Split Culture into Language & Ethnicity

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Kombatdoctr

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"Culture" is far too vague, and that vagueness makes the "change culture" button sound like genocide, I think splitting culture up into two separate entities will make things more realistic and historical as the prevalence of many languages changed greatly during this time period, while the people and cultures in most areas typically stayed the same or similar.

1. Language - Self explanatory, in 1444 there were many many dialects and languages, particularly in places like Italy, France, Germany, etc, changing a province's language would work similarly to how culture conversion works now, except much less expensive, less time consuming, with a revolt risk during conversion, and with a thirty year cool-down, similar to the religious conversion cool-down introduced in 1.12. Languages can only become accepted if their provinces provide 20% (10% with Humanism) of your total development.

2. Ethnicity - The actual people, their culture, etc, this will remain static, only changed by rare events or decisions, such as Russian migration into former Horde territory, or the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople. An Ethnicity only become accepted if one of three conditions are met. The first requires them to provide 20% of your total development, Humanism will reduce this to 10%, they will become accepted regardless of language spoken if this condition is met. The second requires them to speak your language, even if they only provide 0.1% of your total development they will passively become accepted after twenty years if all your owned provinces of that ethnicity speak your national language. The third requires owning all provinces inhabited by a specific ethnicity and having them all speak your language, fulfilling this condition will have them become accepted instantly.

Revolt risk - A province with an unaccepted language & ethnicity will have a high revolt risk, enforcing your language will reduce the revolt risk by 2/3 and remove most penalties, however during the conversion process you will see a increased revolt risk, similar to when converting religion.

Example of province with unaccepted language & ethnicity:
+3 Revolt Risk
-10% Manpower
-20% Trade power
-20% Tax/Production/Trade Income
+10% Development cost

Example of Province with just an unaccepted ethnicity:
+1 Revolt Risk
-10% Manpower

But what about cultural unions? They will be split into minor and greater unions, for example France is a lesser union, all French ethnicites see France as their home land, automatically making them accepted, but the various French dialects and Occitan will only be partially accepted, giving you only half the regular penalties. An example of a greater union is Hindustan and Ming/Qing China, both of these will not only accept all associated ethnicites, but all associated languages as well.

Example scenario: France starts the game with only a small portion of it's nation speaking French, part of France's long term goals will be establishing French as the national language by replacing the various dialects in the north, and Occitan in the south, with standard French, as it did historically during the later parts of this period, they could potentially be aided in this by their second idea, French Language in all courts, which could potentially provide 20% cheaper language conversion in place of the current benefits.

Possible new feature: Diplomatic Language, unlocked at Diplomatic Tech 16, and based on the presence of a dominate diplomatic lingua franca in Europe during the later half of this period, it would provide a minor boost to relations and the speed of relation improvement between nations that share the same Diplomatic Language, part of expanding your influence in the mid-late game could be making your language a world language, similar to English today and French in very late parts of this period.

Please tell me what you think of this!
 
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jye42

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I think the current system is sufficient. It is not perfectly accurate and a bit gamey but I think it works. If you really want to change the system to something that makes more sense I would do it this way.
Instead of manually changing the culture of every province, the culture of individual provinces cannot be changed (except for events) but you as a nation may attempt to force a culture to become accepted at the cost of revolt risk across all provinces you own.

In my opinion whether a culture becomes accepted is more about changing attitudes in the whole nation, not just because a certain percentage of people are a unique ethnicity.
 
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pikaemperor

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Genocide(ask Timur) and repression of minorities was quite common around that time, converting stuff should add a province modifier "recently converted" that lowers tax and manpower provided by the province for some time.
 
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Metz

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A province can't fully be this or that. They should have some sort of pie chart that shows the % of cultures in a province just like in Victoria 2.
 
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aruon

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i'd very much like to see this overhaul the abstract cultures of EU4. russia for example is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get any other culture into accepted unless you go for acceptance lowering ideas early at the expense of a secure country, strong military, and expanding territory. separating cultures into languages & ethnicities would be well worth even a 5 or 10 dollar DLC, let alone a much less abstracted and more accurate overhaul of the culture system.

having language and ethnicity makes it harder to convert a province to your people's looks (making it seem like an exotic and foreign) part of the country while language is much easy to teach, meaning that overall acceptance is easier.

also, adding a system for including provincial minorities & majorities would definately aid a ton. provincial majorities could slowly be changed with a MTTH function or even better, populations (which EU 2 had according to screenshots on google images) which would allow for migrations into a selected area ala Victoria 2.


colonization would get a partial but no less major overhaul which would be a would get a nice benefit as you could choose to colonize and develop a province in different ways centered around interactions with natives in exchange for benefits and drawbacks and maybe even ethnic melting pots resulting in new ethnicities within the colonists group.
here's my on the spot idea of ideal colonization (much like the kill-trade-treat option event); australia for example- natives are the Aborigines, colonists are english. your options:

1. colonize by force. this is how the british, armed with muskets and a superiority complex, conquered half the world. most native interactions are done at the end of a gun barrel. as a result, australian colonists remain firmly english in culture, language, and identity and comprise a vast, vast majority over the now almost extinct natives.

2. colonize by integration. the most amicable route, though some of the more closeminded colonists might balk at the prospect of not being superior form day one. colonists actively work with natives and bring civilization to a new land. much like the whole White Man's Burden thing but much more amicable and cooperative outlook instead of the god complex. as a result aboriginals remain the majority for some time before they are simply outnumbered by fresh colonists hearing about a colony with friendly natives. english and aborignal languages are both accepted and the possibility of a ethnic melting pot occurs with Aborigines, English, and an Anglo-Aboriginal fusion coming about due to assimilation.

3. colonize and trade. the middle route between options 1 and 2. more revenue, larger ethnic and linguistic dominance, much smaller chance at assimilation, higher base revolt risk.

4. i've got better things to do! anything goes. any of the above can happen anywhere, anytime


and yeah the generic "change culture" does kinda feel like a closeted genocide. once the conversion is done its like where the hell did everyone go?
 
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Kombatdoctr

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A province can't fully be this or that. They should have some sort of pie chart that shows the % of cultures in a province just like in Victoria 2.
IMO that's too exact for EU IV, the game is more about abstractions than fine details.

Although maybe some kind of majority/minority system could work, where there can be two cultures in a single province.

I think the current system is sufficient. It is not perfectly accurate and a bit gamey but I think it works. If you really want to change the system to something that makes more sense I would do it this way.
Instead of manually changing the culture of every province, the culture of individual provinces cannot be changed (except for events) but you as a nation may attempt to force a culture to become accepted at the cost of revolt risk across all provinces you own.

In my opinion whether a culture becomes accepted is more about changing attitudes in the whole nation, not just because a certain percentage of people are a unique ethnicity.
I kept the 20% and 10% stuff because that's how culture work now, personally I don't like it either but I can't think of an alternative right now that falls in line with the general theme of the rest of the game's mechanics.

Genocide(ask Timur) and repression of minorities was quite common around that time, converting stuff should add a province modifier "recently converted" that lowers tax and manpower provided by the province for some time.
Sure, but most areas did stay ethnically the same during this period, the areas that did not could be represented by events.
 
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IsadorBG

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But what about cultural unions? They will be split into minor and greater unions, for example France is a lesser union, all French ethnicites see France as their home land, automatically making them accepted, but the various French dialects and Occitan will only be partially accepted, giving you only half the regular penalties. An example of a greater union is Hindustan and Ming/Qing China, both of these will not only accept all associated ethnicites, but all associated languages as well.

I don't see how France is in anyway a lesser cultural union than India or China.

It is culturally more homogenous than both in 1444 ironically (and smaller too).

Example scenario: France starts the game with only a small portion of it's nation speaking French, part of France's long term goals will be establishing French as the national language by replacing the various dialects in the north, and Occitan in the south, with standard French, as it did historically during the later parts of this period, they could potentially be aided in this by their second idea, French Language in all courts, which could potentially provide 20% cheaper language conversion in place of the current benefits.]

In 1820 the majority of the French population did not speak French and I even doubt that there was any dramatical change since 1444 in that regards.

The industrial age is when this changed and is not in the timeframe.
 

IsadorBG

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France ended up enforcing a single language, which eventually ended up in the death or near extinction of many dialects, Germany did something similar, China and India did not, that's the difference.

Yes the Third Republic post 1870's did that.

However the Regime ruling France in Europa Universalis is far different and did not enforce French anymore than Mandarin was in China.

What happened after 1820 should have no bearing in EU4.

Edit: Actually you bring up an interesting point.

Are Russia, Germany, Italy and Great Britain also gonna be "lesser Union" then ?
 

Kombatdoctr

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Yes the Third Republic post 1870's did that.

However the Regime ruling France in Europa Universalis is far different and did not enforce French anymore than Mandarin was in China.

What happened after 1820 should have no bearing in EU4.

Edit: Actually you bring up an interesting point.

Are Russia, Germany, Italy and Great Britain also gonna be "lesser Union" then ?
Yes, they all ended up doing the same thing as France, one language, but they still considered themselves homes for their respective ethnicity's, well Russia, Germany, and Italy did, I think GB might have been mostly about the English, they tended to treat the other natives of the British Isles like dirt.
 

aruon

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I think GB might have been mostly about the English, they tended to treat the other natives of the British Isles like dirt.

the english treated almost everyone like dirt. and they had the spare troops to do it too. narcisissm and muskets were a match made in heaven london.:p
 
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"Culture" is far too vague, and that vagueness makes the "change culture" button sound like genocide
Care to elaborate why exactly this is a bad thing? You already can: declare war, kill their best men (aristocracy naturally made up a significant part of the army), carpet siege them, take their land and/or loot it, outright change their religion (obviously getting rid of the most stubborn ones unwilling to convert - or do you think missionaries convince people by candies?) and now say changing culture sounds "rude". Have I got it right?
 
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Nassau

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On the issue of language, the EU4 timeline was before the standard languages came into the world. During EU4 language was just a collection of dialects, with different written and spoken forms.

Culture was similar, it was very regional. The elite shared a culture and often a language, the lower class did as well, but to a much lesser degree.

So language like culture varied from city to city, from province to province and region to region.

I prefer the current way, where culture groups are like language groups, but within that group many dialects survive.

Actually, it would be wrong to draw a lot of similarities between the current day cultures and languages and those of the past. Culture, like language, was actively supported and implemented by the elite/ruling class and people inspired by nationalism and new ideas first seeing the light of day on the end of the EU4 timescale.

I believe the right way to look at it, is that the culture you see depicted in the province screen is the culture mostly of the elite and the ruling class.

In the Netherlands the elite spoke a sort of Dutch (that still varied from region to region) but was more similar to what was spoken by the elite in another province, than by the lower classes.

Just as French was a wide spoken language amongst the elite of many countries. In EU4 it doesn't really matter what the main population does, it matters what those with power do and say.
 
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Kombatdoctr

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Care to elaborate why exactly this is a bad thing? You already can: declare war, kill their best men (aristocracy naturally made up a significant part of the army), carpet siege them, take their land and/or loot it, outright change their religion (obviously getting rid of the most stubborn ones unwilling to convert - or do you think missionaries convince people by candies?) and now say changing culture sounds "rude". Have I got it right?
Genocide is far worse than all of those things, also it's a matter of consistency, Paradox tends to avoid genocide in their other games, just look at the HoI series.
 

Beta1001

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Would it not just be better if they created a system similar to Victoria 2? Or even better - a population system. I'm not saying copy everything, because I imagine in the 1500s they weren't trying to convert people to soldiers but just a simple system that would affect the rebels as well so you don't have say a 47K Stack spawning in a remote place in your country?

And also would that not be a little weird having English people speaking Manderin in the 1500s?
 

DicRoNero

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Genocide is far worse than all of those things, also it's a matter of consistency, Paradox tends to avoid genocide in their other games, just look at the HoI series.
But that's your own perception. Genocide definition includes, among other things, prohibiting natural growth - and carpet sieging implies precisely that. Should we remove carpet sieging and looting from the game for the sake of "consistency" (?) as well?

I, for one, reserve my right to have a perception different of yours. And within it culture conversion is just that - spreading X culture over the world. I don't care about the former cultures just like I don't care about the enemy soldiers getting stackwiped or the civilians starving during blockades. They all just cease to exist under certain game mechanics - and that's fine with me!
 

Nassau

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Cultures and languages have changed all the time. It is a natural process which has often been supported by governments and other groups in order to create unity amongst people. The Dutch elite for a time spoke French with each other, as did the elite in many other nations. In many nations it is still an on going process. And while you could say it is a bad thing, in the end a unified nation is better and less likely to have an internal war.
 

Kombatdoctr

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But that's your own perception. Genocide definition includes, among other things, prohibiting natural growth - and carpet sieging implies precisely that. Should we remove carpet sieging and looting from the game for the sake of "consistency" (?) as well?

I, for one, reserve my right to have a perception different of yours. And within it culture conversion is just that - spreading X culture over the world. I don't care about the former cultures just like I don't care about the enemy soldiers getting stackwiped or the civilians starving during blockades. They all just cease to exist under certain game mechanics - and that's fine with me!
Except it's not my own perception at all, most people find genocide as one of the worst things imaginable.

Culture conversion is genocide no matter how you look at it, you're "replacing" the original inhabitants with your own people.
 
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