[SPOILER] Defense: Panzyr campaign mission feedback

[MisterSlanky]

I immediately looked up this thread (and here it was!) when I finished this mission.

To quote the flavor text of the Charger, I consider this mission an "abject failure in mission design". I succeeded on the side mission objective (the commando APC) only through relads.

The first time I did the mission I heard the warning about saving the hospital during the briefing. I thought "okay, I'll start positioning mechs". I started marching my medium towards the side objective, taking shots at the APCs I'm required to take down for the main objective while I'm at it. Then we get the notice that the APC is on the way - I start jumping to gain more ground. I lost the objective without even having the APC in sight.

Learning from my mistake the second time I brought the fast-medium again, but this time I started full-out sprinting towards the objective before they even told me that the APC had landed. When it was one turn-out (that bend it comes around is a pain in the behind) I was in medium/long range but could only land LRM hits. That wasn't enough - and I failed the objective again.

So the next time I pulled out my Firestarter. This Mech I also moved immediately, but the route I took apparently wasn't optimal enough because I was only in ML range. Two ML lasers when one misses isn't enough.

So I did it with the Firestarter again. This time I got in nice and close! I thought I was good - but I guess I should have precise struck, because the weapon spread across the armor wasn't enough - time to restart yet again.

It was only through four failed attempts, and pulling out an ability I don't particularly like using (Precise Strike) that I was able to take it out.

Abject failure in mission design.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

I did the side mission at the hospital barracks by using a 5xJJ Wolverine with a 100m Rangefinder, a PPC++, an ML++, and an LRM++, and a Master Tactician / Evasive pilot, sprinting up the hill twice, and then jumping over the walls to hit the APC with the Alpha strike. The AI mechs were completely confused, and mostly ran right by me trying to get to the "main" fight at the bottom of the hill. And the ones who did engage couldn't hit her.

Given what I saw in playthrough videos of this mission, I wasn't going to mess around, I just answered cheese with cheese.

 

[Skrimgeour]

I knew this mission was going to be tough. I have had fun doing other contracts and the main story when time allows and just wanted to share a note of hope.

My lance was 3 Highlanders (Star League, Missile Boat and Death (AC/20 and SRMs)) and a Grasshopper. I managed to save the hospital by Vigilance sprinting, jumping my Grasshopper right for the Hospital.

He took some hits, but not too bad. On the turn before the APC was going to crash into the hospital, I jumped onto the wall and hit it with all my medium lasers from max range. It barely worked, but it did.

As for the rest... Light mechs meet 3 Highlanders. Oh and the Grasshopper could then just turn around the alpha strike the backs of the mechs he ran by.

A definite challenge but doable even with a heavy.

Skrimgeour

 

[stjobe]

Learning from my mistake the second time I brought the fast-medium again, but this time I started full-out sprinting towards the objective before they even told me that the APC had landed. When it was one turn-out (that bend it comes around is a pain in the behind)

You should have cut cross-country up the hill to the left of the road instead, I made it easily with two sprints and jump in a Grasshopper.

 

[Green Knight]

A Grashopper or battlemaster is fast enough for the secondary mission.

The main mission is laughably easy: stand your ground with bulwark and blow the apcs up. They have weak armour.

The only other opponents are mostly light mechs.

 

[IceSerpent]

A Grashopper or battlemaster is fast enough for the secondary mission.

The main mission is laughably easy: stand your ground with bulwark and blow the apcs up. They have weak armour.

The only other opponents are mostly light mechs.

Agreed. I sent an Orion up to the hospital. Didn't even have JJs on it - just sprinted there and took out that APC without any trouble.

 

[CountwoKing]

I used 2 light mechs and 2 assults mechs cleared easily, Block the front entrance and let one of the other assaults take the brunt of the damage and the light mechs harrassing and optional objectives.

 

[Frothingslosh]

I went in with the Highlander, an AC-20/4ML Orion, a 2xLRM-20/2ML Orion, and a 7ML/6MG Grashopper.

The first three mechs were all piloted by lancers, while the Grasshopper was piloted by a Scout (for the +1 initiative) who also had +20% run speed from piloting as well as Called Shot Mastery.

Defending the base was straightforward - the Highlander blocked the left entry, the AC-20 Orion blocked the front entry, and the LRM-20 Orion blocked the right entry, but faced toward the battle. The Grasshopper sprinted up the road, ignoring the light lance near the barracks.

The APCs were easy enough to stop, as they all swarmed the left and front entrances and were easy to kill without moving, since they REALLY can't take an AC-20 to any location, the Highlander had enough firepower that I never needed to focus fire with it, and any APC's that stopped right in front of a blocker got stomped. By sprinting until the commandos were just outside the base, the Grasshopper got close enough that it could jump into the base, use Precision Fire, and punch through the front armor with all 7 medium lasers. It probably wouldn't have worked without CSM, and the +1 and +3 accuracy lasers probably helped.

I beat the mission on my first try, but if I hadn't seen this thread and known what was coming, I would almost certainly have failed it at least once.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

Three entrances?

I only saw two.

 

[William Pryde]

My biggest gripe with this mission is that one round of bad luck on turn one can end it for you, as I found out on my fourth campaign playthrough. Though I fired a load of heavy weapons at one of the APCs on turn one (80%+ to hit chance for each), there was a lot of damage spread and a lot of misses. I thought I was good (there still seemed to be a lot of road between the APC and the command center), but lo and behold the entryway I thought I had blocked was somehow still open and on turn two the APC zooms up to the command center and I get a game over.

I personally do not mind such design in non-critical missions where you can withdraw and failure does not mean game over, but for a later critical mission where failure means game over I could see how this could frustrate a lot of players, especially if there was an ironman mode. This is the only mission I allow myself to reload on my self-imposed ironman runthroughs.

 

[Frothingslosh]

Three entrances?

I only saw two.

There are actually four, one in each wall. The APCs only went toward the front and left ones, however.

 

[RWolfAU]

Just did this one, and lost a couple of DHS to it :/ but thanks to the help here I only failed once I didn't think the first APC would get all the way there before I could move again, and my assault was maybe 2 spots off getting into place in time

 

[commuterzombie]

Those APCs certainly are speedy! I think that if I hadn't reserved down on my first turn (prompting the APCs behind the dropship to move around into sensor range) I would have been in trouble if I hadn't made all my shots. If anyone is interested in watching the playthrough it's here:

In terms of the design of the mission, I think it illustrates the need for a UI element that shows you how far an enemy can move. Perhaps if you right-click an enemy to view its info you could see all the hexes it could move to via normal movement & jumping? It wouldn't just be helpful here but also in situations where you are trying to stay out of melee range.

 

[kravi]

I read this thread, and launched with 3 assaults and a medium (shadowhawk). Sent the shadowhawk jumping to the barracks while two assaults took up position at the entries to the base. The third roamed. None of the APCs got close before they were blown up, the enemy mechs were just a nuisance, and all went smoothly. I shouldn't have bothered blocking the entryway as the APCs never got that close.

If I hadn't read this thread it would have sucked. So thanks for all your feedback, y'all!

 

[MajorPrankster]

I loved this mission because it was challenging and took a few tries to beat.

What I do not understand is why people think something hard or different is 'wrong', that thought process simply does not compute in my brain.

I realize modern video games are generally more entertainment than game, but I just don't get this idea that a game situation is 'wrong' because you have to figure out how to beat it, even if, *gasp* you have to change your strategy.

I guess I just don't understand why people think all the missions have to be easy/the same/follow a pattern because I love it when they are different challenges.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

It's not that it's hard or different that makes it "wrong".

It's that it requires a very specific set of actions that you have no way of really knowing unless you've failed it a few times or read spoilers.

This isn't a platformer.


And it randomly goes against the grain of the careful, methodical approach most of the missions, procgen or story, tend to teach the player -- which would be fine or even a good thing, if we got better pre-drop intelligence and maps than we do right now. (Think, MW3's detailed pre-mission briefings.)

 

[MajorPrankster]

It's not that it's hard or different that makes it "wrong".

It's that it requires a very specific set of actions that you have no way of really knowing unless you've failed it a few times or read spoilers, and it randomly goes against the grain of the careful, methodical approach most of the missions, procgen or story, tend to tech the player.

This isn't a platformer.

Eh, I simply don't see it that way.

I am a mercenary that takes on missions from random people for random things so the objectives and the tools and techniques used, I expect to be random, even if I have to use one that is not a personal favorite.

The entire thought-concept that a video game is forcing me to to do anything is just not something that computes with me, I play them for fun, the game situations simply present themselves as puzzles to solve.

By saying something requires a specific set of actions that are contrary to the perceived norm and that is why it should be changed, is in my PoV calling it wrong for being different.

The mere fact you compare it to a trying to imitate a plat-former as a negative shows me that there is an expectation of a certain set of mission types.

It never entered my mind to equate this mission to a plat-former and after doing it 10 times or more, I still don't.

Why should we magically know the way to solve any of these missions?
I simply do not see this aversion to failing a mission simply because you have to figure it out - is that not the point of playing a game?

 

[Max_Killjoy]

Eh, I simply don't see it that way.

I am a mercenary that takes on missions form random people for random things so the objectives and the tools and techniques used, i expect to be random, even if I have to use on that is not a person favorite.

The entire thought-concept that a video game is forcing me to to do anything is just not something that computes with me, I play them for fun, the game situations simply present themselves as puzzles to solve.

By saying something requires a specific set of actions that are contrary to the perceived norm and that is why it should be changed, is in my PoV calling it wrong for being different.

The mere fact you compare it to a trying to imitate a plat-former as a negative shows me that there is an expectation of a certain set of mission types.

It never entered my mind to equate this mission to a plat-former and after doing it 10 times or more, I still don't.

Why should be magically know the way to solve any of these missions?
I simply do not see this aversion to failing a mission simply because you have to figure it out - is that not the point of playing a game?

I clarified my comments above just a bit.

* The comparison to a platformer was based on the fact that suddenly there's this mission where if you don't get every little thing, from movement to timing to position, exactly correct, then you fail and have to start over. And over. And over. Until you figure it out. That's not good game design, it never was, most platformers were garbage. Gone is the tactical flexibility of almost all other missions. Name for me another mission where you need to park your mechs in a bottletech to block APCs?

* There's nothing wrong with having to figure it out, as long as it can be figured out on the fly without repeated failures.

* The way the APCs can just run past, park, and magically deploy invisible immortal infantry, is ridiculous.

* And if we had any sort of actual pre-mission intelligence and briefing, instead of just "drop here and fight stuff, lol", then the actual risks could be laid out for the player and they could face the challenge with some thinking instead of blindly flailing at it through repeated failures until they stumbled on the fact that the APCs can't get past a pair of parked mechs in the front entrance. Seriously, just map of the combat zone pre-drop would have been invaluable.

Seriously, give me a tactical officer, instead of a glorified bean-counter.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...iss-from-mechwarrior-3.1099709/#post-24267299
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-briefing-improvements.1099716/#post-24283461

 

[MajorPrankster]

I clarified my comments above just a bit.

* The comparison to a platformer was based on the fact that suddenly there's this mission where if you don't get every little thing, from movement to timing to position, exactly correct, then you fail and have to start over. And over. And over. Until you figure it out. That's not good game design, it never was, most platformers were garbage. Gone is the tactical flexibility of almost all other missions. Name for me another mission where you need to park your mechs in a bottletech to block APCs?

* There's nothing wrong with having to figure it out, as long as it can be figured out on the fly without repeated failures.

* The way the APCs can just run past, park, and magically deploy invisible immortal infantry, is ridiculous.

* And if we had any sort of actual pre-mission intelligence and briefing, instead of just "drop here and fight stuff, lol", then the actual risks could be laid out for the player and they could face the challenge with some thinking instead of blindly flailing at it through repeated failures until they stumbled on the fact that the APCs can't get past a pair of parked mechs in the front entrance. Seriously, just map of the combat zone pre-drop would have been invaluable.

Seriously, give me a tactical officer, instead of a glorified bean-counter.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...iss-from-mechwarrior-3.1099709/#post-24267299
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-briefing-improvements.1099716/#post-24283461

So, TBH, better intelligence on what to drop would bore me to tears.

I realize from many of your posts, you detest having anything in the game that cannot be given a logical explanation, on your terms.

We simply differ in what we want from our entertainment.

I can come up with so many reasons in the story-line/world why any of these things happen...it drives my imagination, rather than frustrating me because it is not what I expected.

 

[Yeach]

Ha and this is where the Banshee shines.
Immediately sprint to get to that left barracks. sprint-sprint-jump (over wall) and fire.
The other assault mechs (with multi-shot) defending can take care of the other APCs.

Only poor design of the mission is the warning about the enemy getting to the left barrack; game gives the warning, the next turn they are basically there.