Spice war

[unmerged(31994)]

I was thinking about a chain of events similar to that of the trade wars made by Matty, though a bit different.

Middle eastern Sultanates and Governments had always made it an institution to protect the Spice trade, the Mamelukes and then the Turks had created specfic spice navies to defend the merchants of the Arab sea.Historically, the Ottoman Empire declined because of the loss of control of the spice trade and lucrative routes to the west due to Christians looking "west" and around Africa.

So I was wondering, wouldnt it be possible for a trade /Spice war to flare up between say, the Caliphate/Egyptians and others Vs Christian Merchants attempting to control the spice routes in the Arab Sea?It was quite crucial.

Food for thought!

 

[TheArchduke]

As long as it isn´t overcomplicated it sounds actually quite good, but who are the cristian nations you think about.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Perhaps Genoa and Eire (the only nations Ive seen so far who have colonial and merchantile intrests in ME,India...etc)

 

[TheArchduke]

Eire is prolly too far off, but Genoa and mayhaps Sicily lateron strike me as candidates.

And you forgot the most obvious, Byzantium. Genoa is overloaded atm though.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

But wouldnt Byzantium Support the Arabs somewhat?I mean, imagine if the Christians in the Arab Sea take control of the spice trade?It would mean that the trade routes through Constantinople arent lucrative and useless!

 

[unmerged(17763)]

Calipah has a point. Byzantium has little interest in supporting the Arabs' economic growth, but even less interest in facilitating the (historical) change of the spice trade's primary routes to those around Africa. However, I don't see Genoa or Sicily being really interested in this either. Historically, the fact that trade with the East went through Arab countries and then the Mediterranean was crucial to the development of the trade in Genoa and Venice. The prices were hugely inflated because of the multitude of middlemen. As the Portugese discovered India and the Spice Islands (Indonesia) and began transporting these goods around Africa on their own, with no middlemen, they were able to sell them at considerably more reasonable - yet still lucrative - prices, practically putting Genoa and Venice out of the levantine trade, and contributing enormously to their subsequent decline. The Mediterranean traders have little interest in importing spices around Africa unless they could completely monopolise it.

 

[MattyG]

Sicily and Genoa (and the Almohad Empire? and even an Italian-oritened Savoy are the logical candidates.

I think it's a great idea. Complexity is fine, if it needs it. The important thing is that it makes sense and we don't end up with events that trigger when the situtation doesn't merit it. So if that requires compexity ...

Please Calipah give some more details on how it might work? What period are you thinking of? Would it all collapse once the European start trading around the horn of Africa?

 

[unmerged(31994)]

I assume that There should be a steady revenue from the Spice trade through the Arab sea from the nations involved (Mostly CAL and Egypt).However, when Christian nations discover the tip of Africa and begin explorin the east, thats when the problems begin.

Christian Navies attempt to take over Socotra for example and "Enforce Christian Spice trade" this would of course, trigger responses from CAL and EGY trying to stop the Christians from vying for control of the spice route.Navy building, fighting off the Christian navies in the Arab Sea and ensuring that ONLY the Spice link through the ME remains.Perhaps this conflict could encompass the islands in the Arab Sea which act as depots for merchants like Zanzibar and Socotra for example?Who ever controls the islands control the trade points.This could be followed by raids on either the Arabian coasts (Scaring the Muslim merchants ) or the Caliphate and Egypt attacking Christian shipping and the coastal regions controlled by Christians.

Byzantium could pledge secret support to the Caliphate, and Genoa perhaps.

The time limit, well, should be around 1560 till perhaps 1620.

The trade could survive IF the Christians deem getting the spices around Africa is unsafe.That can only occur if CAL and other nations pledge the best they can to save the route.

On the other hand, the route can survive if the Christians pledge ample support to protect Christian shipping.This will cause the CAL and Egyptian economies to suffer as trade is directed elsewhere.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

It seems to me that caliphate, strong in persia would most be interested in restoring the Silk Route more than this clearly obsolete looking adventure on the high seas. Caliphate is a land based powed and as such they could fascilitate trade between india and china and europe. Ukraine being too unstable and backwards and, well that pretty much describes the north south axis of Asia across Urals. Either Ukraine / Finland which are backward

Caliphate might be interested in protecting this income later on too

 

[unmerged(17763)]

Calipah,

It seems you're thinking of this in religious terms too much. The spice trade wasn't really a "Christianity vs Islam" thing, not primarily, anyway. Of course, wrestling trade away from the Muslim was a source of prestige for the trading nations, but it wasn't really much in terms of their motivation, I see no reason why the Aberrated version would be different. When the Portugese discovered India and started a new trade route around Africa, they didn't do so in the name of all Christendom or the Catholic Church; they did it in the name of the King and the interests of their particular nation. They, as well as the Spanish, started citing religious motivation only when the Pope became interested and the treaty of Tordesillas came around - and this was designed to keep each other out of their vital trading interests.

In Abe, there's no Tordesillas and no clearly marked zones of interest. There is, from the outset, competition between the naval trading powers. Religion is everything in diplomacy, politics, military matters etc., but this is different. This is business. The various Christian powers have very little reason to form a unified front over the spice trade issue, especially with the Reformation raging in Europe. Christian merchants who found it prudent to ally with the Moslems against their European competitors would probably do so in a heartbeat.

I still think the idea of a spice trade war is a good one, but it really shouldn't be executed as a two-sided thing. I'm not sure how it should be implemented event-wise though.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Unfortunitly, I cant seem to explain the spice war except through a religious point of view.The Mamelukes and Ottomans with the support of the Omanis had fought tedious wars to stop the Porteuguese from gaining the route, I would assume the same thing occurs between any European state Vs the CAL and Egypt.

 

[MattyG]

Calipah,

It seems you're thinking of this in religious terms too much. The spice trade wasn't really a "Christianity vs Islam" thing, not primarily, anyway. Of course, wrestling trade away from the Muslim was a source of prestige for the trading nations, but it wasn't really much in terms of their motivation, I see no reason why the Aberrated version would be different. When the Portugese discovered India and started a new trade route around Africa, they didn't do so in the name of all Christendom or the Catholic Church; they did it in the name of the King and the interests of their particular nation. They, as well as the Spanish, started citing religious motivation only when the Pope became interested and the treaty of Tordesillas came around - and this was designed to keep each other out of their vital trading interests.

In Abe, there's no Tordesillas and no clearly marked zones of interest. There is, from the outset, competition between the naval trading powers. Religion is everything in diplomacy, politics, military matters etc., but this is different. This is business. The various Christian powers have very little reason to form a unified front over the spice trade issue, especially with the Reformation raging in Europe. Christian merchants who found it prudent to ally with the Moslems against their European competitors would probably do so in a heartbeat.

I still think the idea of a spice trade war is a good one, but it really shouldn't be executed as a two-sided thing. I'm not sure how it should be implemented event-wise though.

But isn't that partly a European viewpoint where religion and state affairs/commercehad begun to be neatly and conveniently separated? Calipah would know better if it remained a religious issue for the Islamic world. If we build events around it, these two distinct viewpoint will better inform the flavour text and the event commands.