for me.

:rofl:

Agreed

 

[unmerged(13031)]

I noticed on screenshot #8 that there was a question mark next to the german units. is it possible to invest in spying on other countries for better intel, or will it be limited to use tech's to improve your information on the enemy.

Since the new movement is attack battle feature shall be used, maybe we should be able to get intel on an upcomming attack by investing in intelligence. At least in HOI1 you could see one coming (unless it was a feint) by the marching. It's not unrealistic to have intel on an impending attack...sometimes it could even be wrong based on the level of intelligence one has. Not all attacks were surprise and I don't care for asuming an attack because of a buildup of forces, which seems like the only indication we'll have now. And, how does one feint now? But that's just me.

 

[MaximusII]

Why not use the merchant system from EU1????or has it as an "Resursce" called like spys that you could send to other countrys.....perhaps even neutral to steal techs????

 

[unmerged(36228)]

I think it will all depend on if the enemy as a whole is well organized and has a concrete plan and objective (i.e. New message intercepting technology has allowed us to pick up orders for the 6th army in the south. The 6th army under Paulus has engaged in a mission it attack through the south into the Don steppe, and its objectives include Stalingrad and possibily the Caususes)

I think the only real way it could work is new interception of enemy 'orders', but this is assuming that armies arent on just an abstract fight to the death mode like HoI1, and will actually be issued orders, and try to the best of their extent to carry them out.

 

[unmerged(29126)]

Since the new movement is attack battle feature shall be used, maybe we should be able to get intel on an upcomming attack by investing in intelligence. At least in HOI1 you could see one coming (unless it was a feint) by the marching. It's not unrealistic to have intel on an impending attack...sometimes it could even be wrong based on the level of intelligence one has. Not all attacks were surprise and I don't care for asuming an attack because of a buildup of forces, which seems like the only indication we'll have now. And, how does one feint now? But that's just me.

getting info prior to an attack would require some sort of command-delay between giving an attack order and the commencement of the attack. Currently the game does not support this, the player and the A.I. can order an attack and it will be executed immediately ... so no early warnings are possible, simply because of the immediate nature of MiA

Feinting is not really an option when continuous fronts are involved ... a Napoleonic or Roman army could possibly feint a certain movement ... the only weay to "feint" in a modern war is to carry out a diversionary attack, which will result in casualties just like a regular attack would, only that it's not carried out to conquer a province but to bind enemy forces ... the only other way to feint would be to build mock tanks like was done in North Africa and Kent ...

But all that said, discovering force-buildup as an indication for an attack will only work against a human player. What I've seen of the A.I. so far is that of an oportunistic A.I., not of one that carries out elaborate pre-planned offensives (well, at least not pre-planned for more than a day or two, whcih does not really give much time to react)

Seeing attacks coming, sometimes weeks in advance, like in HOI1 wasn't really that great either. All in all, I prefer it the way it is now. Of course, improvements can always be made, I just haven't seen any suggestions that I can agree to.

 

[unmerged(13031)]

getting info prior to an attack would require some sort of command-delay between giving an attack order and the commencement of the attack. Currently the game does not support this, the player and the A.I. can order an attack and it will be executed immediately ... so no early warnings are possible, simply because of the immediate nature of MiA

Feinting is not really an option when continuous fronts are involved ... a Napoleonic or Roman army could possibly feint a certain movement ... the only weay to "feint" in a modern war is to carry out a diversionary attack, which will result in casualties just like a regular attack would, only that it's not carried out to conquer a province but to bind enemy forces ... the only other way to feint would be to build mock tanks like was done in North Africa and Kent ...

But all that said, discovering force-buildup as an indication for an attack will only work against a human player. What I've seen of the A.I. so far is that of an oportunistic A.I., not of one that carries out elaborate pre-planned offensives (well, at least not pre-planned for more than a day or two, whcih does not really give much time to react)

Seeing attacks coming, sometimes weeks in advance, like in HOI1 wasn't really that great either. All in all, I prefer it the way it is now. Of course, improvements can always be made, I just haven't seen any suggestions that I can agree to.

seems I feinted quite alot in HOI just by moving troops towards another front....I made the AI react to that. and no offence, but whether you agree to suggestions or not, though you are quite welcome to your valuable opinion, will not add or fail to add game features. Its what Paradox agrees to (or doesn't that counts.) I for one dont care for the instant attack feature. I know many others, maybe even most of the players do. No matter, if the game has more pluses than minuses (minuses being defined by what I like or don't like) it will still be a winner in my book and I will buy it and play it. I don't think there is a game in existence that COMPLETELY pleases anyone, including me, so I can't expect HOI2 to have absolutely everything I like and absolutely nothing I dislike.
cheers

 

[unmerged(29126)]

seems I feinted quite alot in HOI just by moving troops towards another front....I made the AI react to that. and no offence, but whether you agree to suggestions or not, though you are quite welcome to your valuable opinion, will not add or fail to add game features. Its what Paradox agrees to (or doesn't that counts.) I for one dont care for the instant attack feature. I know many others, maybe even most of the players do. No matter, if the game has more pluses than minuses (minuses being defined by what I like or don't like) it will still be a winner in my book and I will buy it and play it. I don't think there is a game in existence that COMPLETELY pleases anyone, including me, so I can't expect HOI2 to have absolutely everything I like and absolutely nothing I dislike.
cheers

Hihi, maybe I was a bit unclear. Actually I would've preferred a bit of command delay myself (1-3 days) ... so in that scenario I guess early warning could've been implemented ...

The "Feint" I was referring to was the "feint "-order one could give in HOI1 ...
that was sooo unrealistic, sorry, but it was. Seeing an enemy attack days or weeks before it commenced, and being able to react to it by moving your own troops into the defending province was just a bit silly, that might work with set-piece battles. MiA has completely removed this problem (that's the way I see it)

The feinting you describe (simply moving troops without ordering an attack) can still be done, of course. That's where "normal" Army detection by neighbouring units or air-units comes into play. And this build-up is the only indication we might have of an impending attack. Unfortunately, the A.I. does not really plan "offensives" it just exploits weaknesses in the Human player's defense. So this doesn't really help against the A.I. (of course I need the full game to be absolutely certain about this last point, but this is the way I experienced it in HOI1, and so far the Demo has not convinced me of anything else.)

If I sounded patronizing or condecending, I would like to appologize.
The last bit in my previous post about me "not agreeing" was just a remark to clarify my position on this particular question. I simply cannot see where an advanced warning system (intel, spies, whatever) would fit in, because you cannot be warned of an attack that can be initiated at an hours notice, like it can be with MiA.

I already bought the game (at least I hope so, still waiting for a confirmation), so any issues that I might develop with the game will definitily NOT be game-breaking to me either.

 

[Chris8b]

Feinting is not really an option when continuous fronts are involved ... a Napoleonic or Roman army could possibly feint a certain movement ... the only weay to "feint" in a modern war is to carry out a diversionary attack, which will result in casualties just like a regular attack would, only that it's not carried out to conquer a province but to bind enemy forces ... the only other way to feint would be to build mock tanks like was done in North Africa and Kent ...

Hmm.

Feinting is still a tactical, if not strategic, option in modern warfare.

In 1991, for example, the US Marine Corps used multiple thrusts to feint at Kuwait while the US Army and other forces raced along the left flank of Iraqi forces to encircle Iraqi forces in Iraq proper.

I'm sure there were WW2 battles in which feints were used. Rommel at Gazala, for example, if my memory serves.

-C

EDIT: Read your clarification, so ignore this.

 

[unmerged(29126)]

Hmm.

Feinting is still a tactical, if not strategic, option in modern warfare.

In 1991, for example, the US Marine Corps used multiple thrusts to feint at Kuwait while the US Army and other forces raced along the left flank of Iraqi forces to encircle Iraqi forces in Iraq proper.

I'm sure there were WW2 battles in which feints were used. Rommel at Gazala, for example, if my memory serves.

-C

EDIT: Read your clarification, so ignore this.

The point was that in HOI1 a feint doesn't really initiate combat.

I could even imagine a feint-command within MiA where both the defender and the attacker suffer less org- and str-damage (the defender of course wouldn't know this), you might see it as a bit of skirmishing and probing but no real offensive, but it should still be handled like regular combat,

wheras HOI1-style feints were able to bind enemy troops (awaiting the attack) for days and weeks without ANY damage to the feinting units (except when retreating from low infra)

I'm sure there were feinting operations carried out in WW2. Other people will know a lot more about this than I ever will. But in order to make these feints look "real" they would have had to draw some blood and be maintained over a certain period of time, I would imagine. Or am I thinking of diversionary attacks ? Maybe someone could shed some light on the terminology here.

 

[unmerged(36003)]

The espionage system that most of you are currently discussing is almost entirely based on military matters.

Espionage could be used differently, perhaps in conjunction with the partisan system. An allocation of funds to espionage in the social/partisan slider would yield a higher partisan rate, caused by the spy's ability to inspire resistance, as well as the efforts of the government to supply the partisans with supplies.

Espionage could also be used to gain an advantage over the enemy economically. The spy/espionage slider could perhaps be further divided into an economic slider. This slider would cause the spy to sabotage factories (an event which causes UK to pay XXX amount of pounds to fund the operation to destroy the heavy water plant comes to mind), or to learn the enemy nations current output of resources, and how large the stockpile is.

Most interestingly, the espionage system could be used to capture blue prints of enemy nation's plane/tank/reactor. This one would rarely bear fruit, but when it did, it would be very beneficial.

I'm not sure how I would implement counterespionage, other than just a single slider, which determines the how effectively the nation can ferret out enemy spies.

 

[Chris8b]

Or am I thinking of diversionary attacks ? Maybe someone could shed some light on the terminology here.

"feint" and "diversionary attack" are interchangeable terms.

And I agree with your assessment. Feints tend to be repeated light attacks with quick withdrawals. Regardless, I think feints at a divisonal level are pretty damn rare historically and can be safely left out of the game. Feints as a more tactical tool should be abstracted (through doctrine and leader skill, etc.) in to the battle system.

-C

 

[unmerged(13031)]

If I sounded patronizing or condecending, I would like to appologize.
The last bit in my previous post about me "not agreeing" was just a remark to clarify my position on this particular question. I simply cannot see where an advanced warning system (intel, spies, whatever) would fit in, because you cannot be warned of an attack that can be initiated at an hours notice, like it can be with MiA.


no need to apologize. points well taken.
cheers