Special divisions for winter/desert/jungle/partisan fighting?

[unmerged(54763)]

It will be good to have some way of representing adapting of troops and equipement of divisions for special theaters and clima changes,but on the ground.
For instance German army in USSR,cames winter--it will be nice to have somehow represented adding winter adaptation(read.. warm close for soldiers,paintings of equipement in white...)becouse those elements(in which Germans were poorly prepared in 1941)significantly influenced combat efectivenes.
It could be represented by,maybee,by increased requirement of suplies during change of clymatic enviroment on the battlefield.If one side dont have resources or organisational preparation for adaptment for changed clima enviroment,than those anprepared troops to have combat penalties.
I know this seems to be maybe to much for the HOI III game,newertheless its clear those things were very important,and somewhere,like for Germans in Russia were decisively important!

Why not add a function-climate adaptation of troop.and that to require time and resources.
Ability of troops for that adaptation could be added to research! So for instance you have basic,or advanced arctic,desert or tropics adaptation research,and than option to adapt your troops by pressing button in division menu-climate adaptation.

 

[Bullfrog]

Just want to add that marines are specialized for fighting in jungle conditions.

Not necessarily. It just so happened that most marines that saw combat did so in tropical conditions. It was not part of their doctrine simply because they were marines.

Later in the war specialized equipment and tactics were used, but that is mainly due to wartime experience, which would equate to a special doctrine tech if anything.

 

[unmerged(54763)]

So we could have research for 3 types of climate adaptation.
1.Arctic adaptation of troops.
2.Desert adaptation of troops.
3.Tropic adaptation.

All those adaptations to have researched,and even levels of adaptation within all those 3.For instance basic,and advanced Arctic adaptation...etc
And than to have option in division menu(just like option for upgrade or reinforce) to adapt. That adaptation to spend some TC and IC as well as time.
When adapted,troops to have lowered penalties in current climate enviroment.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

So we could have rserches for 3 types of climate adaptation.
1.Arctic adaptation of troops.
2.Desert adaptation of troops.
3.Tropic adaptation.

All those adaptations to have researched,and even levels of adaptation within all those 3.For instance basic,and advanced Arctic adaptation...etc
And than to have option in division menu(just like option for upgrade or reinforce) to adapt. That adaptation to spend some TC and IC as well as time.
When adapted,troops to have lowered penalties in current climate enviroment.

And to make it even more fun it should not only make those units better or consuming less resources in their specific environment - it should also make them less able in other environments. I vaguely recall reading in one of my books that one of the english divisions caught in the attack by the japanese on Malaysia was fully equipped and trained for battle in the african desert.

 

[Zaku]

Why not add a function-climate adaptation of troop.and that to require time and resources.
Ability of troops for that adaptation could be added to research! So for instance you have basic,or advanced arctic,desert or tropics adaptation research,and than option to adapt your troops by pressing button in division menu-climate adaptation.
[/IMG]

I don't like it. That would mean, I have to clock 150 times, until all my eastern front soldiers are in winter uniforms.

 

[zeekater]

I don't like it. That would mean, I have to clock 150 times, until all my eastern front soldiers are in winter uniforms.

Not to mention you have to click again when winter is over.

It seems like a school-case example of 'micromanagement' to me..

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Not to mention you have to click again when winter is over.

It seems like a school-case example of 'micromanagement' to me..

Clicking 150 times again when "winter is over" would only happen if "winter" and "summer" equipment would be different - I don´t think that in say western or middle europe the difference is large enough to need to be simulated. Just different colours of uniforms certainly is nothing needed IMO.

However WINTER equipment as in equipment fit to still functioning in conditions of the russian winter or worse the mudfests of russian autumn should not need to be "turned off" when the time of summer comes. The units outfitted for the eastfront should still have their winterequipment during the summer and only need to have it removed if they would be moved outside the areas that had the harsh russian winter.

 

[zeekater]

Clicking 150 times again when "winter is over" would only happen if "winter" and "summer" equipment would be different - I don´t think that in say western or middle europe the difference is large enough to need to be simulated. Just different colours of uniforms certainly is nothing needed IMO.

However WINTER equipment as in equipment fit to still functioning in conditions of the russian winter or worse the mudfests of russian autumn should not need to be "turned off" when the time of summer comes. The units outfitted for the eastfront should still have their winterequipment during the summer and only need to have it removed if they would be moved outside the areas that had the harsh russian winter.

You assume that the special equipment doesn't come with an increase in supply usage.
So, two options:

- no extra supply usage: you'll simply want all your divisions to have all types of equipment, it doesn't add supply cost anyway. So, why not have it as a tech only?
- extra supply usage: you need to turn it off and on in order to optimize supply usage, so micromanagement.

The thing that German soldiers weren't prepared for the Russian winter is already simulated by not having Germany be advanced in the 'winter equipment' techs. These techs lower the malus for fighting and moving in winter conditions (hopefully increasing the supply usage during these conditions).

So these techs do what everybody wants, make divisions better at fighting in such conditions. The only thing is that all your divisions will be equally good at fighting in winter, you can't choose 'hmm, this division will be good at fighting in winter, this one not, ...'
Is that really a decision you want to make?

 

[wosung]

Actually, the original complement of the Afrika Korps was build up from units specially trained, acclimatized and equipped for desert fighting. The American Merrill's Marauders unit (regimental sized) in the China-India-Burma theater is another example of specially trained units. And there are always the examples of Russian and Finnish ski troops. So I can't agree with you on this point.

May I ask: How comes the Wehrmacht had specially trained desert troops? Where did they train? In Mecklenburg Vorpommern desert?

Through the centuries, German armies were fixiated towards "standard" offensive warefare in Central Europe. The very few Germen adventures out of Europe (colonial warfare, military aid to Osman Empire, Suez Raids and Afghanistan Expedition in WW1) left no footprints in German military institutions at all, zilch, nada.

In WW2 Africa Corps had lots of problems in its desert enviroment: mechanical ones, even if it used engine filters for the tropes, plus: its food supplies weren't made for the desert: Far too much fat. That means: diarroeh en masse. The far better adapted British troops recognized German trenches, litterally by the smell.

As for Merrill's Marauders: It's official name, "5307 composite unit (provisional)" doesen't sound like a special unit. It got some special training with the Chindits. But Merrill itself was a cavalry man with no infantry experience. After the Myitkyina Campaign, the Marauders were disbanded. And jugding from the medical pow, the Marauders weren't specially adapted to jungle warfare, with very high disease rates, pretty much common in Burma, and much higher than combat losses.

Even the adaption to jungle warfare by the Imperial Japanese Army is mostly a myth: There was a jungle warfare training camp in Formosa (Taiwan), where a few units were trained. But the adaptiveness had other reasons:

1. IJA was lightly equipped and educated in the superiority of spirit above materiel. Therefore it needed a comparatively small supply chain. Good in the jungle. Also, it used comparatively light weaponry, which apart of logistics, also has tactical advantages in deep jungle. When Allies were able to muster and adapt firepower (which was still less than on the European battlefield) on the jungle battlefield, IJA didn't have much of a chance.

2. The picture of "Japanese Jungle fighter" arguably is also a result of Western perception in the first months of the Pacific war. American and Australian Forces which stopped cold elite IJA/IJN jungle fighters in 1942 in the South Pacific, weren't exactly ideally prepared for this task.

Regards

 

[unmerged(54763)]

I don't like it. That would mean, I have to clock 150 times, until all my eastern front soldiers are in winter uniforms.

I believe in HOI III you could choose hall army groups,not every division.

 

[wosung]

P.S.: What would be realistic. Adapt the casuality rates from illness in especially harsh enviroment. Every army has remarkably high casualities even when units are not up front. Extreme enviroment makes it much worser:

Frex, the avarage annual number of hospital admissions per 1000 Ration strenght in Burma 1942-45 for British troops:
81 Wounds (1944-45 only), 49 injury, 1118 disease

and for US forces in Europe:
94 wounds, 111 injury, 696 disease


Regards

 

[unmerged(54763)]

And to make it even more fun it should not only make those units better or consuming less resources in their specific environment - it should also make them less able in other environments. I vaguely recall reading in one of my books that one of the english divisions caught in the attack by the japanese on Malaysia was fully equipped and trained for battle in the african desert.

Of course we could have re-adaptation on "standard" climate stance--I believe division of tanks or troops painted in white,shining on summer skye from kilometers is is not good idea

 

[unmerged(61232)]

You guys are overcomplicating it.

For winter troops:
-increase supply cost
-increase combat efficiency (higher attack/defence)
*only in winter conditions*

For antipartisan troops:
-higher suppression
-higher combat efficiency against irregular divisions

For jungle/desert/mountain/urban units:
-increase supply cost
-increase combat efficiency (higher attack/defence)
*only in their particular terrain*


Simple.

 

[unmerged(134054)]

Clicking 150 times again when "winter is over" would only happen if "winter" and "summer" equipment would be different - I don´t think that in say western or middle europe the difference is large enough to need to be simulated. Just different colours of uniforms certainly is nothing needed IMO.

However WINTER equipment as in equipment fit to still functioning in conditions of the russian winter or worse the mudfests of russian autumn should not need to be "turned off" when the time of summer comes. The units outfitted for the eastfront should still have their winterequipment during the summer and only need to have it removed if they would be moved outside the areas that had the harsh russian winter.

I can imagine Hitler calling into each divsion in the middle of November, asking:
- How are you, boys? Everybody got winter coats, valenki und ushankas on? :wacko:

Why should we 'dress Barbie/ undress Barbie' game or demonize Russian winter? It was just a cold (not the coldest winter in that period) winter with real frost that arrived in late December, when German troops were broken.

By winter 1942/1943 Germany army had winter equipment in abundance and the problem was solved.

It's only tech. and nothing else. You are able to play for Germany since 1936 and avoid mistakes made by Hitler and OKW (equip your army with proper winter outfit, antifreeze, adjust machines by making 'Arctic Equipment' research).
The same with USSR agains Suomi.

 

[unmerged(54763)]

I can imagine Hitler calling into each divsion in the middle of November, asking:
- How are you, boys? Everybody got winter coats, valenki und ushankas on? :wacko:

Why should we 'dress Barbie/ undress Barbie' game or demonize Russian winter? It was just a cold (not the coldest winter in that period) winter with real frost that arrived in late December, when German troops were broken.

By winter 1942/1943 Germany army had winter equipment in abundance and the problem was solved.

It's only tech. and nothing else. You are able to play for Germany since 1936 and avoid mistakes made by Hitler and OKW (equip your army with proper winter outfit, antifreeze, adjust machines by making 'Arctic Equipment' research).
The same with USSR agains Suomi.

Winter 1941/1942 was one of the coldest in 20-st century.

But, there is Russian proverb :" When it drops below -10 C°, all temperatures are the same"

 

[Jmland]

The thing that German soldiers weren't prepared for the Russian winter is already simulated by not having Germany be advanced in the 'winter equipment' techs.

Not quite correct. Germany HAD the tech, but deliberately chose NOT to equip it's soldiers on the Eastern Front with the Winter Warfare gear during the 41 winter campaign. They did in subsequent winters, but the attrition during the first winter basically killed any possibility of a clear victory in Russia.

The implication is....
-at least a one time supply hit to equip a unit (i.e significant cost)
-a supply hit to transport the gear to the unit (short term strain on TC)
-a supply hit to maintain/replace gear in use (long term strain on TC)

I personally think that it could be a good idea, if implimented correctly. This would mean the option either to automatic "equip all units" for those players who favor this, or the ability to equip certain units only, or some combination of the above.

 

[zeekater]

Not quite correct. Germany HAD the tech, but deliberately chose NOT to equip it's soldiers on the Eastern Front with the Winter Warfare gear during the 41 winter campaign. They did in subsequent winters, but the attrition during the first winter basically killed any possibility of a clear victory in Russia.

You shouldn't think of the techs as really inventions about the equipment. I mean, how much research does it take to come up with a good warm jacket?

The techs signify more 'how much equipment do you want your troops to have' IMO.

 

[Zaku]

I don't see how this option would add to the gameplay.

Just add a tech branch for winter equipment, and there you go. Units should have higher supply demands during winter, representing the transportation of specialised equipment.

As for jungles there are the mountain troops. Fighting in a forest is not to much different then figtning in the jungles.
For deserts... well I don't think there was a desert division ever. Sure, they painted their tanks in yellow, got some training fighting in the sands, but they didn't get any specialised equipment, and stuff.

I believe in HOI III you could choose hall army groups,not every division.

My point was: I want to play a wargame, and not go like "Hans my boy, did you bring your jager pants with you?"

 

[Jmland]

You shouldn't think of the techs as really inventions about the equipment. I mean, how much research does it take to come up with a good warm jacket?

The techs signify more 'how much equipment do you want your troops to have' IMO.

Your point about gear/tech is well taken, at least for individual soldiers gear. For equipment (like trucks/tanks/etc), it is somewhat different. You need entirely different lubricants that don't freeze (talking winter here), engine heaters to keep the engines from freezing (talk to someone from Alaska/Canada about this), different sets of alloys in the gun tubes (so they don't shatter when fired).

For dessert warfare, you need radiator fluid that won't boil, good seals on the moving parts so sand/dust don't get inside and screw the bearing ups.

I'm not really talking about warm gloves and suntan oil (although they are important also). More on the order of mods to the equipment like had to happen in Desert Strom (chopper blades had to be coated with special sealant because the sand was eroding the metal, special filters on the air intakes of the tank engines for the dust, things like that)

 

[HMS Enterprize]

I don't like it. That would mean, I have to clock 150 times, until all my eastern front soldiers are in winter uniforms.

To be honest, if a player was smart, most eastern front division would be winter equipped anyway, no?

And perhaps this could be incorporated into the building process. This will be even easier if division templates can be saved. Then you only have to click if you want to retrain/equip an existing non-special division.


On a completely seperate note, is there any historical precedent for specialized urban combat and/or seige specialist divisions?