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Liquid Sky

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The speed is not okay.

It is way to fast.

Pattons Third army...essentially unopposed as it raced across France: 15km/day

Guderian from start of Barbarossa to Smolensk: 25km/day.

These are considered the fastest in history. 8km/hour is just stupidly fast.


What the game should have is during the combat sequence, there should be battle events that give temporary bursts of speed.
 
Last edited:

fabius

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okei, you kinda convinced me the speed is okei,... so only real problem is i think Strategic redeployment..

You raised a valid question, and I for one have refocused on/ learnt something about speed of large formations when advancing.
 

vorosgy

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I think speed should be given in km/day ingame, that would be much more practical.

Units are too fast in hoi3, and not just armour and motorized, but also infantry. In optimal conditions, infantry might make around 30 km/day (in friendly territory, of course). In hoi3, infantry speed is 4 km/h = 96 km/day.
 

208

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I hope in HoI4 we'll see a better representation of strat redeploy/moving/fighting speed. In a way that you loose org up to an certain amount when moving.
Just because having the whole Div in marching order is not really that suited for fighting. And breaking through the enemy lines and moving up to next target is also a bit different from "marching up to the frontlines"..

While I don't have any historical figures, I would think that reorganizing for battle from a strategic redeployment should be a lot quicker than reorganizing after a long fight. That is, in hoi3 terms, I think losing org for strategic redeployment is a poor choice of representation (as well as the existing tactical delay, which I think everyone agrees was bad).

I think it would work a lot better if strategic redeployment used something similar to HoI3's "amphibious landing" model where the unit's effective strength starts from 0 and increases over time, without impacting organization at all. You could also have a reverse process at the starting point with the effective combat strength of the unit decreasing over time until it's "fully loaded", before it starts moving. (And come to think of it, loading/unloading from ship or air transport could do the same.)

With that model, you could significantly increase the redeployment speed of units across the map without making it a no-brainer for short-distance hops and tactical repositioning, because there'd be a fixed minimum time cost to using it, although the loading/unloading speed could possibly be improved with better infrastructure/port facilities/etc. And with infrastructure affecting those delays, you can lessen the impact of varying infrastructure levels on tactical movement with infrastructure still being important strategically.
 

PnGuin

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Large military formations (Divisions and Brigades) move at only a fraction of their vehicles top speed. This is true even with modern armies. Units have to get from point A to point B maintaining unit cohesion, ready to fight. Once they are on the battlefield smaller formations (squads and platoons) use the speed and agility of vehicles to engage opposing forces in a vigorous manner, using the ability to maneuver as a key advantage.
 

scroggin

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I think speed should be given in km/day ingame, that would be much more practical.

Units are too fast in hoi3, and not just armour and motorized, but also infantry. In optimal conditions, infantry might make around 30 km/day (in friendly territory, of course). In hoi3, infantry speed is 4 km/h = 96 km/day.
96km is a massive distance to cover on foot in a day that's two marathons with all the gear that an infantryman carries then doing it again the next day. 20-30 kilometres would be more likely depending on the need for caution and the terrain.
 

sermaciej

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The speed is not okay.

It is way to fast.

Pattons Third army...essentially unopposed as it raced across France: 15km/day

Guderian from start of Barbarossa to Smolensk: 25km/day.

These are considered the fastest in history. 8km/hour is just stupidly fast.
But it was fighting, advnacing into enemy territory. So HoI 3 speed is good, when you'll count how long does it take you to beat your opponent.
 

Chromos

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Strategic redeployment should be tied to the capacity of the infrastructure. Redeploying a single division from eastern to western soviet union could probably be completed in a week or two. But sending dozens of divisions, you will strain the infrastructure. There will be shortages of trains and vehicles, there will be clogging of rails, roads and railway stations. Historically, the redeployment from east to west of troops took quite some time. The russians were attacked in may and didn't send troops from the east into battle until december. I am uncertain though when they started sending these troops, but it must at least have taken several months. But I agree that in HOI3, strategic redeployment is a bit slow at times, especially when sending single divisions.
I like the general idea behind this.
In HoI2 we had a transportation capacity(TC) that was used for supply as for strat redeploy. Combined with max throughput based on Infra lvl in HoI3 it would get close to what you want to have.





The speed is not okay.

It is way to fast.

Pattons Third army...essentially unopposed as it raced across France: 15km/day

Guderian from start of Barbarossa to Smolensk: 25km/day.

These are considered the fastest in history. 8km/hour is just stupidly fast.


What the game should have is during the combat sequence, there should be battle events that give temporary bursts of speed.
Combat events/Combat tactics raise/lower combat speed in HoI3.. ;)

You miss the point I wrote on page 1 too..
And also, if you fight, the moving speed drops too.
Even in HoI3 you cant get that fast to a new place if fighting occurs.







I think speed should be given in km/day ingame, that would be much more practical.

Units are too fast in hoi3, and not just armour and motorized, but also infantry. In optimal conditions, infantry might make around 30 km/day (in friendly territory, of course). In hoi3, infantry speed is 4 km/h = 96 km/day.
See my post on page 1..

And in WW2 German INF Divs moved 50km per day on foot!(Without fighting of course..)
Even in wars before INF was capable to move faster by times. But that is of course not ussual move speed.
The GER units moving 50km a day didn't do that all the day. But it was quite often asked for such actions as they often lacked mobilisation(trucks).

Cool would be a speed modifier depending on the "stance" used. So normal stance = normal speed(25-30km per day) and "Blitzkrieg" gets a speedbonus.
Like the "victory or valhalla" feature in AoD, toggle a button and your units go beyond ususal measures.






While I don't have any historical figures, I would think that reorganizing for battle from a strategic redeployment should be a lot quicker than reorganizing after a long fight. That is, in hoi3 terms, I think losing org for strategic redeployment is a poor choice of representation (as well as the existing tactical delay, which I think everyone agrees was bad).

I think it would work a lot better if strategic redeployment used something similar to HoI3's "amphibious landing" model where the unit's effective strength starts from 0 and increases over time, without impacting organization at all. You could also have a reverse process at the starting point with the effective combat strength of the unit decreasing over time until it's "fully loaded", before it starts moving. (And come to think of it, loading/unloading from ship or air transport could do the same.)

With that model, you could significantly increase the redeployment speed of units across the map without making it a no-brainer for short-distance hops and tactical repositioning, because there'd be a fixed minimum time cost to using it, although the loading/unloading speed could possibly be improved with better infrastructure/port facilities/etc. And with infrastructure affecting those delays, you can lessen the impact of varying infrastructure levels on tactical movement with infrastructure still being important strategically.

I think having a scaled effect for gaining org would be nice. So after the strat redeploy your units have very low Org(~5-10) and then regain faster up to a certain lvl. Maybe there could be a strat redeploy reorg modifer wich fasten the reorg.

The idea to lower the units firepower is nice though. I would like to tie it to Org. So with low Org, you can't only fight that long, you also fight worse..
 

Wyrm

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I think having a scaled effect for gaining org would be nice. So after the strat redeploy your units have very low Org(~5-10) and then regain faster up to a certain lvl. Maybe there could be a strat redeploy reorg modifer wich fasten the reorg.

The idea to lower the units firepower is nice though. I would like to tie it to Org. So with low Org, you can't only fight that long, you also fight worse..

Org regain could be tied to several things. First, training/experience. An experienced/well trained division will be quicker to reform itself than an inexperienced/untrained one.

Leadership will also have a significant effect on reorganizing. And I'm not just talking about the division commander, but all the lower officers. (now this gives me an entirely different idea - post coming :D )

And finally, the supply level would also be important. Lack of supplies will make any reorganization harder. If soldiers are missing vital equipment, they will not be able to integrate fully with their units.
 

ikeokp

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I think the best way to balance this is to add a 'fatigue penalty'. The longer a unit is moving/in combat the more exhausted it gets.
For example, infantry moving during barbarossa should never be at 99% organization like they were in HOI 3.
I could literally steam roll the Soviets in HOI3 with the same inf division enduring over 3 offensives a week taking the bare minimum in casualties.
I think casualties need to be increased in HOI 4
 

Axe99

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I think the best way to balance this is to add a 'fatigue penalty'. The longer a unit is moving/in combat the more exhausted it gets.
For example, infantry moving during barbarossa should never be at 99% organization like they were in HOI 3.
I could literally steam roll the Soviets in HOI3 with the same inf division enduring over 3 offensives a week taking the bare minimum in casualties.
I think casualties need to be increased in HOI 4

Fatigue is a good idea - also builds in the need for infantry to sleep as well - I see a lot of average speeds multiplied by 24 to get a daily speed in this thread, but drones were not in as widespread combat use in WW2 and humans need sleep (and to eat, visit the bathroom, etc;) :).
 

mvm900

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This.. is all fine assuming you're at war or moving these brigades through conventional ways, but what about peace time? Like he said moving from one side of Russia to the other took way too long, but if you're at peace can't they uh.. speed it up a bit? And by a bit, I mean a lot.
 

scroggin

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This.. is all fine assuming you're at war or moving these brigades through conventional ways, but what about peace time? Like he said moving from one side of Russia to the other took way too long, but if you're at peace can't they uh.. speed it up a bit? And by a bit, I mean a lot.
I understand that a train from Vladivostok to Moscow on the Trans Siberian Railway took 8-14 days depending on what priority was given to the train when there was conflicting traffic.

edit
Moving the forces needed for operation August storm from Europe to Manchuria took about 6 months
This included 1.6 million men, 26,000 artillery pieces, 5,500 tanks and self-propelled artillery, 5,300 aircraft plus all the supplies needed. So that just shows that the speed of moving Units is limited by Infrustructure capacity more than anything, If you are moving a large number of troops.
 
Last edited:

varsovie

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Fatigue is a good idea - also builds in the need for infantry to sleep as well - I see a lot of average speeds multiplied by 24 to get a daily speed in this thread, but drones were not in as widespread combat use in WW2 and humans need sleep (and to eat, visit the bathroom, etc;) :).

Sleep is somewhat modelised by the fact units "pop-up" in the other province when moving, meaning they could've just sleep in between. :p

But yeah in HOI the unit speed is way too fast (more so for INF) and it doesn't help the weak logistic requirements to get this crazy fast operational speed.
 

Darkath

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My two-penneth.

Panzer III off-road speed - about 20kph.
Legendary divisional move (“Ghost” division under Rommel in the opening stages of the Battle of France driving for 24hours day & night without rest) – almost 50km.

Bearing in mind that Rommel left most of his infantry behind and the slowest part of his “column” were his 88s towed by those bloody great halftracks. I’m assuming they were the slowest. There are many references (like Arras) where they were “called-up from the rear”.

So… no. I don’t think HoI average speeds are unrealistic at all.

To be fair those 50km were through the Ardennes forest, not on flat land with good roads.
 

Mikematotski

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this bugged me the most, in clear weather armored tracked units would take even when their speed is 8km/h centuries to traverse 100 km distance unopposed..
first of all trucks can move faster than 6-8 km/h, and yes i mean on average on dirt-road .. only problem is FUEL, and logistics, if you create enough of a supply depot near
your "starting point" you are good for 200 km distance easy, and if you are unopposed you should drive through this distance in lets say 10 hours (that means avg. speed 20 km/h).
In hoi series such speeds are impossible..it ruins the experience..

are tracked units still going to be dragging their metal shiny fuel loaded supply consumption a** only 100% faster than the grunts using their feet?..

This game is not about move 1 truck or tank as fast as possible, its completley different to move a whole brigade or division.

Cheers
Captain Jack
 

Secret Master

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And gamewise in HoI3 the speed advantage of ARM over INF is too low imo to have more mobile warfare feeling.

I partially disagree.

I think one of the issues is that, since divisions move at the speed of the slowest brigade, that you end up having to specialize to get real mobile warfare.

Instead of having all armored divisions with light armor/faster elements to aid in mobile warfare, you instead have dedicated exploit divisions with entirely different compositions to more standard armored divisions. In game, this means that panzer division A might move at 8 kph, but panzer division B might move at 11 kph, meaning that panzer division B is the "mobile" element. In reality, divisions could "stretch" a bit to force contact or run exploitation. Someone already mentioned Rommel in France. That's an excellent example of a division maneuvering around infantry while parts of the formation were playing catch up.

In HOI3, it is insane to put LARM and ARM in the same division. But in a real division, you might have HARM, ARM, and LARM all in the same division so it can do all that kind of stuff. Just look at the historical Soviet OOB before Barbarossa...
 

Praetori

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War, even modern ones rarely utilise all the speed that the individual vehicles are capable of.
If you tell a mechanized platoon to make a vehicle march of 200km with good roads, no interdiction, pre recced route and with no breakdowns, wrong turns or accidents along the way it will take them around 4-5 hours to get there stopping probably once for a stretcher and some fuel (never enter a possible combat zone with low fuel). Now delegating those orders from a higher echelon HQ, getting everything in-place, making sure that the route is clean, getting the orders out to the unit, briefing and loading and then collecting said unit upon arrival will add at least an hour to the calculation, possibly two depending on their proficiency.

If you do the same with a battalion it will add several hours as you'll need communications during march and the logistic and CnC will need to be involved and coordinate along the way. If you increase it to a brigade it's quite possible that you'll have a trafficjam and once the first vehicle throws a track or a tyre, takes a wrong turn or forget to pull down their antennas while passing a powerline you're looking at a whole day before you're in-place and combat efficient.
Go up to Division and the problems just keep growing.

Throw some observed possible enemies into the mix, a mined road, roads too weak to carry all your divisional components, to few parallel roads, a blown bridge or viaduct, some thorough hostile who's taken down or flipped roadsigns on their way back, a map error, bad weather and a Bat.CO who doesn't keep coordination with the units behind him and you're looking at considerable slower speeds still. And that's without even getting into any serious combat.

Now wind back the clock some 70 years, take away most of the paved roads, take away good C3 and even up-to-date maps, mechanical tech and materials from the 30's (+50% of the tanks developing some sort of mechanical problem on such a leg) and add some actual enemy resistance and what Guderian, Rommel, von Bock, Patton, Rybalko and other accomplished was nothing short of phenomenal.

Around 3-4km/h on average was not something to be ashamed of for armored forces even though they could leap some 10-20km in just an hour or two and then stop for several more because of X.
Infantry not in direct combat could keep about the same speed but of course once there was a breakthrough the armored formations sped along and then the problems with Corps or Army cohesion started. Not to mentioned that the poor infantrymen were dead on their feet after marching for 10 hours straight in full combat-gear day after day.

HOI3 does a decent enough job to simulate this but for the wrong reasons IMO. I hope we'll see a historically correct but yet immersive and graspable representation in HOI4.
 
Last edited:

JDNIGHT

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I agree with many of the posters above in that I think HOI3 does a fairly competent job of simulating ground forces movement. If anything, units move too fast.

On top of the reasons listed above, another reason units don't move quite so fast is that when an entire division moves, it does not all just ride right up one thin, small road. It often is covering an area that has width. It will want to secure towns and cross roads that it passes. Elsewise, it will be very easy to cut it off from supplies and support. Sending out recon to scout locale towns and villages, temporarily garrisoning strategic objectives (just to make sure they are secure). These things slow it down.