speed of ground units..

[Smileyou]

this bugged me the most, in clear weather armored tracked units would take even when their speed is 8km/h centuries to traverse 100 km distance unopposed..
first of all trucks can move faster than 6-8 km/h, and yes i mean on average on dirt-road .. only problem is FUEL, and logistics, if you create enough of a supply depot near
your "starting point" you are good for 200 km distance easy, and if you are unopposed you should drive through this distance in lets say 10 hours (that means avg. speed 20 km/h).
In hoi series such speeds are impossible..it ruins the experience..

are tracked units still going to be dragging their metal shiny fuel loaded supply consumption a** only 100% faster than the grunts using their feet?..

 

[SpanglishEmpire]

Its probably a scale thing, If they did 20kph it would make inf worthless as encirclements would be simple and completed in a couple of days wiping out entire fronts. Barbarossa could be completed in a month and the game would be over by 41'

 

[Smileyou]

which means other combat mechanics are off the scale, why trying to cover that up by reducing speed of mobile units..its just lazy..

tracked and wheeled units have their drawbacks, which is fuel and need for even more trucks to run from near-front-line supply
depots to where armored units are advancing..the longer the distance the more trucks you need.. so it would be tied to logistics
and would make all out-wide front-line advance of armored units hard if not impossible..but with preparations, supply depots yes
you could and should be able(after break-through is achieved) make the 200 km drive, but after that you are without fuel, supplies
are running low and can more or less defend until INF catch up and your supply depots re-establish a closer point for you to refuel.


so, again i think its just lazy work to use such shortcuts and make vehicle speed so low, just like making gibraltar tremendous in size for
some reason. Easily they can make SHIFT+mouse hover over Gibraltar or whole southern part of Spain and a rectangle of magnified
Gibraltar would show up where you can move your units and more or less tactically prepare it for i don't know germany attacking it from
the sea?)lol.. Gibraltar was more or less safe, UNLESS Franco would join axis which he wanted but was threatened by UK with invasion
which spain couldn't repeal being so weak after civil war..so they stayed out, hitler didn't get to endanger the rock and that is that..

 

[Wyrm]

Well, there is quite a difference between moving a bunch of tanks at 30kph and moving an entire panzer division. Even if the speed of each individual unit is greater than 8kph, I doubt that the entire division can hold a much greater pace without loosing cohesion. You need to stop and make camp now and then, refuel and maintain vehicles, feed the men, distribute ammo and other supplies, and keep a functional headquarter for the staff, something that can't be done very well on the move. So, I think 8kph is a quite reasonable average speed for a panzer division. If you need to move units faster, you need to make a strategic redeployment, but that will mess up all cohesion meaning the unit needs to be organized when it arrives.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Well, there is quite a difference between moving a bunch of tanks at 30kph and moving an entire panzer division. Even if the speed of each individual unit is greater than 8kph, I doubt that the entire division can hold a much greater pace without loosing cohesion. You need to stop and make camp now and then, refuel and maintain vehicles, feed the men, distribute ammo and other supplies, and keep a functional headquarter for the staff, something that can't be done very well on the move. So, I think 8kph is a quite reasonable average speed for a panzer division. If you need to move units faster, you need to make a strategic redeployment, but that will mess up all cohesion meaning the unit needs to be organized when it arrives.

Yeah, moving masses of units take a lot of effort, just think: When front of the column starts moving, it takes 8 hours for rear of the column to start moving. As an example of course. You simply can`t perfom blitzkrieg at top speed tanks and trucks can move.

 

[fabius]

Well, there is quite a difference between moving a bunch of tanks at 30kph and moving an entire panzer division. Even if the speed of each individual unit is greater than 8kph, I doubt that the entire division can hold a much greater pace without loosing cohesion. You need to stop and make camp now and then, refuel and maintain vehicles, feed the men, distribute ammo and other supplies, and keep a functional headquarter for the staff, something that can't be done very well on the move. So, I think 8kph is a quite reasonable average speed for a panzer division. If you need to move units faster, you need to make a strategic redeployment, but that will mess up all cohesion meaning the unit needs to be organized when it arrives.

This.

Plus, recon of possible ambush positions; clearing obstacles; clearing villages; setting up communications; liaising with locals; correcting navigation errors; setting up defensive positions at halts; clearing the and the list could go on and on

 

[PEP]

Exactly. The speed indicated in game isn't the speed of the vehicule but of the unit as a whole. Sure 8km/h can seem slow but that's almost 200km a day! How often did armoured divisions actually moved that fast during the war?l

 

[Chromos]

Well, moving as fast as you can and moving a whole Div in a somehow coherent state might differ.

But to not have WW1 feeling like in HoI3 some mods changed units speed and got a much better representation of mobile warfare and the usage of breaktroughs.
So in the AHOI-Mod, you can loose contact with your slower moving infantry when blitzing behind enemy lines with your faster armor. Quite what happened historically.

I hope in HoI4 we'll see a better representation of strat redeploy/moving/fighting speed. In a way that you loose org up to an certain amount when moving.
Just because having the whole Div in marching order is not really that suited for fighting. And breaking through the enemy lines and moving up to next target is also a bit different from "marching up to the frontlines"..

 

[Big Nev]

My two-penneth.

Panzer III off-road speed - about 20kph.
Legendary divisional move (“Ghost” division under Rommel in the opening stages of the Battle of France driving for 24hours day & night without rest) – almost 50km.

Bearing in mind that Rommel left most of his infantry behind and the slowest part of his “column” were his 88s towed by those bloody great halftracks. I’m assuming they were the slowest. There are many references (like Arras) where they were “called-up from the rear”.

So… no. I don’t think HoI average speeds are unrealistic at all.

 

[Wyrm]

My two-penneth.

Panzer III off-road speed - about 20kph.
Legendary divisional move (“Ghost” division under Rommel in the opening stages of the Battle of France driving for 24hours day & night without rest) – almost 50km.

Bearing in mind that Rommel left most of his infantry behind and the slowest part of his “column” were his 88s towed by those bloody great halftracks. I’m assuming they were the slowest. There are many references (like Arras) where they were “called-up from the rear”.

So… no. I don’t think HoI average speeds are unrealistic at all.

Those 50km make HOI-speed seem lightning quick.
If you have a unit move 8kph for 24 hours it will move 192km

 

[fabius]

Exactly. The speed indicated in game isn't the speed of the vehicule but of the unit as a whole. Sure 8km/h can seem slow but that's almost 200km a day! How often did armoured divisions actually moved that fast during the war?l

The 200 to 300 km mark is interesting because it was about the distance that Soviets, and Allies had to operationally pause, even on breakthroughs for the logistics to catch up.

I'd have to check my facts for the average German operational pause distance.

 

[fabius]

Those 50km make HOI-speed seem lightning quick.
If you have a unit move 8kph for 24 hours it will move 192km

Just what I was thinking! Are HoI division speeds through enemy territory too fast ??

 

[wokelly]

11th Armoured Division make one of the biggest single day advances in WWII, managing to go 100km to liberate Amiens on 1st September 1944. Still only half of what a unit doing 8 km/h can do i in HOI3 :blink:

 

[No idea]

this bugged me the most, in clear weather armored tracked units would take even when their speed is 8km/h centuries to traverse 100 km distance unopposed..
first of all trucks can move faster than 6-8 km/h, and yes i mean on average on dirt-road .. only problem is FUEL, and logistics, if you create enough of a supply depot near
your "starting point" you are good for 200 km distance easy, and if you are unopposed you should drive through this distance in lets say 10 hours (that means avg. speed 20 km/h).
In hoi series such speeds are impossible..it ruins the experience..

are tracked units still going to be dragging their metal shiny fuel loaded supply consumption a** only 100% faster than the grunts using their feet?..

They have to rest, so, on average, considering resting hours, they move at 8kph. On top of that, people cant usually understand what a full division in movement is (not to talk about armies) Imagine a very long queue of trucks, afvs, jeeps... What happens when there is very dense traffic? Constantly stopping and crawling speed, right? The very same happens if instead of cars we have trucks.

 

[Olfert Fischer]

Isn't unit speed (game) vs. unit speed (reality) a question of game balancing, where game play > reality ??

 

[sermaciej]

Those 50km make HOI-speed seem lightning quick.
If you have a unit move 8kph for 24 hours it will move 192km

But isn't that 50 km including fights? I mean, it was part of offensive, right? So if they could drive in peace, they would propably move faster.

 

[Chromos]

Guys, in HoI3 you have in the defines.lua this:
LAND_SPEED_MODIFIER = 0.05,
NAVAL_SPEED_MODIFIER = 0.5,
AIR_SPEED_MODIFIER = 0.3,

So the max speed you see is the max speed in combat movement.
That value is then taken and modified by this modifer in the defines.lua for "normal" movement.
-> Max range a unit will move a day is lower then you would guess if taking the shown kph x24 hours.

Just do the test yourself.

And gamewise in HoI3 the speed advantage of ARM over INF is too low imo to have more mobile warfare feeling.

 

[Wyrm]

But isn't that 50 km including fights? I mean, it was part of offensive, right? So if they could drive in peace, they would propably move faster.

Sure, but when advancing through enemy territory you will not know if you will be opposed or not and will have to act as if you will. That means having to recon ahead, keep eyes open for mine fields, ambushes and so on. Also, you need to keep the division quite dispersed so you won't get completely hammered if enemy bombers show up. And you will still need to rest and all that. We already have combat slowing down movement of units in the game, so I think that would cover a difference in distance.

Moving through friendly territory though is another thing and perhaps they could speed that up somewhat, although not that much. Long movements through friendly territory is best done by strategic redeployment, using rail roads and having tanks on tank transporters. You will lose org this way though.

 

[Smileyou]

okei, you kinda convinced me the speed is okei,... so only real problem is i think Strategic redeployment..

As Soviets it will take you literally 1 frickin year to transport by SR troops from vladivostok to western theater..
As far as i know trains made it possible to travel the distance in about 12-15 days.. so lets say organizing them
into which carts of the train they will go, disassembling weapons, storing them in carts etc, but still 1 year? r u
kidding me?..

 

[Wyrm]

Strategic redeployment should be tied to the capacity of the infrastructure. Redeploying a single division from eastern to western soviet union could probably be completed in a week or two. But sending dozens of divisions, you will strain the infrastructure. There will be shortages of trains and vehicles, there will be clogging of rails, roads and railway stations. Historically, the redeployment from east to west of troops took quite some time. The russians were attacked in may and didn't send troops from the east into battle until december. I am uncertain though when they started sending these troops, but it must at least have taken several months. But I agree that in HOI3, strategic redeployment is a bit slow at times, especially when sending single divisions.