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G

GeneralSnoopy

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I would like to propose the following province trade good changes. In the past, I was criticized for scattering them in the various regional threads,
so this time I will place them in one thread. I believe the "modifications to goods.csv" thread is more focused on philosophical considerations (ie trade good definitions, relative pricing, etc), so a dedicated thread for province trade good changes may be in order.

South America:
[188] Mirim Fish -> Naval OR Nothing
[189] Macacos Fish -> Naval OR Nothing
[190] Japura Fish -> Fur OR Nothing
[191] Canuma Fish -> Naval OR Nothing
[185] Solomois Fish -> Wool OR Nothing
[184] Manaus Fish -> Fur OR Nothing

The suggested trade goods are the Paradox original; however, I would prefer using the NOTHING trade good. These provinces are in the Amazon interior.

FISH provinces gain bonus income from Naval manufactories. This secondary effect is strongly suggestive that FISH provinces should only reflect the ocean going fishing/whaling industry. Consequently, the FISH trade good is inappropriate for interior provinces.

Considering that these interior provinces are very poor (even today) and not settled during the EU2 timeframe I would prefer the NOTHING trade good.

NOTHING Trade Good: I've tried using this in the game and it does not cause a crash-to-desktop. I've tried it with both trading posts and cities of 1000--no problems. The icon is 'nothing' and the mouse rollover also indicates 'nothing'.
 
G

GeneralSnoopy

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Fish & Fur

Siberia:
[612] Stanovoe Fish -> Furs
[610] Djagdi Fish -> Furs
[609] Mogotcha Fish -> Furs
[600] Irkutsk Fish -> Furs
[601] Chatga Fish -> Furs

For reasons stated above I would like to change these interior provinces to FUR. While it is true that fishing was accomplished in these areas, the FUR trade was overwhelmingly predominant. The fish was caught to feed the fur traders and so did not enter international trade.

Greenland:
[1537] Vestbyden Furs -> Fish (Whaling)

Greenland was resettled to support the whaling industry.
 
G

GeneralSnoopy

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Java Island

Indonesia:
[703] Bandung Cotton -> Coffee
[704] Surabaja Cotton -> Coffee

"...the subject of cotton yarn and textile is not much of concern to historians working on the Javanese economy, certainly far less than that on sugar, coffee, and rice." - Kwee Hui Kian

"Production, Consumption And Trade Of Javanese Cotton Yarn And Textile in the Late Seventeenth And Eighteenth Century" by Kwee Hui Kian
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/economicHistory/GEHN/GEHNPDF/PUNEKwee.pdf
"Southeast Asian Consumption of Indian and British Cotton Cloth, 1600-1850" by Anthony Reid
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/economicHistory/GEHN/GEHNPDF/PUNEReid.pdf

Java is a major supplier of Coffee and was so during the EU2 time frame.
 
G

GeneralSnoopy

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South Atlantic Islands

South Atlantic:
[824] St Helena Fish -> Grain [Retain as Fish per doktarr]

"Brooke: History of St. Helena"
http://www.bweaver.nom.sh/brooke/brooke_ch4.html

The specific link discusses attempts to improve the island. All attempts (including fishing) fail. The island is very fertile, so I thought that GRAIN would best describe the province.

EDIT: Based on doktarr's arguments I am withdrawing my suggestion. Keep to Paradox original.
 
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doktarr

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I agree with all except St. Helena. Much like the naval support effects of "fish" clearly indicate oceangoing fishing/whaling, the manpower effects of "grain" clearly indicate an area which produces a very large usable surplus of food. Even if St. Helena is quite fertile, its small size, rough terrain, and isolation make such production quite unlikely in the EU2 timeframe.

As its primary use was a strategic port, "nothing" seems like a reasonable choice. Fish seems more realistic than grain, frankly - it could be used as a whaling base.
 

doktarr

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Also, as long as were discussing this, does anyone have suggestions on specific northern European or Japanese provinces to switch from grain to wine, to model hops and saki production?
 

CoryandTrevor

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For Saint Helena, I suggest Naval Supplies. If it was used as a waypoint, then it probably restocked ships. This would lean towards naval supplies.
 
G

GeneralSnoopy

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doktarr said:
...St. Helena ...the manpower effects of "grain" clearly indicate an area which produces a very large usable surplus of food. Even if St. Helena is quite fertile, its small size, rough terrain, and isolation make such production quite unlikely in the EU2 timeframe. As its primary use was a strategic port, "nothing" seems like a reasonable choice. Fish seems more realistic than grain, frankly - it could be used as a whaling base.
CoryandTrevor said:
For Saint Helena, I suggest Naval Supplies. If it was used as a waypoint, then it probably restocked ships. This would lean towards naval supplies.

Based on doktarr's comments I am retracting my GRAIN suggestion--Keep to FISH. The problem of St Helena is a general one for all provinces for which the principal "export" activity is operating a port. The Falklands has a similar problem. There may be other provinces with this problem as well.

CoryandTrevor: Naval Supplies refers to materials used in the manufacture and maintenance of ships--timber, pitch, tar, etc (mainly forest products). St Helena did not operate in this capacity; in fact its forest land was very limited. St Helena did provide food and fresh water to the ships crews. Unfortunately, there is no good trade good to reflect this "export".
 
G

GeneralSnoopy

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North America

North America:
[1479] Colorado ---------- Fur -> Wool
[1480] Llano Estacado ---- Fur -> Wool
[1481] Oklahoma --------- Fur -> Grain
[77] Mesabi -------------- Grain -> Fur
[78] Duluth -------------- Grain -> Fur
[79] Wisconsin ----------- Iron -> Fur
[94] Superior ------------- Naval -> Fur
[1569] Bahamas ---------- Cotton -> Salt
[12] Ensenada ----------- Fish -> Wool
[13] Baja ---------------- Fish -> Wool

Great Lakes:
By the end of EU2 the fur trade had expanded throughout the Great Lakes region. Wisconsin IRON probably represents the Lead mining boom of the 1820s. Superior NAVAL SUPPLIES were not important till after the EU2 time period. In summary, Mesabi, Duluth, Wisconsin, and Superior should all be FUR.

Important Fur trading posts were established at Grand Portage (Duluth province), Duluth (Duluth province), Kaministiqua (Superior province), and Aitkin (Mesabi province). Aitkin is comparatively close to the Mississippi river, so that is why I placed it in Mesabi province.

It is important to recognize that the fur trade was of utmost importance in the western Great Lakes.

History of Minnesota's Lake Superior
http://www.mnhs.org/places/nationalregister/shipwrecks/mpdf/mpdf1.html
The Fur Trade Era, 1650s to 1850s [Wisconsin]
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/topics/shorthistory/furtrade.asp

Bahamas:
COTTON was introduced into the Bahamas by British loyalists who moved there after the American Revolutionary War. SALT was a major export during the EU2 time period for the Turks & Caicos Islands and Exuma Island. Consequently, I feel that SALT best represents the economy for the majority of the EU2 timeframe.
http://www.tcmuseum.org/salt_industry/

Great Plains:
The FUR trade good is probably representative of the Bison (or American buffaloe). A better representation would be WOOL and GRAIN. I believe that FUR should represent fur-bearing animals only. Oklahoma is a fertile region and has sufficient rainfall for farming. Llano Estacado and Colorado are very dry making farming impractical.

Oklahoma
http://www.ok.gov/~okag/about-home.htm
Llano Estacado
http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/geol/llano.htm
Colorado (modern day state of New Mexico)
http://weather.nmsu.edu/News/climate-in-NM.htm

Baja Peninsula:
Today, it is a good source for sport fishing, but during the EU2 time frame I could find no evidence that fish was important in its economy. Since it is a very arid region the Spanish missionaries who settled the area introduced ranching, so WOOL.
http://www.timsbaja.com/rjackson/bajabook/TheBajaCaliforniaMissions.html
 

Norrefeldt

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GeneralSnoopy said:
I would like to propose the following province trade good changes. In the past, I was criticized for scattering them in the various regional threads,
so this time I will place them in one thread. I believe the "modifications to goods.csv" thread is more focused on philosophical considerations (ie trade good definitions, relative pricing, etc), so a dedicated thread for province trade good changes may be in order.

South America:
[188] Mirim Fish -> Naval OR Nothing
[189] Macacos Fish -> Naval OR Nothing
[190] Japura Fish -> Fur OR Nothing
[191] Canuma Fish -> Naval OR Nothing
[185] Solomois Fish -> Wool OR Nothing
[184] Manaus Fish -> Fur OR Nothing

The suggested trade goods are the Paradox original; however, I would prefer using the NOTHING trade good. These provinces are in the Amazon interior.

FISH provinces gain bonus income from Naval manufactories. This secondary effect is strongly suggestive that FISH provinces should only reflect the ocean going fishing/whaling industry. Consequently, the FISH trade good is inappropriate for interior provinces.

Considering that these interior provinces are very poor (even today) and not settled during the EU2 timeframe I would prefer the NOTHING trade good.

NOTHING Trade Good: I've tried using this in the game and it does not cause a crash-to-desktop. I've tried it with both trading posts and cities of 1000--no problems. The icon is 'nothing' and the mouse rollover also indicates 'nothing'.
If it works as you say, I have noting against starting to use NOTHING as a goods. We will probably need it for the new map anyway. If they could be ahistorically colonised, and the goods could in theory be moved away fromt eh area (in this case a river would be needed) I think we should try to model that.
 

Norrefeldt

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GeneralSnoopy said:
Siberia:
[612] Stanovoe Fish -> Furs
[610] Djagdi Fish -> Furs
[609] Mogotcha Fish -> Furs
[600] Irkutsk Fish -> Furs
[601] Chatga Fish -> Furs

For reasons stated above I would like to change these interior provinces to FUR. While it is true that fishing was accomplished in these areas, the FUR trade was overwhelmingly predominant. The fish was caught to feed the fur traders and so did not enter international trade.

Greenland:
[1537] Vestbyden Furs -> Fish (Whaling)

Greenland was resettled to support the whaling industry.
Your suggestion for Siberia is fine with me, provided the fish didn't leave the area, but the fur did.
I think Vestbygden was given Furs to model the much more profitable whale hunting. If so, details can be found in the other thread. I think we should decide where to put whaling. For manus, FISH fits better.

GeneralSnoopy said:
Indonesia:
[703] Bandung Cotton -> Coffee
[704] Surabaja Cotton -> Coffee

"...the subject of cotton yarn and textile is not much of concern to historians working on the Javanese economy, certainly far less than that on sugar, coffee, and rice." - Kwee Hui Kian

"Production, Consumption And Trade Of Javanese Cotton Yarn And Textile in the Late Seventeenth And Eighteenth Century" by Kwee Hui Kian
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/economicHistory/GEHN/GEHNPDF/PUNEKwee.pdf
"Southeast Asian Consumption of Indian and British Cotton Cloth, 1600-1850" by Anthony Reid
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/economicHistory/GEHN/GEHNPDF/PUNEReid.pdf

Java is a major supplier of Coffee and was so during the EU2 time frame.
OK.
 
G

GeneralSnoopy

Guest
Submissions

Norrefeldt said:
Will anything be submitted eventually?

I'll make a submission this Friday.

EDIT:
Will need to make it next week.
 
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sturmvogel

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Gold in Toledo

I've been reading extensively on Spain in the 15th Century and have found nothing on any gold mines in Iberia. Conversely I've read a lot about how the Andalusian and Granadan ports were the primary entry for African gold into Iberia until the Portugese colonized Leone without any mention of domestic gold mines. Is anyone aware of any sources on Spanish gold mines?

Also there's been much mention of how important the wool trade was to Castile, but only Extremadura has wool. I'll see if I can hunt up some more substantial numbers to present.
 

unmerged(37432)

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Yes that is also what I believe. No gold mines in the iberian peninscula in the 15th century. The romans mined in Galicia , and then there was a gold rush in norther england in 1100-1320, and then there was only gold mines in bohemia...
 

sturmvogel

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Silver outflow from Europe

I'm not sure about European gold mines per se, but I've run across several accounts of the major European silver mines in Saxony and Bohemia and how their output fluctuated enough to cause major shortages in silver in Europe as it was all being used to pay for imports from the Orient.
Silver was the only acceptable medium of payment for spices, silk, etc from the Orient so there was a constant outflow of European (and later American) silver in that direction. Thus a gold/silver exchange rate closer to parity in the Orient and Europeans could profit enormously by buying gold in the Orient and selling it in Europe at a much wider exchange rate. See:
http://www-geology.ucdavis.edu/~cowen/~GEL115/115CH7.html and
http://www-geology.ucdavis.edu/~cowen/~GEL115/115CH8.html
 
G

GeneralSnoopy

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Central America: Coffee & Tobacco

Neither Coffee nor Tobacco was important in Central America. Affects [33] Guatemala, [36] Honduras, [37] Nicaragua, and [822] Costa Rica

Coffee:
http://www.costaricamap.com/ing/aboutcafe.html
"Costa Rica became the first Central American country to establish coffee as an industry. First export was to Colombia in 1820."

Tobacco:
Historical Atlas of Central America, ISBN 0806130377, 2003
"Tobacco was a minor commercial commodity, grown in scattered regions with the right combination of warm temperatures, moderate rains, and shelter from strong winds. In 1766 it became an estanco in the Audiencia of Guatemala and the colonial authorities granted licenses for cultivation in restricted areas, processed the harvest in state-owned factories, and sold it in official tercenas. Tobacco was a major source of government revenue, but the industry was stifled by the estanco and never became an important export activity."
 
G

GeneralSnoopy

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Costa Rica

[822] Costa Rica Tobacco -> Naval

Historical Atlas of Central America, ISBN 0806130377, 2003, pp 117

"El Realejo, an ample, sheltered harbour on the Pacific Coast of Nicaragua, soon emerged as the major shipyard in the Audiencia of Guatemala. With the exception of iron, which was imported from Spain, the hinterland produced all the necessary raw materials, including timber, pitch, and resin from the pine forests; other construction timbers; maguey and cabuya for making rope; and cotton for the production of sail cloth. The shipyard at El Realejo produced many of the boats used in the coastal trade between Mexico and Peru, as well as Manila galleons that plied the Pacific. Nicaragua also exported pitch and resin to shipyards in Panama and South America, which were beyond the southern limit of the pine forests."
 
G

GeneralSnoopy

Guest
Tehuantepec

[31] Tehuantepec Grain -> Luxury (Cochineal)

Cochineal is a red dye extracted from an insect. Production was centered in the province of Oaxaca. It was extremely valuable and was the second most important export from New Spain. Cochineal was of great commercial importance until 1858, when A.W. Hoffmann perfected aniline red.

"Cochineal Production and Trade in New Spain to 1600", Raymond Lee, The Americas, Vol 4, No 4 (Apr 1948), pp 449-473
 
G

GeneralSnoopy

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Honduras

[36] Honduras Coffee -> Gold (mine value of 5 initially) [EDIT: to WOOL]

I'll submit some events to reflect the change in mine value, both up and down.

"Labour in the Colonial Mining Industry of Honduras", Linda Newson, The Americas, Vol 39, No 2 (Oct 1982), pp 185-203

"Gold and silver production in Honduras probably never exceeded 5% of that produced in Spanish America at any one time during the colonial period, but it was of considerable importance to the local economy and employed a significant proportion of the total workforce."

"...Tegucigalpa silver mines dominated mineral production throughout the colonial period."

"In the 'Golden Age' of mining before the discovery of the rich silver deposits of Upper Peru, the gold deposits of Honduras were regarded as sufficiently valuable that, in the absence of local sources of labour resulting from the decline in the Indian population and royale prohibitions on the employment of Indians in mining, the importation of Negro slavs could be justified. From the
mid-sixteenth century onwards, however, the profitability of mining was insufficient to justify the importation of Negro Slaves and mine owners were forced to employ scarce free labour, whilst they continued to press the Crown to permit the employment of Indians under the repartimiento. During the seventeenth century, when the Indian population reached its nadir, the mines operated at a low level using mainly repartimiento labour. This source of labour was never adequate to meet demands of miners despite the fact that mining seems to have received preferential treatment over other activities in the allocation of Indians. When new mines were discovered in the eighteenth century competing demands for the employment of repartimiento labour cretaed even greater shortages of labour, despite the fact that by this time the Indian population was increasing. In these circumstances mine owners were forced to turn to the employment of free labour. Although mineral production revived in the eighteenth century so that it could afford free labour, it was never sufficiently profitably to afford the high wages that would have attracted a permanent skilled free labour force."

EDIT: Change to WOOL per comments from sturmvogel. Nothing of significance in this province other then Silver/Gold which was not that significant.
 
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