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Martin_Mortyry

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This thread is expanded and rearranged form of my thoughts about improving Uzbek in EU4. The original thread you can find here.
This is not a duplicate post, the previous thread was more in form of an inquiry, this one is a suggestion.

Shaybanids - after the fall of Timurids they became the most powerful dynasty of Central Asia. That's a real shame their tags have no flavour whatsoever then! Now, I'm not an expert on the subject, but even I could see some inexactness in how Uzbek has been portraied. I don't blame devs for this because the topic is quite vague and, as I've mentioned in that other thread, there isn't even a Wikipedia page about Uzbek khanate in neither English nor Swedish. After dwelling into cyrillic depths of Russian Wikipedia, here are my thought on how to spice the Uzbeks up:

1. Setup
  1. Dynasty ruling Uzbek in 1444 should be renamed to Ozbeg. Reason behind the change is presented in the thread linked above. tl;dr: Shaybanids shall emerge later.
  2. Timurids and Uzbek should become historical rivals.
  3. In 1444 the capital of Uzbek Khanate was in Chimgi Tura, not in Orda-Bazar which seems to have been used as a Mint. The actual capital is placed in Tyumen(#1075), which by the way...
  4. ... Should be dynamically renamed to Chimgi-Tura. Tyumen is name of a fort built there by Russians in 1580s, after the city was burnt. The province itself could receive a slight boost in lines of +1 base tax.
  5. As we are on the topic of wrong names - Ostyaki(#2427) as a province name makes no sense. Ostyaki is a plural form of Ostyak - the province is basically named "Ostyaks" but in Russian. I don't have any replacing name but for sensibility I'd at least remove "i" from the name.
  6. Since we can consider Kypshak as the mint of the khanate, goods produced in this province could be changed as well. Most of coins produced there were either silver or copper - there isn't silver in the game so it's pretty logical for Kypshak to have copper as produced goods. Its dev could be cut a bit, say: 4/7/4 from current 6/6/6.
  7. Boost Syghnak's development slightly. It is to become Uzbek's capital in a few years, therefore its starting development combined with events should put it at least close to Kypshak's current development.
  8. At the moment, there are no forts in entire Uzbek. Adding at least one in either Synghak, Tyumen Chimgi-Tura or Kypshak should be considered.
  9. There should be NO Kazakh cores at the game's start - the concept of Kazakh is yet to emerge in 1444. We could go even further and remove Kazakh culture from the start date - the culture would emerge from provinces conquered by Kazakhs.
  10. Timurids should start with cores on all the provinces south of Syr Darya River owned by Uzbek(Transoxania and Khiva areas).
  11. Uzbek and Timurids should start with an 8 years truce.

2. Events

There are a few events for Uzbek, Bukhara and Sibir that I feel should be added into the game. They would mostly revolve around Uzbek losing control over Sibir and emergence of the Kazakhs.

  • Moving capital south:
    triggered by:
    -country is Uzbek
    -capital is not Syghnak
    -year is 1445 or later

    MMTH: 12 months

    Description: "Chimgi-Tura was named the capital of Uzbek khanate upon the conquest of Western Siberia in the year 1428. With our newest acquisitions in the south appeared an opportunity to choose one of the newly conquered cities as the new capital - having the center of our country so close to the enemy lands would surely increase our capability of raiding their lands, but would probably lessen our rule over the north."

    Decisions:
    +"It's time to move south!"
    [-lose 3 development in Chimgi-Tura
    -all provinces with Sibir cores get +50% autonomy
    -capital changes to Synghak
    -gain 7 development in Syghnak
    -set country flag shy_moved_south_flag]

    +"North is too valuable!"
    [-gain 3 development in Chimgi-Tura
    -all provinces in Khiva and Transoxania areas get +50% autonomy
    -Kypshak gets +25% autonomy
    -get +5 unrest in all provinces in Khiva, Arys and Transoxania areas
    -get +5 unrest in Alty-Kuduk, Dzhaman-Kuduk and Turkestan

  • Departure of Sibir:
    triggered by:
    -country is Uzbek or Bukhara
    -has flag shy_moved_south_flag
    -capital is not in the West Siberia region
    -either year is 1465 or later, or Abu'l-Khayr has died

    MTTH: 36 months

    Description: "Each year our authority over the people of Sibir is getting smaller. Let's face it - if we don't do anything about them right now, we're gonna lose Siberia!"

    Decisions:
    +"Let their people go!"
    [-gain 1/0/1 base development in the capital
    -gain 1 development in 2 random provinces
    -release Sibir with member of Ozbeg dynasty as their khan
    -lose cores on provinces owned by Sibir
    -get 15 years truce with Sibir
    -get +50 relations with Sibir]

    +"I'll send all the rebels to... wait a moment."
    [-huge rebel stacks spawn in Chimgi-Tura, Ostyak and Irtesh
    -Sibir gains cores on every province in Western Siberia owned by Uzbek
    -get +10 unrest in every owned province in Western Siberia]

    And one additional event for Sibir concerning their relations with Uzbek later in the game.
  • Bond back with the southern Ozbegs:
    triggered by:
    -country is Sibir
    -Uzbek or Bukhara exists
    -Uzbek or Bukhara has Shaybanid dynasty on their throne
    -year is 1561 or later
    -borders Russia or their vassal
    -Uzbek or Bukhara doesn't own Sibir's cores
    -Sibir doesn't own Uzbek's or Bukhara's cores
    -relations between Uzbek or Bukhara and Sibir are better than +25
    -IS NOT a rival of Uzbek or Bukhara

    MTTH: 24 months

    Description: "Ever since we left the khanate of Uzbek our relations with them were almost non-existant. Now, in the time of need we turn back to our roots, asking our cousins for help."

    Decisions:
    +"We need to come back!"
    [Uzbek/Bukhara receives an event in which they can accept or not. If they don't accept they will suffer -50 relations penalty, if they help:
    -relations between the countries incrfease by +75
    -Sibir's ruler changes to a Shaybanid with 4/4/5 stats
    -get royal marriage with Bukhara/Uzbek
    -get +1 stability
    -lose 10 prestige

    +"We don't need any help!"
    [-get 15 prestige]

  • Muhammad Shaybani
    triggered by:
    -country is Uzbek
    -year is 1500
    -Uzbek is ruled by the Ozbeg dynasty

    MTTH: 20 months

    Description: "Muhammad Shaybani was an Uzbek ruler famous for his betrayal of Timurid khan in battle of Chirciq River in 1488 and uniting the Uzbek tribes. In year 1500 he gained control over Transoxania with cities of Bukhara and Timurid capital - Samarkand. Bukhara became his country's new capital - he and his descendants would title themselves as khans of Bukhara. After Shiban, he is known as another khan that 'Shaybanid' dynasty name comes after."

    Decisions:
    +"Truly, an appropriate heir!"
    [-Muhammad Shaybani Shaybanid(5/4/6) becomes an heir. He's designed to be a 3/5/4/2 general
    -gain 20 legitimacy]

    +"Truly, an appropriate advisor!"
    [-50% chance of getting level 3 Army Reformer "Muhammad Shaybani" for 1/3 of price
    -50% chance of getting level 3 Commandant "Muhammad Shaybani" for 1/3 of price]

  • [Disaster?] Emergence of the Kazakhs:
    triggered by:
    -country is Uzbek
    -year is 1455 or later
    -Chagatai and Yarkand are not controlled by a player(if they are, the cores appear in all the provinces with Kazakh culture in current build and culture simply appears in Karamegdan, Almaty and Karaz. The event itself will then spawn Kazakh rebels across the Uzbek)

    MTTH: 24 months

    Description: "Around the year 1456 a group of tribesmen led by Janybek Khan and Kerey Khan left Khanate of Uzebk and turned to the land of Seven Rivers, where they decided to fund a new country. The event was considered a treason, the people who fled were named Kazakhs which probably meant "the deserters". The event started the Kazakh uprising, lasting until 1465.

    Decisions:
    +"TRAITORS!"
    [-Kazakh appears in Karamegdan, Almaty and Karaz with 20k soldiers.
    -Kazakh receives cores on Kazakhstan and Balchasj areas
    -Kazakh gains cores on Lower Ishim, Aksary, Kerey and Shegendyk
    -Uzbek starts war with Kazakh]

    +"Let them be... for now."
    [-Kazakh appears in Karamegdan, Almaty and Karaz with 20k soldiers.
    -Kazakh receives cores on Kazakhstan and Balchasj areas
    -Kazakh gains cores on Lower Ishim, Aksary, Kerey and Shegendyk
    -get +10 unrest in every province with Kazakh core as long asKazakh exists or as long as the tag is Uzbek
    -get rebel stacks periodically by events in provinces with Kazakh cores until as long as Kazakh exists or as long as the tag is Uzbek]
    This event should probably be redesigned into a disaster, but I can't think of triggers or stoppers for it at the moment.

    To get this event better: there should be no Kazakh cores at the game's start, or not even their culture. In this case that's how I'd split cultures in the pre-Khazakhi Central Asia: http://imgur.com/LHmSd4y

    Adding Kazakh events would probably require some province reshaping, for example this is how Kazakh Khanate looked like upon its foundation.

    If the event "Emergence of Kazakhs" ends with Kazakhs cutting the Uzbeks off Sibir while it kept on being owned by the Uzbek, SHY would be forced to release Sibir.

  • The Emirate of Bukhara:
    triggered by:
    -country is Bukhara
    -year is 1747 or later
    -at least one of the following must be true:
    >ruling dynasty is neither Shaybanids nor Ozbegs
    >legitimacy is lower than 60

    MTTH: 36 months

    Description: "By the XVIII Khanate of Bukhara has found itself in a deep crisis - khans had less and less power, lost war to Persia resulted in subjugation of the Khanate. The situation was quickly exploited by the ataliq Muhammad Rahim Bi - tutor of Abulfayz Khan's son. After Persian Shah's death he murdered both khan and his son. For the next 40 years ataliqs would choose puppet khans with no de facto power, who would 'rule' in the emirs' name. In 1785, after death of the last puppet khan, Shah Murad bin Daniyal Bey proclaimed the emirate of Bukhara."

    Decisions:
    +"Give power to the Emirs!"
    [-government type changes to theocracy
    -gain 100 devotion
    -lose 1 stability
    -emir with stats of at least 4/3/3 becomes a ruler]

    +"Only the Khan can rule Bukhara!"
    [-government type changes to absolute monarchy
    -gain 2 stability
    -gain 60 legitimacy
    -big clergy rebel stacks appear in the capital and another highly developped province]


3. National Ideas

Very few hordes have their own ideas - the only one that comes to my mind are the Timurids and Jurchens. I really don't like when so many countries share ideas, no matter how good they are - and horde ideas are very nice! Nevertheless, in my opinion every country deserves their own set(or at least give one idea set to a few - Hannoverian ideas could be shared by Brunswick and Luneburg!), so here they are:

Traditions: recover army morale +10% ; land attrition -25%
Ideas:
  1. Traditions of the White Horde: Yearly Horde Unity +0,5 ; aggressive expansion: -10%
    "Our borders are reminescent of those of White Horde - with our legacy we can claim to be the successors of Jochi Khan and therefore of all of the Western Mongol Empire!"
  2. Punish the Khazakhs: Discipline +5%
    "These cowards who fled south of Balkhash were but a thorn in the side of our army - without them Uzbek hordes will be much more efficient!"
  3. Coins from Kypshak: National tax modifier +10%
    "Kypshak is the biggest monetary center in the Uzbek Khanate. Silver and copper coins produced there fuel coffers of the Khan almost as actively as raids."
  4. Know your enemy: Land Leader Maneuver +1
    "Khans of Uzbek usually began their military careers in foreign, usually hostile, armies. Leading these armies not only gave us field experience but also knowledge of our foes' tactics."
  5. Defeat the Timurids: Siege Ability +15%
    "For generations Shaybanids and Timurids were fighting over dominance of Central Asia. As their 'empire' crumbles down our might can only grow."
  6. Muslim heritage: Missionary Strenght +2%
    "Uzbek Khanate takes its name ofter Öz Beg - the longest reigning khan of the Golden Horde. He was also the one who converted the empire to islam. Next khans of the White Horde and now Uzbek have held strong onto their beliefs. Strenght of belief renders onto the power of imams in the khanate - some of the higher ranked claim to be descendants of the prophet himself!"
  7. People of the western great steppes: National Manpower +25%
    "Khanate of Uzbek spans from western Siberia to the banks of Amu Darya. Its lands are home to many groups of people who will fight in the name of khan, willingly or not."
Ambition:Land Leader Shock +1

Traditions: Cavalry Combat Ability +20% ; Looting Speed +33%
  1. Unite the Uzbek tribes: Land Forcelimit Modifier +25%
    "Shaybanids always had an ambition of uniting the Uzbek tribes under their rule. The greatest advancements in this mission were made during the reign of Abu'l-Khayr and his son. Conquest of Bukhara by Muhammad Shaybani in 1500 marks the end of his dynasty's struggle - the tribes were finally united."
  2. Dominate the Transoxania: Yearly Legitimacy/Devotion +1
    "Mawarannahr, the region between Amu Darya and Syr Darya rivers is home to rich history, culture... and cities. Khanate of Bukhara is undisputed ruler of these lands - no one even dares to question our claim!"
  3. Back on the Road Again: Trade Steering +10% ; Caravan Power +20%
    "By acquiring Bukhara and Samarkand we've put ourselves on the world's trade map - every important trade route goes through our territory and we will make use of it!"
  4. Settle down: monthly autonomy change -0,05%
    "Nomadic life, however exciting it is, turned out to be ineffective compared to settled rule. Surely it's easier to pick one capital instead of changing it every 20 years. It's time replace the saddle with the throne, from which we shall centralise the rule over our country!"
  5. The Bukhara Library: idea cost -10%
    "The reign of Abd al-Aziz Khan saw a construction of Library of Bukhara labaled as 'Having no Equal'. The Library saw the inception of many talented scholars and works of art."
  6. The ataliqs: Tolerance of the True Faith +2
    "Emirs always played a very important role in rule over Bukhara. XVIII century saw a great boost in their influence, especially among tutors of heirs to the Bukharan throne, leading to formation of emirate of Bukhara."
  7. Bukharan education: technology cost -5%
    "Khanate of Bukhara undertook an extensive public education system. The education started with 2 years of elementary school at the age of six. After that the student could go to madrasah, where he would take part in 3 step learning, 7 years each, which equals 23 years of studying."
Ambition: Morale of Armies +10%

The main point in design of these ideas is simple: Uzbek is for players who decided to stay as a Horde(half of their first idea renders useless after reforming) and conquer as much land with as little problem as possible, meanwhile Bukhara consists of great bonuses to encourage people to form the tag and recompansate unavoidable loss of Sibir.

I have a feeling I might've made these ideas a little bit too overpowered - if you have any suggestions on how should they be changed, please let me know!

That's all for now! Perhaps someday in not-so-far-future I'll come back here with ideas and events for Sibir and Kazakh.[/spoiler]
 
Last edited:

Martin_Mortyry

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And of course, I realised that I forgot a whole point about formation of Bukhara AFTER the developers read my thread. Thanks to @Trin Tragula for letting me know the topic was read - you'll probably want to read this post as well. :p

4. Forming Bukhara
In the previous versions of Europa Universalis IV forming Bukhara would result in releasing Sibir - even now the description for the decision says that "if we push this far south into settled land our wild cousins to the north will no longer accept our authority." This statement is right, but only partially. As you can see in point 2. of this thread, the differences between Uzbeks and Siberians were pretty obvious as soon as 2 years into the game's start - rather bad diplomacy and mediocre administration of Abu'l-Khayr(the poor guy could be nerfed a bit), combined with changing Uzbeki capital to a city placed so far south resulted in separation of the Sibir upon his death in almost feudal manner.

If we already have 2 events concerning Sibirian independence, the Bukharan decision won't result in it - the decision itself will be the result of Sibirian Departure!

Form Bukhara:
Description: "Moving south and abandoning Siberia let us concentrate on conquering the fabulous land of Mawarannahr. With control over the wealthiest cities of this area we can claim the title of undisputed sovereigns over these lands by calling ourselves the Khanate of Bukhara!"

Potential requirements:
-is Uzbek
-has flag shy_moved_south_flag
-Bukhara does not exist
-if is AI controlled, has at least 5 provinces

Allow:
-the year must be 1500 or later
-is not overlord of Sibir
-does not own cores on provinces owned by Sibir
-is not a subject nation
-is at peace
-owns and has cores on Bukhara(442), Samarkand(454) and Herat(446)

Effects:
-country changes to Bukhara
-set capital to Bukhara ((originally the capital was Samarkand, but there's no reason to include this fact in game))
-if is duchy, change rank to kingdom
-add 25 prestige
-gain permanent claim on antire Transoxania, Balkh, Arys and Ferghana areas, and provinces: Khiva, Urgench, Qaraqalpak and Charjuy.
-changes type of government type to Iqta
-changes technology group((will these be around for 1.18 anyway?)) to muslim
-changes unit type to muslim
-add +2 base tax to Bukhara


And now something miscellaneous: there could be some events giving Bukhara historical advisors, most notably Sultan Mirak Munshi(natural scientist?) and Mir Abid Khusaini(artist).

Whew, I think that's it! I've also edited a bit of info in the OP. Waiting for the forum's response - meanwhile I'll maybe go and work on Kazakhs and Sibirians. :rolleyes:
 

JKiller96

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The Kazakh disaster/event seems like a bit much. It might be a bit nice if it's like the oromo migrations events that ethiopia has
 

Martin_Mortyry

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The Kazakh disaster/event seems like a bit much. It might be a bit nice if it's like the oromo migrations events that ethiopia has
That's not quite how the things went with Kazakh - they rebelled against the Uzbek khan, deafeated him and pretty much collapsed the shaybanid khanate. This rebellion is probably one of the many reasons why Sibir became an independent entity. Now, the rebellion didn't destroy the Ozbegs, in just 35 years they would rebuild their might, although in different borders, as the Khanate of Bukhara. Historically they were unable to get back control over the nowadays Kazakh territories and would spend next 2 centuries on fighting Kazakhs.

In the game AI Uzbeks facing this disaster are doomed, but player should be able to easily fight off the rebels. The modifiers and rebel spawning system should be tweaked, alright - but I am here only to suggest the mechanic, not to build the script for it - I'm not a developer or even a modder, for that matter.

The only question is - how do we make Uzbeks who lost territories to Kazakh strong enough to form Bukhara - perhaps some event giving them additional fighting bonuses for a time period and a mission giving them claims on Bukhara and Samarkand?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another quick thing: Uzbeks could get a mission to conquer great cities of Transoxania if they decided to move south. completing mission could give additional prestige and perhaps some 10 year positive modifier.

Alright, let's now talk more about Central Asia as a whole!

5. Kazakh

What a story that is! A group of revolters taking over most of their former overlord's land, creating a powerhouse that would last until XIX century! This country definitely deserves some flavour!

Since the tag's inception requires Chagatai losing a chank of land, and its expansion requires digging into the Uzbeks, it's suggested that Kazakh would become historical rivals with Chagatai or with the Uzbeks/Bukhara, if not both.

Now, let's talk about national ideas - Kazakhs should start very strong, so then they could pull off their initial independence war against Uzbek(more about it in "Emergence of the Kazakhs" event/disaster). Other ideas are to show AI the way they should manage this country - by putting their focus on expanding their territories, as well as their, at first non-existant, culture.
Traditions: Land Leader Shock +1 ; Cavalry Combat Ability +20%
  1. The Free Style of Ruling: Coring Cost -20% ((I'm really sorry))
    "Our neihgbours treat their people very badly. If we manage to comfort the small folk, they won't show any need of coming back to their former khans!"
  2. The fleeing people: National Manpower Modifier +20%
    "The term Kazakh most likely means 'deserters' or 'fleeing people'. Kazakhs, just like cossacks who probably got their names after this tribe, were people who ran from unfair rule to live on their own. The more people had felt injustice of their overlords, the stronger Kazakhs became."
  3. Rapid assimilation: Culture Conversion cost -15% ; -5 Years of Separatism
    "When Muhammad Shaybani reconquered Turkistan in 1488, he was met with its people discontent over Ozbegs coming back. Although the land had been lost not even quarter of century earlier, people were already calling themselves Kazakhs instead of Uzbeks."
  4. The army of million: Land Force Limit Modifier +25%
    "In his historical work 'Tarikh-i-Rashidi', Mirza Muhammad Haidar Dughlat wrote that army of Kasym Khan 'exceeded a thousand thousand'. Although most likely these numbers are highly exaggerated, there's no doubt that Kazakh Khanate under his rule owned the biggest army in the entire central Asia."
  5. Centuries of conflicts: monthly war exhaustion -0,05
    "Kazakhs were constantly in conflicts with their neighbours. If they weren't fighting Bukhara, they fought Nogais, if they weren't fighting Nogais - they fought the Moghuli. If they weren't in any conflict - they were most likely preparing for a fight against both Bukharans and Chagatais."
  6. Zhety Zhargy: Local Unrest -2
    "Years of wars between Zunghars and the Kazakhs caused massive outcry among people of the Kazakh Khanate. Wise Tauke Khan estabilished the Zhety Zhargy - the seven strict rules under which the Khanate would be ruled from now on. The law turned out to be Great Success, as no one would like to give ten horses for stealing one."
  7. The second Mecca of the East: Missionary +1
    "Turkistan is Kazakh center of the sunni faith. It is said that three pilgrimages to Turkestan are equal to one hajj to Mecca."
Ambition: Manpower Recovery Speed +20%

6. Sibir
Sitting in Siberia is already pretty boring(ask Kamchadals!), even moreso if you don't have your very own ideas!
Traditions: looting speed +25% ; Cavalry Cost -10%
  1. A World Apart: Attrition for Enemies +1
    "Siberia is well known for its extremely harsh climate. It's not really a place one would like to visit, even less so invade."
  2. Siberian raiders: land maintenance -10%
    "Sibir isn't too wealthy. Local steppe riders don't expect to be paid much - as long as they have some place to pillage for a real coin."
  3. Born Survivors: Land Attrition -25%
    "Our people are seasoned hunters and skillful horse riders - they aren't afraid of anything that Mother Nature could throw at them!"
  4. Fist of the North Star and Crescent: Accepted Culture Treshold -10% ; Missionary Strenght +2% ((I'm not sorry at all))
    "Khanate of Sibir was the northernmost muslim country in history. They were the Prophet's hand piercing through wide, heathen steppes, reaching for the Arctic Ocean. The Khanate united diverse Siberian people under one flag and one faith."
  5. Befriend the Russians: Better relations over time +25%
    "The nation beyond the Urals is very powerful. If we don't find a common language with them, it's only matter of time until they burn both Chimgi-Tura and Qashliq. Perhaps it's time to find some other place to raid..."
  6. Repell the Cossacks!: Land Leader Maneuver +1
    "Expeditions from the west come on their horses to pillage our lands! These old fools actually think they can outplay us in our own game! Let these imbeciles drown in the snows of Siberia!"
  7. Take over Siberia: Colonist +1
    "As our name dictates, we shall become the sole rulers of the whole Great Steppe of Siberia! Wealth of the whole land from Kamchatka to the Urals awaits its rightful owners!"
Ambition: Caravan Power +20%
In the first few decades from gaining independence, Sibir could be fed a few colonisable provinces from Ural and Central Siberia via events - at least if it's AI Sibir, as the player will most likely pick exploration as their first or second idea.

I've already mentioned one event for Sibir in the OP, but I also think it's worth giving them a certain decision.
Description: "The tsardom of Russia is looking at us menacingly from the Urals and our aggressive actions don't help the situation. Forbiding our horselords from raiding lands of Perm is our last resort. The ban will improve our relations with the tsar, but how will our tribesmen react?"

Potenatial requirements:
-is Sibir
-Russia exists
-year is at least 1560
-Russia or its vassal owns provinces in Perm and/or Kama areas

Allow:
-Sibir borders Russia or its vassal
-Sibir is not rivaled to Russia or vice versa
-unlocked "Befriend the Russians" idea from Sibir's National Ideas.

Effect:
-Add +150 relations with Russia
-Russia's attitude towards Sibir changes to friendly
-gain +10 unrest for 10 years in every province bordering Russia or Russia's vassal
-add -5% tax modifier for 10 years
-add +20% production efficiency for 10 years
-(if this suggestion got into the game)disable sending raiding parties to the lands of Russia and its vassals
Modifiers might not be too tempting - if you have any suggestion on how to make this decision actually useful, let me know by posting here.

7. Chagatai - Moghulistan
There are a few things in need of change about Chagatai. Be it from the fact that there are many people on this forum that know much more of this horde than me or from sheer laziness I decided not to dwell too deep into research on CHG*. Nevertheless, here are a few things I managed to find as wrong or not precise.
  1. Let's be honest - in most cases naming tags after a dynasty makes no damn sense and usually these tags have really nice alternative names. In Chagatai's case it would be Moghulistan.
  2. Timurids should have cores on some provinces of Yarkand. They only lost control over the city in 1435 - 9 years before the game's start. I'm not sure how far their empire had stretched in that region but they should have cores on at least Yashilkul, Kashgar and Yarkand.
  3. I am very confused about Yarkand. I thought it shouldn't be part of Moghulistan in 1444 but then I found out that their first ruler(or was it his father?) had fought Timurids for control over the city of Yarkand back in 1435. I honestly don't know the status they had back then, according to this thread they should start as Moghuli vassal. If anyone has some solid informations on Yarkand, please let me know.
  4. In the game's period the Chagatai Khanate has been in a state of decay - they've already split into Western Chagatai(already dead by 1444) and Moghulistan. Throughout the timeline Yarkand and Eastern Moghulistan(Uyghurstan) also separated from Moghulsitan. There is no mechanic representing the fragmentation, Uyghurstan isn't even a tag, which is a shame.
  5. As suggested in this thread, Oirats expanding into Chagatai land could be able to form Zunghar. Alternatively, as suggested by @JKiller96 it should be more of a "forced migration" tag for Oirats who lost control over Mongolia - hence the comparison to Norway and Iceland.
I actually had some plan for national shared by all Chagatai tags, but then it came to me that Yarkand has their own ideas, rendering some aspects of mine obsolete! Taking NIs after Yarkand doesn't really make sense for other Chagatais as, from what I've read, the character of Moghulistan seemed more tolerant towards other religions, whereas Yarkand has bonuses to tolerance of the true faith and... is even encouraged to turn into a theocracy!

*it's gone much deeper than I've expected anyways.

EDIT: Removed a non-fulfillable promise of creating national ideas for Moghulistan. Maybe someday. Maybe.

And last but not least - a thing that only partially concerns the central Asia:
8. Formable Golden Horde
Every khan had an ambition of restoring the Mongol Empire. Tatar khans claimed to be descendants of the great rulers of Golden Horde - original Golden Horde tag is in pretty bad situation at the game's start, so why not let other countries take its place?
Description: "All the other pretenders to the title of Great Khan of Golden Horde are either dead or too irrelevant to even look down on. You're the only khan that proved himself being worthy of being called the descendant of Batu-Chan's dominion - that's the first step to restoring the empire of Genghis-Khan!"

Potential requirements:
-Is a horde
-One of the following must be true:
-has Tatar culture
-is Kazakh
-is Uzbek
-Golden Horde does not exist

Allow:
-owns and has core on Sarai
-owns and has core on at least 4 of the following:
-Crimea
-Astrakhan
-Kazan
-Nogay
-Bashgird
-Tyumen Chimgi-Tura
-Kypshak
-Urgench
-is at peace
-is not a subject nation

Effects:
-country changes to Golden Horde
-if it isn't in one of provinces mentioned above, change capital to Sarai
-add +2 base tax to Sarai
-if is a duchy, change Rank to kingdom (or maybe even empire?)
-add 50 prestige
-gain permanent claims on:
-Crimea region
-Tambov, Saratov, Nogay, Bashkiria, Kazan, Khiva, Kazakhstan, Ishim, Balchasj, Yrtesh, Ob areas
-Mangyshlak, Ustyurt, Kyzylkum, Syghnak, Iglino, Ostyaki and Sibir provinces
 
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Martin_Mortyry

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Alright, it's time to expand this thread a bit more with some more organised approach to The Emergence of The Kazakhs:
  1. Abu'l Khayr's stats should be changed, prefferably to ADM: 1-2(he failed to keep his country together, it pretty much imploded on his death); DIP: 2(his generals rebelled against him); MIL: 5-6(he was an excellent general).
    I honestly don't know why I didn't include it in the OP - most likely I accidently removed the paragraph while doing some corrections in the post.
  2. The Rebellion itself
    After some thinking and creating a thread about the Netherlands and the Dutch revolt, I realised that making events such as Maratha rebellion, Dutch revolt, Cossack uprising, rise of the Mughals and Kazakh rebellion in form of a disaster would vastly improve both logic and intelligibility of them. A player will know about the oncoming danger and will try, and will be able, to prevent it. Meanwhile the event won't appear out of nowhere just because - the reasoning behid these revolts will be shown as monthly progress.
Prerequirements:
  • owns the biggest amount of provinces in Kazakhstan and Balchasj areas
  • the year is at least 1455
  • is not a subject nation
  • Kazakh does not exist
  • country is a horde

Monthly progress:
  • ruler's diplomatic skill is below 3: +2 monthly
  • ruler's administrative skill is below 3: +2 monthly
  • tribes' loyalty is below 65: +0,5 monthly
  • tribes' influence is below 60: +0,5 monthly
  • is rivaled to Chagatai: +0,5 monthly
  • for every stability point below 0: +1 monthly
  • horde unity lower than 75: +1 monthly
  • negative prestige: +0,5
  • as long as tribes' loyalty is at least 65: progress stops but doesn't reset
  • as long as tribes' influence is at least 60: progress stops but doesn't reset
  • the country has +3 stability: progress stops but doesn't reset
Some might think it's a bit of an overkill. Personally, I think 9 to 13 months from start of the progress(even more if you manage to appease the tribes) should be enough to get ready for a war, unless tests say otherwise.

Can be halted by:
  • every owned province in Kazakhstan and Balchasj provinces has autonomy higher than 50% and every province in Kazakhstan and Balchasj areas is owned by tribes estate.
  • the country changes government form
When progress increases, some events might appear, increasing or decreasing it.

The event:
Immediate effects:
    • KZH tag forms in Taraz, Karamegdan and Almaty with 20 land units
    • (if these provinces are owned by Chagatai controlled by a player, Kazakh appears in Balchasj area)
    • provinces KZH emerges from change culture to Kazakh
    • Kazakh ruler is set to have skills of at least 3 ADM, 2 DIP and 5 MIL
    • Kazakh ruler is set to have leader skills of at least 0 fire, 4 shock*, 3 maneuver and 1 siege
    • add 10 development to Kazakh's capital
*including the +1 shock from their traditions
Description: "In the year [year of rebellion] a group of tribesmen led by [name of generated ruler of KZH] left Khanate of Uzebk and turned to the land of Seven Rivers, where he decided to fund a new country. This action was considered a treason by [SHY ruler], the people who fled were named Kazakhs - "the deserters". For the next years Uzbek would fight against this new state."

Option:
>"TRAITORS!"​
    • lose 1 stability
    • lose overall 7 development from random owned provinces in Kazakhstan and Balchasj areas
    • start war with Kazakh
    • Kazakh receives the following modifiers: +50% force limit modifier and -33% land maintenance for duration of the war
    • Kazakh receives cores in every province from Balchasj and Kazakhstan areas
    • +60 relations with Chagatai(if it's not human player)
Every province from Balchasj area will flip to Kazakh once sieged down by Kazakhs.​

Duration: during the disaster events concerning the rebellion will appear. Some will be positive(in lines of "local tribe supports us against the traitors" giving SHY manpower, soldiers etc.) or negative(spawning rebels, unrest in provinces, changing culture in provinces to Kazakh, flipping to KZH(?) etc.)

Perhaps making it even more similar to the Dutch Revolt would be a good idea? By this I mean that other countries could join on each side of the conflict so e.g. Chagatai helps Uzbek fight the revolt while Timurids join Kazakhs to kick some Uzbek ass.

Ending conditions:
  • War with Kazakh is ended
If Kazakh is defeated and doesn't exist, provinces with its culture get +10 unrest but lose separatism. The country owning them gains modifier of -20% culture conversion cost for 15 years. Uzbeks receive 20 prestige.

If Kazakh survives the war, it receives 10 prestige. Every province of Kazakh culture not owned by KZH will get +5 unrest on top of separatism. Every province conquered by Kazakh instantly changes its culture to Kazakh.

If Kazakh wins and manages to cut Uzbeks off their provinces in Siberia, Uzbek will be put in front of decision - they can either release Sibir as independent nation andfocus on moving south(choosing this option will give their military a boost to be bale to take on Timurids, given they're weakened from the revolts) or move their capital north themselves, giving up their southern territories. This land will then go to other states having cores there. In case of provinces without foreign cores or with multiple cores, the provinces will be given to the stronger claimant.
I think that's it about the emergence of Kazakhs. Halting conditions could be worked around as well, as I can already see people finding simple ways to avoid the disaster. Disaster could be a real pain, but I think a human player should be able to not only survive but also defeat the revolting nomads. It should be pretty hard for the AI to pull it off without at least losing some land. If this setup doesn't allow KZH to win against AI most of the time, the disaster needs to be buffed.

UPDATE! To people who happened to see this topic previously - my previous post has been updated with some information on Chagatais.
 
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The dragon of bhutan

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Note that the sibirs aren't actually muslim at gamestart, and due to the event, uzbek won't have the time to convert them, so the fourth idea's name isn't very logical.
Great suggestions though
 

Martin_Mortyry

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Note that the sibirs aren't actually muslim at gamestart, and due to the event, uzbek won't have the time to convert them, so the fourth idea's name isn't very logical.
Well, in this case Sibir could be given an event in which they decide whether to turn Muslim.
Great suggestions though
Thank you very much! If you know anything interesting about the Central Asian hordes, please - post it here! Especially since the chance of me getting anything more done in regards of Moghulistan is very slight at the moment...
 

AirikrStrife

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I have suggested a few times introducing a Chagatai culture and rearrenging the culture groupings of Turco-mongolians in the area. That is written in other suggestion we've run about the horde countries.

Anyway, one thing which would really help increasing game time in central asia would be achievments. There are really no achievments for Uzbek, Chagatai or Timurids, not even Oirats. That's a shame
 

The dragon of bhutan

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Well, in this case Sibir could be given an event in which they decide whether to turn Muslim.

Thank you very much! If you know anything interesting about the Central Asian hordes, please - post it here! Especially since the chance of me getting anything more done in regards of Moghulistan is very slight at the moment...
I'd love to contribute and I'm interested in the topic, but I know little about it
 

The dragon of bhutan

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According to Wikipedia (I don't know if that is a reliable enough source) the khans of moghulistan were mostly timurid puppets, at least until the mid-15th century, EU 4's starting date.
 

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According to Wikipedia (I don't know if that is a reliable enough source) the khans of moghulistan were mostly timurid puppets, at least until the mid-15th century, EU 4's starting date.
Khans of Western Chaghatai Khanate were Timurid puppets. Eastern (Moghulistan) kept switching between Doughlat domination and Khan rule.
 

The dragon of bhutan

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Khans of Western Chaghatai Khanate were Timurid puppets. Eastern (Moghulistan) kept switching between Doughlat domination and Khan rule.
Right, that explained why I didn't find anything like that on the Moghulistan page
 

The dragon of bhutan

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Anyway, one thing which would really help increasing game time in central asia would be achievments. There are really no achievments for Uzbek, Chagatai or Timurids, not even Oirats. That's a shame
Achievement for formation of bukhara and mughals, chagatai for restoring its glory, oirat for converting central asia to Tengri?
 

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So I developed another idea on how to handle the uzbek sibir split. Since statehood in these parts of the world is loose, and sources are a bit lacking. Everything is a bit free to go with.

But understanding the khanate of Sibir is a bit more complex than just a northern offshot of the Shaybanids. It was actually founded by another dynasty (taybugids) and then conquered by the shaybanids. Then the main shaybanid dynasty moved south khanate of sibir split off but was saw continous dynastic strife between a junior branch of the Shaybanids and the Taybugids.

I got the idea to represent this internal war by having Uzbek and Sibir starting in a personal union and move from there in the event chains. Allowing for Sibir to become more detached from the shaybanids, but with the same dynasty or to break completly with future Bukhara under the Taybugids.
 

AirikrStrife

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And talking about wrong geography. City of Sibir (exact location is unknown) was located further south and fairly close to chimi-tura, not in ostyak lands in the north! Current province would need to be cut in 2 to accomadate both cities.

Ostyak tribes would also more fittingly start out as tributaries of uzbek/sibir
 

Sonikah

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This thread is very old, but it's one of the only places I've found that actually mentions "Kypshak" (province 476). I haven't been able to find any other mention of this city, which is unusual given that it has 18 development. Is it more commonly known by another name or something?
 

Martin_Mortyry

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This thread is very old, but it's one of the only places I've found that actually mentions "Kypshak" (province 476). I haven't been able to find any other mention of this city, which is unusual given that it has 18 development. Is it more commonly known by another name or something?
The name Kypshak comes either from a village located in that territory, or the ethnic group of Kipchaks. The reason for its high development was the settlement known as Orda Bazar, which worked as Uzbeki mint if I recall correctly.
 

JKiller96

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This thread is very old, but it's one of the only places I've found that actually mentions "Kypshak" (province 476). I haven't been able to find any other mention of this city, which is unusual given that it has 18 development. Is it more commonly known by another name or something?
It's named after a tribe. Other provinces are also named after tribes, like Shekty and Nogai. Pretty much all provinces in the steppe region are not named after cities but rivers and tribes.