Special Operations and Commando Raids

[TartanClad]

Hello chaps.

I wanted to start this thread to discuss and understand how commando raids and other special operations will be depicted in HoI4. I did search the forums for a similar thread but failed to find one. As most of us know, there were many occasions during the war when small, well-trained and elite groups of infantry were used to cause tremendous damage to strategic targets during the war, though often at great cost to the unit itself.

Examples of these raids which are relevant to this thread include:
The efforts of the LRDG/SAS, Compangie Auto-Avio Sahariane, the SOA or the Chindits.
Operation Source
Operation Musketoon
and my favourite; Operation Chariot

All these efforts resulted in an effect that could justifiably be interpreted in the game; the neutralisation of a vital dock, significant damage to airfields and aircraft, delaying repairs to a major battleship, destruction of power plants, an increase in desert or jungle attrition, etcetera. Naturally, these operations would be a large investment of time, training and preparation, with great risk, but I feel that they deserve their place in the game. Players can decide for themselves if these investments are worth the risk. Such efforts could probably be countered by MP divisions or counter-intelligence research. This is especially true of a game which may lead to ahistorical scenarios. Imagine German commandos launching raids on British docks and airfields in preparation for Operation Sealion.

I basically want to ask the developers; will there be a function where small units (which cannot be accurately represented by ‘divisions’) can be used to cause damage to strategic targets and specific units by carrying out raid operations? If not, will it be a possible addition in a future DLC? For those players among you, do leave your opinions and suggestions. Any feedback is useful and also helps to keep the thread alive. If the developers reply that there is no planned feature to reflect this, I might update the thread with some suggestions as to how this could be achieved.

 

[shri]

I think HOI3 had an intelligence button, where you send agents and if they are over a critical number (20> maybe) you can launch operations, depending on enemy counter-intelligence there is a chance of success or failure. It affected efficiency of IC, Docks, Airfields, Infra etc in a given region or 2-3 regions at most.
That seems a good mechanic to replicate in HOI4, no need of a special division.

 

[Rudolf Hessbart]

I think this will only be done by events, but I don't think that the paradox team will implent such events.

 

[xxroxx_2]

I reckon it is rather job for modders. Only the most famous secret operation will be covered in events, as my predecessor said.

 

[safe-keeper]

I'd love this. Would be interesting to have commandos try to reduce the strength of shore defenses before an amphibious invasion, for example, like they did before D-Day. Let commando operations be a dynamic background thing, as in, you can select a province or whatever and choose from a variety of missions, and then after some planning/preparation time your commandos will be able to attempt to carry them out. Then you fire them and they will either succeed or fail, or perhaps be a partial success.

Naturally commando raids would require you to expend resources/research time in some way. It shouldn't be something you can just do, free of charge.

I like the idea of forming a commando unit the same way you form divisions, too, but I wouldn't want it to be an on-map unit you moved around like the other divisions. Perhaps it could work more like the people in CK2 that you send on missions to provinces -- when you have a commando unit, you can try to deploy it to a certain region, and it'd have a certain risk of being compromised.

 

[Klausewitz]

I think that in the grand picture of things commando raids were neglible.

 

[D Inqu]

Most commando operations are below the scale of the game. These things are better modelled by attrition, partisan activity etc.

 

[Aries666]

I think it would be interesting if you could create a commando battalion and attach it to a division. The commandos would draw a daily number of supplies resources and accumulate "subterfuge" points. Once certain point and resource requirements are met the commandos can launch a raid on a province within their range, in cases of coastal raids they would need to be stationed in a port with landing crafts.

 

[Axe99]

I think that in the grand picture of things commando raids were neglible.

Italian special ops knocked out (temporarily, but for months) a couple of battleships in Alexandria harbour - that's comfortably noteworthy on the HoI scale. I think some kind of mechanic where you invest resources into a special ops group (or multiple), and can then plan operations, like the Keeper of Safes suggests, to do things like help with amphibious invasions (special ops were actually pretty handy on D-Day, clearing underwater obstacles and the like), raid ports (the Dieppe raid could then be in the game as a commando mission, say) or damaging infrastructure or ports. There wouldn't be a lot of them, but it could add some noteworthy 'story' moments to the game, and be little things that help tip the balance.

 

[FOARP]

Hello chaps.

I wanted to start this thread to discuss and understand how commando raids and other special operations will be depicted in HoI4. I did search the forums for a similar thread but failed to find one. As most of us know, there were many occasions during the war when small, well-trained and elite groups of infantry were used to cause tremendous damage to strategic targets during the war, though often at great cost to the unit itself.

Examples of these raids which are relevant to this thread include:
The efforts of the LRDG/SAS, Compangie Auto-Avio Sahariane, the SOA or the Chindits.
Operation Source
Operation Musketoon
and my favourite; Operation Chariot

All these efforts resulted in an effect that could justifiably be interpreted in the game; the neutralisation of a vital dock, significant damage to airfields and aircraft, delaying repairs to a major battleship, destruction of power plants, an increase in desert or jungle attrition, etcetera. Naturally, these operations would be a large investment of time, training and preparation, with great risk, but I feel that they deserve their place in the game. Players can decide for themselves if these investments are worth the risk. Such efforts could probably be countered by MP divisions or counter-intelligence research. This is especially true of a game which may lead to ahistorical scenarios. Imagine German commandos launching raids on British docks and airfields in preparation for Operation Sealion.

I basically want to ask the developers; will there be a function where small units (which cannot be accurately represented by ‘divisions’) can be used to cause damage to strategic targets and specific units by carrying out raid operations? If not, will it be a possible addition in a future DLC? For those players among you, do leave your opinions and suggestions. Any feedback is useful and also helps to keep the thread alive. If the developers reply that there is no planned feature to reflect this, I might update the thread with some suggestions as to how this could be achieved.

We haven't really heard much except that you can support foreign revolutionaries. However, if they do implement this kind of system, I really hope it works differently to the HOI3 and HOI2 systems, which really were just a case of launching dozens of missions until one was successful.

 

[safe-keeper]

Italian special ops knocked out (temporarily, but for months) a couple of battleships in Alexandria harbour - that's comfortably noteworthy on the HoI scale. I think some kind of mechanic where you invest resources into a special ops group (or multiple), and can then plan operations, like the Keeper of Safes suggests, to do things like help with amphibious invasions (special ops were actually pretty handy on D-Day, clearing underwater obstacles and the like), raid ports (the Dieppe raid could then be in the game as a commando mission, say) or damaging infrastructure or ports. There wouldn't be a lot of them, but it could add some noteworthy 'story' moments to the game, and be little things that help tip the balance.

Exactly. It wouldn't be something you did all the time, but a special weapon to be used on rare occassions.

It'd also be cool to be able to give weapons and whatnot to resistance groups, which would then eventually stage uprisings, or at least do some background "work" like increasing enemy attrition and whatnot.

 

[GeneralPetrov]

Also on the topic of special operations, I think it would be cool if you could give your enemy fake intelligence, especially now that battle plans are a thing. For example, see Operation Mincemeat (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat) where British intelligence services planted a dead body with a brief case full of fake battle plans off the coast of Spain and effectively tricked the German High Command into thinking the Allies would invade Greece, not Sicily, causing substantial redirection of German forces to Greece.

And of course, recovering actual real battle plans should be an option too.

 

[FOARP]

Exactly. It wouldn't be something you did all the time, but a special weapon to be used on rare occassions.

Ideally it's not something that:

1) Requires decision-spamming: In HOI2/3 the chance of success was so small that you had to attempt an operation dozens of times before you might have success. It simply wasn't worth the effort.

2) Requires a large trade-off with other forms of warfare/diplomacy: if people have to spend significant points/resouces to carry out a special operation, they'll just prefer to pump that into their war machine. Ideally the only real trade-off is research, with everything else (except arms-shipments to insurgents) covered by leadership points (or whatever).

Ideally you just have one or two "plots" that you're working on at any one time and they're "fire and forget" - you decide to initiate the operation and then just build up progress until its complete.

It'd also be cool to be able to give weapons and whatnot to resistance groups, which would then eventually stage uprisings, or at least do some background "work" like increasing enemy attrition and whatnot.

Yeah, this is where the arms system can really shine: air-dropping equipment to partisans and then watching them stage a massive uprising ala the 1944 Warsaw Uprising.

 

[Klausewitz]

Sure, the Brits had to do without a BB for a couple of month, the Germans lost a drydock.
The Brandenburder were important for the success of the Afrika Korps and so on and so forth...
But compared to things like supply problems, incompetence, doctrinal failures, etc. commando raids are neglible.

 

[Zaku]

Sure, the Brits had to do without a BB for a couple of month, the Germans lost a drydock.
The Brandenburder were important for the success of the Afrika Korps and so on and so forth...
But compared to things like supply problems, incompetence, doctrinal failures, etc. commando raids are neglible.

I tend to agree with you.
The game is a grand strategy game, the scope is simply to big for things like that. I wouldn't mind some abstract way to include it in the game, but I don't want to really deal in detail with things like this.

 

[TartanClad]

Well my thoughts were perhaps something along the lines of an automated function similar to the 'patrol' or 'crush rebellions' tab in Europa Universalis. The formation of a spirited 'special forces' unit that the player recruits and trains for (like any normal division), but then selects a 'raid' function, the province where it happens, and what their target is.

For example; There is a group of 500 trained commandos. The player clicks on 'raid' and then clicks on Danzig. There is a selection of actions they can use, such as 'scuttle vessel', 'sabotage docks', 'destroy factory', etc along with the success chance of those actions. The player chooses to scuttle the dock. The unit then leaves the player's control and automatically goes on the raid. A couple of weeks later, the mission is finished, successfully rendering the dock unusable for a couple of months but at a loss of 200 commandos.(or fails, at a loss of 400 commandos), etc.

Another example; A commando unit could perhaps be assigned to increase desert attrition in a province by passively attacking ground supply convoys. The extent of the attrition depends on the units training, modifiers (from officers, tech, equipment, etc) and enemy intelligence. Every so often, there is a chance that members of the unit will be killed, and the unit may not replenish until their mission is toggled off.

Alternatively, the unit could just be merged with a normal division to add a little extra fighting power against conventional troops.

These are just ideas I'm throwing around. However, what this thread is really for is to get some possible developer input on the subject and possibly some insight into their own plans (if any) for these sorts of units.

 

[safe-keeper]

Sure, the Brits had to do without a BB for a couple of month, the Germans lost a drydock.
The Brandenburder were important for the success of the Afrika Korps and so on and so forth...
But compared to things like supply problems, incompetence, doctrinal failures, etc. commando raids are neglible.

The impact of single tanks, or aces, were neglible, too, yet the game simulates individual tanks and fighter aces nonetheless. Sure it'll be a minor thing, but working in synergy with your other operations, it might just be the thing that tips the scales in your favour, so to speak.

It's like how you can park a cruiser off a coast and give your troops fighting on land a small shore bombardment bonus. It might be small, but it might still decide the whole battle.

 

[Victor Cortez]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...sibile-ink-discussion-on-intelligence.878106/

 

[greifer_77]

Id love to see this as event options, though it will be to modders I believe.

If the player would be given the option and the ability to use resources to commit to it, then it would be attempted. Cant have reward without some risk.

 

[Alpha2518]

I tend to agree with you.
The game is a grand strategy game, the scope is simply to big for things like that. I wouldn't mind some abstract way to include it in the game, but I don't want to really deal in detail with things like this.

The commando raids in Norway convinced Hitler that Norway might be invaded. He kept 250,000 troops there that could've been sent to other fronts. Seems quite appropriate to me if these raids can be used to prep places for invasion or convince your enemy you will invade somewhere as a feint.