Split Culture into Language & Ethnicity

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dherve10

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"Culture" is far too vague, and that vagueness makes the "change culture" button sound like genocide, I think splitting culture up into two separate entities will make things more realistic and historical as the prevalence of many languages changed greatly during this time period, while the people and cultures in most areas typically stayed the same or similar.

1. Language - Self explanatory, in 1444 there were many many dialects and languages, particularly in places like Italy, France, Germany, etc, changing a province's language would work similarly to how culture conversion works now, except much less expensive, less time consuming, with a revolt risk during conversion, and with a thirty year cool-down, similar to the religious conversion cool-down introduced in 1.12. Languages can only become accepted if their provinces provide 20% (10% with Humanism) of your total development.

2. Ethnicity - The actual people, their culture, etc, this will remain static, only changed by rare events or decisions, such as Russian migration into former Horde territory, or the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople. An Ethnicity only become accepted if one of three conditions are met. The first requires them to provide 20% of your total development, Humanism will reduce this to 10%, they will become accepted regardless of language spoken if this condition is met. The second requires them to speak your language, even if they only provide 0.1% of your total development they will passively become accepted after twenty years if all your owned provinces of that ethnicity speak your national language. The third requires owning all provinces inhabited by a specific ethnicity and having them all speak your language, fulfilling this condition will have them become accepted instantly.

Revolt risk - A province with an unaccepted language & ethnicity will have a high revolt risk, enforcing your language will reduce the revolt risk by 2/3 and remove most penalties, however during the conversion process you will see a increased revolt risk, similar to when converting religion.

Example of province with unaccepted language & ethnicity:
+3 Revolt Risk
-10% Manpower
-20% Trade power
-20% Tax/Production/Trade Income
+10% Development cost

Example of Province with just an unaccepted ethnicity:
+1 Revolt Risk
-10% Manpower

But what about cultural unions? They will be split into minor and greater unions, for example France is a lesser union, all French ethnicites see France as their home land, automatically making them accepted, but the various French dialects and Occitan will only be partially accepted, giving you only half the regular penalties. An example of a greater union is Hindustan and Ming/Qing China, both of these will not only accept all associated ethnicites, but all associated languages as well.

Example scenario: France starts the game with only a small portion of it's nation speaking French, part of France's long term goals will be establishing French as the national language by replacing the various dialects in the north, and Occitan in the south, with standard French, as it did historically during the later parts of this period, they could potentially be aided in this by their second idea, French Language in all courts, which could potentially provide 20% cheaper language conversion in place of the current benefits.

Possible new feature: Diplomatic Language, unlocked at Diplomatic Tech 16, and based on the presence of a dominate diplomatic lingua franca in Europe during the later half of this period, it would provide a minor boost to relations and the speed of relation improvement between nations that share the same Diplomatic Language, part of expanding your influence in the mid-late game could be making your language a world language, similar to English today and French in very late parts of this period.

Please tell me what you think of this!

Although I agree that something needs to be done, defining the provinces as only one language and one ethnicity still seems to not represent the fact that multiple languages and ethnicities exist in any given province. Furthermore, I understand paradox's idea of culture being a set of customs (including language), not a particular ethnicity. Ethnic Britons that are assimilated into Saxon culture become culturally Saxon, without killing the majority of the population.

I think the game would be better served by trying to represent multiple groups at one time. I'd appreciate it if you commented on my idea to include minor cultures and religions in provinces here:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...igions-to-increase-province-diversity.859753/

By representing multiple groups, there is less tendency to imagine that anyone but the primary is wiped out.
 
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Why are people always assuming that Change Culture is "genocide?" It's OBVIOUSLY assimilation. That's why it costs DIPLOMATIC Points instead of Military Points. Not to mention that it has no impact on Unrest or the province's productivity.

So no, you aren't "replacing" anybody. You're teaching the citizens a different set of customs and a different language.

Think of it as being like what Mussolini did in Italy in the mid-1900s. He didn't shove Sicilians into ovens or gun down Tuscans next to ditches in order to enforce the generic Italian culture. He united it through government policies that promoted a national culture.
 
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Kombatdoctr

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Although I agree that something needs to be done, defining the provinces as only one language and one ethnicity still seems to not represent the fact that multiple languages and ethnicities exist in any given province. Furthermore, I understand paradox's idea of culture being a set of customs (including language), not a particular ethnicity. Ethnic Britons that are assimilated into Saxon culture become culturally Saxon, without killing the majority of the population.

I think the game would be better served by trying to represent multiple groups at one time. I'd appreciate it if you commented on my idea to include minor cultures and religions in provinces here:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...igions-to-increase-province-diversity.859753/

By representing multiple groups, there is less tendency to imagine that anyone but the primary is wiped out.
I'm all for multiple cultures being represented in a province, however I don't think Paradox would ever do that for EU IV, it doesn't fit with EU IV's simpler game design, everything is just an abstract representation, as opposed to the more detailed statistics and lists of Vic 2 or HOI, which is why I proposed only splitting culture into two separate things, it keeps things simple while giving enough details for things to make sense.

The situation you described could actually be replicated using what I wrote in the OP, the language would change from Breton to Saxon, and then later on a event could trigger to swap the ethnicity.

While we're talking about Bretons.. this would also better represent the situation that mainland Bretons faced, their Celtic language was replaced with French yet they still retained much of their native culture, the same thing happened to the Welsh and Irish, although both their cultures were damaged by the English.

or just split culture into Culture and Language, Ethinicity doesn't make a huge difference at all...
Ethnicity is essentially culture, but it goes deeper, as per the meaning of the word. Although I guess just keeping the name culture works too.

Why are people always assuming that Change Culture is "genocide?" It's OBVIOUSLY assimilation. That's why it costs DIPLOMATIC Points instead of Military Points. Not to mention that it has no impact on Unrest or the province's productivity.

So no, you aren't "replacing" anybody. You're teaching the citizens a different set of customs and a different language.

Think of it as being like what Mussolini did in Italy in the mid-1900s. He didn't shove Sicilians into ovens or gun down Tuscans next to ditches in order to enforce the generic Italian culture. He united it through government policies that promoted a national culture.
Because throughout all of history only a very tiny number of people were assimilated like that, most people just ended up being killed or deported, especially during this period of time, in a game focused around conquest and military might just pressing a button to replace an entire culture sounds suspicious and almost sinister.
 
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Because throughout all of history only a very tiny number of people were assimilated like that, most people just ended up being killed or deported, especially during this period of time, in a game focused around conquest and military might just pressing a button to replace an entire culture sounds suspicious and almost sinister.

You are very wrong about this. You are using ethnicity and genetics as interchangeable concepts in this discussion. Stop that. Genetics have only defined ethnicity very recently, and even then it is common to separate the 2. Genetic studies have shown that the so-called "mass migrations" of pre-19th century were usually not massive at all. Rather important people moved about and populations assimilated to them, especially after conquest.

It is easiest to assume that the Culture and Religion given in EU4 is always about the local nobility, not the peasantry. For the time period, if peasants delivered food and other goods to the nobles, then they were generally left alone. No one cared what language they spoke or what fairy tales they told children. Religion is a different topic in this time period, I won't get into it. So assume that when a culture is being converting marriages are happening, that local nobles are being replaced, that clergy and entertainers of the new culture are moving in, that local customs are changing. Any number of things that have nothing to do with genocide.
 
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Lemont Elwood

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Because throughout all of history only a very tiny number of people were assimilated like that, most people just ended up being killed or deported, especially during this period of time, in a game focused around conquest and military might just pressing a button to replace an entire culture sounds suspicious and almost sinister.

"In a game focused around conquest and military might, just pressing a button to replace an entire religion sounds suspicious and almost sinister."
"In a game focused around conquest and military might, just pressing a button to increase political stability sounds suspicious and almost sinister."
"In a game focused around conquest and military might, just pressing a button to decrease the public's war exhaustion sounds suspicious and almost sinister."

You're only seeing what you want to. The assimilation is unrealistically effective, but that's just a problem with the game design. Much like how a province is 100% heathen one day and 100% state religion the next.
 

YuriiH

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Rather helpful offer to think about.
"1. Language - Self explanatory,
HOWEVER, do you even realise that English in 15th century is different from English at the beginning of the 19th century?
Do you realise that the French Language spoken currently was 'created' in the 17th century?
Or the example of Russian, which was made only in the mid 18th by several Russian scientists, and up to Napoleonic wars the whole Russian nobility had spoken French only (while the Russian language in its diversity had been for peasants).
Or Hindustan where every state currently has its own language and culture.
I won't even mention various languages in Arabian countries or the Chinese diversity.
Language is soooooo fluent during the period of the EU4 game.
 
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While it would be very fun and interesting to have a detailed map of languages and ethnicities of the world from the 15th century to the 19th century (EU4 really has improved my geography skills quite a bit, and I'm very sure I'm not alone in that!) I don't think it would improve gameplay much. Here's why... Language and ethnicity does not matter directly. What matters is Identity. Language and ethnicity of course is often a large part of someone's identity, but it's important to remember that only identity directly matters. What defines an identity, or nation, is different from nation to nation, and time to time. For example, the swiss identity does not emphasise language very much, but is instead more civic in nature. The German identity is based on language, and the austrian (sub) identity differentates itself from the rest of the germans by emphasising their habsburg and catholic heritage. To be swedish (that is, being accepted into "the nation" by other swedes) used to require also being a protestant, but nowadays being catholic or even jewish is okay: the swedish identity no longer emphasise protestantism as such. There are of course different layers of identities, and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive: One can be austrian and german for example. Wheter they base their identity on race, language, culture, religion, history, geography or whatever, and in any combination, the important part is that they have such an identity, not what it is based upon. That is why dividing the map up into languages and ethnicities would be mostly meaningless, because people do not always identity based on those. For example, danish, swedish and norwegian are rather similar both as languages and cultures, but as identities they are very, very independent from eachother. On the other hand, there are great differences in language between germans (perhaps as big as between danish and swedish if not more), yet they have a stronger german identity.

of course, drawing such a map would also be difficult, especially since there are layers of identity and that they change over time, but it would in my view be more meaningful and easier than a map of languages and ethnicities. Because we must remember that culture in eu4 is trying to portray. It is basically trying to show how one group feels their occupiers are evil foreigners. To take swedes and danes as an example, it does not matter how close swedish and danish are culturally and as languages, because the danish peasants FEEL danish and not swedish, and that's why they rebelled. In other words, identities as such are not logical or rational, because they are not determined by how closely related cultures and languages actually are (though it plays part), but by how people feel. it's all just feelings, not much thought.

If you draw a map of languages, you might have to classify on area as "early new central german" but that would be wholly meaningless since even though that is a very accurate description of the language spoken there, no one identified as an early new central german.
 
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Good luck dividing Precolombian civilisations and Subsaharan Africa, two parts of the world we have very limited historical knowledge of, basing on two separate (and kinda eurocentric) cultural indicators. Go on, do a research, it will be fun :p

However my main problem with this idea is different.

It doesn't enhance the gameplay in meaningful way, because it concentrates not on 'what game needs' but on meta historical issues of ethno-linguistic divisions.

It is essentially 'double current cultural % mechanic and make it overcomplicated'. What is the point of introducing 2 instead of 1 indicator if one of them is going to be static and dependant on another anyway? In game you either get humanism or click 'culture convert' on a province. This change would make you either get humanism or click 'language convert' on a province, only this time this process will be less transparent and weirder.

Also do not underappreciate the amount of research needed to separate language and ethnic barriers in 15th century world. IMHO way too much effort for not enough gain.
 
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Lemont Elwood

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For my part, I think Ethnicity could play a useful role in the game, but not in the Old World. Here's my thoughts...

As it is, colonization more or less assumes that only people from your primary culture settle the colonies, and if you assimilate anybody, they become just as good citizens as anybody else. That's problematic, though, considering the historical relationship between Europeans, Aborigines, and Africans in the Americas. For a long time I've requested that cultures dynamically shift in Colonial Nations (to create things like "Mexicano"), and that there be slave and mulatto versions (like "Mexicano Mestijaze" and "Mexicano Africano").

The simplest way to go about this would be to tie it into province product type (like Sugar resulting in the African version appearing) and whether or not you spared the native population (or assimilated a settled native population). However, if I ran Paradox and had unlimited resources...

I would create a system where, in addition to a Culture breakdown (42% Castilian, 24% Andalusian, 34% Portuguese), Ethnicity would be measured, with three (and only three) ethnicities: Eurasian, African, and Amerindian. The point of it would actually be not to reflect the social consequences of a heterogeneous population, but the physical differences those races had, and how it impacted the cultural development of the Americas.

Basically, Africans would be the only Ethnicity capable of settling provinces with a "Malarial" (or "White Man's Graveyard") status.
Eurasians are generic.
Amerindians are susceptible to the Red Plague.

Because of this, Africa's whole interior could be represented, but Europeans and Amerindians wouldn't be able to access it (unless they converted over to Vicky II and waited to colonize), while Amerindian populations (Development, actual number of tags) could be substantially higher until Eurasians arrive and expose them.

There would also be the following "mixed" Ethnicities:
Eurasian + African = Mulatto
Eurasisan + Amerindian = Mestizo
African + Amerindian = Black Indian
Eurasian + African + Amerindian = Mixed

Amerindians can also "evolve," after an outbreak, into Immune Amerindians. Immune Amerindians are capable of breeding to create any other category, and are safe from the Red Plague.

Now, this all ties into colonial policy through a few rules. Africans, being of much hardier stock, are much more capable of producing cash crops. If you're playing a Eurasian colonial power, you can't very well trust the other races with full citizenship, so only Eurasians (or, you could say, only the primary ethnicity of a colonial power) are allowed to work in industrial-type jobs (like, say, Naval Supplies). Amerindians are generic.
 

zamieo

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Genocide(ask Timur) and repression of minorities was quite common around that time, converting stuff should add a province modifier "recently converted" that lowers tax and manpower provided by the province for some time.

Converting culture =/= genocide. That's population displacement, not converting a culture. Converting a culture means you make them appreciate your culture more than they appreciate their own culture, thereby calling themselves Roman, instead of Illyrians. For example.
 
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pikaemperor

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Converting culture =/= genocide. That's population displacement, not converting a culture. Converting a culture means you make them appreciate your culture more than they appreciate their own culture, thereby calling themselves Roman, instead of Illyrians. For example.
That is cultural assimilation, culture conversion is the forceful version ex: the colonization of the americas where the natives massacred or driven out of the lands which were then settle by the colonist.
 

Lemont Elwood

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Dude, the game doesn't represent natural processes. Or do you think that every time you increase Development, that represents ONLY government programs?
 

neondt

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Good luck dividing Precolombian civilisations and Subsaharan Africa, two parts of the world we have very limited historical knowledge of, basing on two separate (and kinda eurocentric) cultural indicators. Go on, do a research, it will be fun :p

However my main problem with this idea is different.

It doesn't enhance the gameplay in meaningful way, because it concentrates not on 'what game needs' but on meta historical issues of ethno-linguistic divisions.

It is essentially 'double current cultural % mechanic and make it overcomplicated'. What is the point of introducing 2 instead of 1 indicator if one of them is going to be static and dependant on another anyway? In game you either get humanism or click 'culture convert' on a province. This change would make you either get humanism or click 'language convert' on a province, only this time this process will be less transparent and weirder.

Also do not underappreciate the amount of research needed to separate language and ethnic barriers in 15th century world. IMHO way too much effort for not enough gain.

You're right, this would be a huge amount of extra work for no real reason.