What do you think about this video? What was the range of Christianity in CKII timeframe? How far they got Nestorian missionaries (Tibet, Mongolia, China)?
Spread of Christianity
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Communism alongside religions? LOL
I think the video covers areas "touched" by the spread of Christianity, even if barely (e.g. China) while it seems very slow at covering places such as Middle Ages Rus'.
I think the video covers areas "touched" by the spread of Christianity, even if barely (e.g. China) while it seems very slow at covering places such as Middle Ages Rus'.
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At least the Soviet, especially Stalinist, era communism fits nicely.
Holy scriptures, check. Object of worship, check. Prophecy of certain victory, check. Semi-divine heroes/saints, check. Missionaries to foreign countries, check. Severe punishments to heretics, check.
Of course North Korea would be even better but in all honesty they have moved pretty far beyond communism decades ago and into straight up religion.
EDIT: I of course mean this humorously and am not interested in getting into an extensive discussion on the definition of religion or the doctrines of other totalitarian ideologies such as communism.
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It also shows the Roman and Mongol Empires, I think it's just trying to depict widespread secular influences on the spread of religion. Of course, it's hardly exhaustive in this but I don't think it implies anything any more than it implies "Mongols" is a religion.
As to the video itself, it looks like it isn't using consistent data; Lithuania remains outside Christendom for centuries but China is supposedly Christianised multiple times. A Nestorian minority counts but the freaking Teutonic Order doesn't? I'd expect this is due to having access to more detailed accounts of the latter than the former.
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Also the data seem to show where christianity might be not the area where they are a majority. Scandinavia did not all turn catholic by 1066 e.g.
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"Scandinavia did not all turn catholic by 1066 e.g."
No, Denmark turned a 100 years before that, so did parts of southern sweden and parts of Norway, and hey they show it like that. By 1066 most of Southern and Middle Scandinavia was predominantly Christian, and the map does show northern parts non-christian in 1066. But I agree it use a different standard for Europe/Middle East than for the rest of Asia.
No, Denmark turned a 100 years before that, so did parts of southern sweden and parts of Norway, and hey they show it like that. By 1066 most of Southern and Middle Scandinavia was predominantly Christian, and the map does show northern parts non-christian in 1066. But I agree it use a different standard for Europe/Middle East than for the rest of Asia.
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First, as is customary, I apologise for any discrepancies of my English.
Second all of this below can be dismissed if we take into account that in Lithuanian cities often lived many of orthodox russians (merchants, artisans...)
But if we do not then this rant below will explain better:
Teutonic order was mainly in Prussia, not Lithuania. Also the most real date of christianisation of Lithuania is 1387 by Jogaila and Vytautas. The video shows that christianity comes to territory of "real" Lithuania (not samogitia) in about 1230s, when Mindaugas and his family officially converted in 1250-1251. The issue is that Mindaugas rejected christianity in 1261, expelled almost all christians (german, not lithuanian) from Lithuania took Samogitia back and restarted wars with Teutonic order.
Now you could say that christianity still "stayed" in Lithuania when Mindaugas son Vaišelga (or Vaišvilkas) regained power in 1264. He was an orthodox christian and ruled Lithuania along with dukes of Halicz-Volhynia and Pinsk. In 1267 he renounced the throne in favour of his brother-in-law Shvarno Danilovich. The same year he was killed in an argument by duke Lev Danilovich. Some historians claim that the argument was about the question of power in Lithuania because Shvarn was already dead or incapable in 1267(.
However in 1268-1270 pagan lithuanian Traidenis took the throne and Lithuania continued being officially pagan until 1387. (if you don't count many christian lithuanian-russians and foreigners living in cities).
In conclusion: The video is (moderately) right and the only reason I wrote is because of my love for early Lithuanian history
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The video is a nice visualization, but it is filled with inaccuracies. Some of the most obvious examples are that Japan is claimed to be Christian in the modern day, when it is usually estimated at less than 1% Christian (ambitious estimates may go up to 3%) and that Nestorianism is portrayed as dominating Central Asia, when most evidence suggest it was never more than a significant minority in a Buddhist-majority society.
Since the spread of Nestorianism is the part of the video that seems to attract the most interest, and it is portrayed inaccurately, I would say the video doesn't have a whole lot of informational value, although it does portray things that are well known already in an interesting way.
Since the spread of Nestorianism is the part of the video that seems to attract the most interest, and it is portrayed inaccurately, I would say the video doesn't have a whole lot of informational value, although it does portray things that are well known already in an interesting way.
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Well in Central Asia (if including Mongolia) Nestorianism was pretty important among some Mongol clans and I believe they had significant minorities in one of the khanates in central asia before the mongols in addition I believe some turkish tribes converted to nestorianism though I do not remember the timeframe. Nestorianism does need fleshed out more
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I can settle the debate.
"Communism" was shown as the fullest realization of the Third Rome, given that both the First and the Second have also been displayed on the map on appropriate dates.
"Communism" was shown as the fullest realization of the Third Rome, given that both the First and the Second have also been displayed on the map on appropriate dates.
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I'm always surprised how someone can be such a big fan of thing like paradox games and support communism...
Gobble up everything capitalism spews yet put on the furry Russian hats and flaunt around like a child afterward with nonsensical debate points
Gobble up everything capitalism spews yet put on the furry Russian hats and flaunt around like a child afterward with nonsensical debate points
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If your definition of communism comes down to "furry Russian hats" your cheap provocation does not even deserve a proper response.
Also if you see paradox games as "capitalist spit" what are YOU doing here?
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Because its these ones that gobble up every pop culture item that comes up yet want to wail about this problem or that.
They generally idolize the most vile cultures in the modern world and then want to put on the puritanical hat like anyone wont call them out on it.
Added: Also because I have ineligible reservations about the capitalist system but I know better than to align myself with such a flawed ideology. Moreover, why don't you ask a communist why they enjoy art(video games) when they seek the distruction of such as well as individual liberties that flourish such products. And not only such destructive pursuits but the eradication of the very concept of individualism and independent thought and the indoctrination of their holy mantra which will impose forced equality
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Thank you for sharing your expertise! I do apologise if I was overly flippant, but I believe the video still does not represent this history in a consistent fashion. Notably, there is no retraction of Christianity around 1261 when as you say the German Christians were expelled. Contrast this to Christianity being shown to completely withdraw from China in the 15th century. This is just one example of similar events in Lithuania and China being depicted differently (my previous post was drawing attention to the presence of Christianity rather than the absence but the same complaint applies either way). Because the meaning of "spread" is somewhat ambiguous, it can be true that any specific area viewed in isolation appears accurate, but when compared with other areas it is clear that the "spread of Christianity" is not measured in a consistent manner. As I said above, I believe this is due to a reliance on very different sources with their own differing levels of depth. Indeed, I believe the creators of this video likely knew more about Lithuanian history than they did about Chinese history, because of this difference in sources.
I believe this video has inaccuracies. Within the first few seconds, for instance, we see Roman Syria and Judea becoming Christian. This is in spite of the fact that this was around the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt, when the Jewish majority in the region revolted and was largely expelled (although, Jews were said to have held majority in the region until the 6th century). Likewise, Judaism is suppressed across Arabia in favor of Christianity in the video as well. Many Arab tribes converted to Judaism to remain neutral between Persia and Byzantium, and Judaism was the dominant religion along Hedjaz and into Yemen (Himyar). It even held some sway in Mesopotamia and Egypt, although not nearly as much.
Likewise, I have my doubts that such large swathes of China converted to Christianity like that, and I do believe that Japan is mostly Shinto nowadays. South Korea is mostly irreligious, and in combination with their Buddhists, is roughly 3/4 of the population. India is firmly Hindu, which is one of their larger problems when dealing with Pakistan.
Look, I think I've made my point here.
Likewise, I have my doubts that such large swathes of China converted to Christianity like that, and I do believe that Japan is mostly Shinto nowadays. South Korea is mostly irreligious, and in combination with their Buddhists, is roughly 3/4 of the population. India is firmly Hindu, which is one of their larger problems when dealing with Pakistan.
Look, I think I've made my point here.
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