Spy attacks during a truce.

[unmerged(3921)]

>Do you think it's somehow unreasonable that a victor in a war should be able to demand the loser cease espionage attempts on them?

Seems reasonable they should be able to ask, but it would also be reasonable for the defeated party to keep on sending spies while claiming someone else did it!

As a practical matter you already have a way to get countries to stop sending spies at you. It's called force vassalization. Give it a try. You'll find it works wonders.

At any rate I really don't think even 3 countries throwing spies at you would cause serious damage. Personally I do think that a clever AI strategy would be to have EVERYONE across the globe throw spies at the human if the human passes his BB barrier. Now THAT would be fun!

 

[Darkrenown]

Sadly their efforts would be tharted by the game, which kindly reports whose sending spies

I did mention vassalisation earlier, but I dislike every war having to end in that or annexion.

And 3 nations = 15 spies + whatever they gain per year, assuming no missions fail those 15 spies could take you to -3 stab (6), infiltrate your spy rings (7), despise your merchants (8) and either raise your inflation/BB by 7 or support a bunch of rebels and make your troops desert. Pirates can also be a pain if you've slacked on your navy.

Anyway, it seems the AI is getting spys for free ATM, once that's resolved it should cut down on the spam somewhat so I'll let this drop untill then.

 

[Darkrenown]

To expect the computer to read your mind and know that you weren't planning to go back to war is, let's just say, a little crazy.

I'm not asking for mind reading, if you take a few seconds to read my first post you'll see I wanted this to either be part of every truce (You know, the time when you agree not to take any hostile acts against the other), or to be a option in peace treatys.

 

[unmerged(9145)]

Just mod the spies out. It's easy to do.

It'll actually help AI gameplay. Spy actions aren't capable of doing any really serious damage (except when directed by a large player nation against a small AI nation) so the money will be spent on troops or the economy instead of relatively useless espionage. This is especially true of smaller powers which can ill afford spy actions to begin with.

It'll also free up a national idea for something more useful, for example "Brilliant Engineers", a choice that reduces construction costs by 10%. Or whatever strikes your fancy.

Max

 

[Darkrenown]

I'm afraid you've totally missed my point(s):

A) I like spys just fine normally, it's only the spam after a war that concerns me.

B) Spys CAN do serious damage as I pointed out just 2 posts ago.

C) The AI currently doesn't pay for spys, as I said in the post just above yours, so editing them out would not help their economy one bit.

Nor is your post is terribly unhelpful. If you assume I already know how to mod stuff (I do) and wanted to remove spies completly surely I would already have done so, if you assume I do not know then your post offers no hint of how to do it.

 

[unmerged(9145)]

I'm afraid you've totally missed my point(s):

A) I like spys just fine normally, it's only the spam after a war that concerns me.

That can only be fixed by Paradox. We don't have access to the AI files anymore so we can't direct the actions of the AI at all.

B) Spys CAN do serious damage as I pointed out just 2 posts ago.

Yes, when under the direction of a player. But the AI can't do much against a human being, unless the human decides to ignore espionage altogether and let come what may.

C) The AI currently doesn't pay for spys, as I said in the post just above yours, so editing them out would not help their economy one bit.

I can't find a post from Paradox claiming that the AI doesn't pay for spy actions. Do you have a link?

Nor is your post is terribly unhelpful. If you assume I already know how to mod stuff (I do) and wanted to remove spies completly surely I would already have done so, if you assume I do not know then your post offers no hint of how to do it.

I didn't see the point in doing so unless you said "yes, show me how". And as you pointed out you already know how to do it, so posting instructions would've been a waste of my time and yours. Probably a violation of forum etiquette, too, as this isn't the modding sub-forum.

Modding out spies is the only option you're left with, unless Paradox decides to change the peace process to accommodate your request. I don't see this happening.

Max

 

[Darkrenown]

That can only be fixed by Paradox. We don't have access to the AI files anymore so we can't direct the actions of the AI at all.

Of course. At no point have I requested a solution via modding.

I can't find a post from Paradox claiming that the AI doesn't pay for spy actions. Do you have a link?

Someone made a thread about it a day or 2 ago, can't find it ATM. You can see for yourself though: Load as a poor minor, cheat for 5 spies, spend any spare money you have, DoW someone. Load as whoever your DoWed, get hit by spy attacks. Load as first nation again, observe that spys are all gone and no loans have been taken, you can also look in the ledger and see spy costs listed as £0.

 

[unmerged(9145)]

Of course. At no point have I requested a solution via modding.

And as for not 'requesting' a modding solution, prior to my post you didn't say anything about NOT wanting such a solution. All you did, really, was complain that you didn't like the current system. So, trying to be a tiny bit helpful here, I suggested the only course of action you have available to you at this time, on the off-chance that it might make your game a wee bit more enjoyable.

Excuse me for thinking that you wanted to do something other than engage in a rant. I'll try not to make that mistake again.

Max

 

[Darkrenown]

I have no idea why you'd think I was asking for a mod, everything I suggested in my first post would require a code change. Nor was I just ranting, I was proposing solutions. The idea being you post your ideas, the forum loves them, Paradox agrees, and it gets added in a patch. Of course, that rarely happens, but the chance is there.

 

[unmerged(6310)]

Seems reasonable they should be able to ask, but it would also be reasonable for the defeated party to keep on sending spies while claiming someone else did it!

True - but if you discover who's doing it - and it's the nation you entered a truce with, I think the truce should be terminated at that point and a casus belli to the victim of the spy attack. That seems reasonable to me.

 

[unmerged(6310)]

on top of all the penalties already in place (cash cost, spy cost, bb penalty, prestige penalty), you want another one? i dare say i don't know why the few options the ai has to impede your growth would need weakening.

I don't see how this really impedes growth (if the player is big, it really didn't impede his growth). If it's true that spy actions tend to be irrelevant for the AI, then it would seem better to do something else like removing the "lucky nation" concept and just make that the standard bonus (or add it on top of existing bonuses) for AI nations. Having tougher troops, better economies, and even tech advantages would do more to slow down the player than spamming spies.

 

[unmerged(9145)]

I have no idea why you'd think I was asking for a mod

I thought you might be asking for a SOLUTION to something that's annoying you in-game. I don't know you and didn't have the first clue whether you could mod or not so I made a suggestion in that regard. Silly me.

The idea being you post your ideas, the forum loves them, Paradox agrees, and it gets added in a patch. Of course, that rarely happens, but the chance is there.

Well then, chalk me down as a "nay" vote. I can't recall a single treaty during the time frame of the game which effectively shut down espionage actions as part and parcel of the settlement. Since the game is supposed to be loosely based on European history, adding this condition to the peace process (and making it actually effective) would be more in the realm of fantasy than anything else.

A change I would propose is to make counterspies more effective, especially if the AI doesn't actually pay for spy actions. That way a lazy player would still take the hits, but one who puts some effort into defense will rest easier. If a player doesn't bother to defend himself against spy actions then it's no different than disbanding your army and foolishly expecting that no one will invade your defenseless kingdom.

That's an action, btw, which can easily be modded into the game right now. But I guess you already know that.

Max

 

[Darkrenown]

I can't recall a single treaty during the time frame of the game which effectively shut down espionage actions as part and parcel of the settlement.

Well the game's espionage doesn't cover passive spying, only active sabotage. Do you have any evidence to suggest it was common for most wars in this period to be followed by an extended campaign of sabotage against the victor by the loser (discounting unrest in any occupied provinces, that's covered by revolt risk)?

 

[unmerged(73643)]

The real problem is that the spy actions that reduce stability and cause inflation are overpowered, especially in MP. They are like tactical nukes and impossible to effectively countered.

 

[Secret Master]

Darkrenown:

I happen to agree that something is off when espionage can occur without consequences during the period of a peace treaty. When the loser does it to the victor, it appears suicidal, but it is just as silly the other way. Imagine a scenario in which the victor in the war continues to use spies to damage the defeated the country. Unless victory was total (and if it was, it would result in annexation or vassalization), it's ridiculous to think that such behavior would not result in a revival of hostilities. It violates the spirit in which EU treaties are meant to be used in game.

A real solution would require a reworking of the .exe, as a mod cannot do all of the things I am about to suggest.

1) If a spy is used during a treaty, and is discovered, the victim gets a one-time chance to DOW without any stability penalty, regardless of treaty status or other considerations. If the chance is not taken, the treaty remains in effect. It might be wise to limit this to certain kinds of spy actions, as we might not think that all spy actions are worthy of a casus belli.

2) If a spy is used but is not discovered, no action is taken (you can't DOW if you don't know who is responsible).

3) AI would need to be taught how to deal with this responsibly. Refusing to send during treaties at all would be the easy way. Always DOWing when truce is violated would be a bad idea, however, due to potential abuse by humans.

4) Bad Boys might become victims for spies during truce periods, as the AI should be told to send Sow Discontent spies even during a truce. Sure, the human can start the war again, but we all know how ugly it can get when war exhaustion combines with -3 stability.

 

[NikkTheTrick]

Especially when I modified negative stability to be +5 RR per point

 

[Darkrenown]

Yeah, Secret Master, that's pretty much what I'd like to see, although it'd be important the AI would only risk spying during a truce if the discover chance was low or if it felt it would win if it got DoWed over it. If the AI couldn't be made to understand that it'd be better just to make a blanket no spys during a truce policy.

In other news it seems the AI's free spys is intended, not a bug so unless something changes you'll just have to deal with spy spam.