spawning units everywhere on the map/having tactical ops everywhere feels wrong

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VoodooDog

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hey,

i love the game, but i think its not right that i can fly with a small drone anywhere on the map, spawn units there and have a fight in which i can use every tactical ops operation to the same efficiency as next to my colonies, right?

i mean in AoW Shadow magic you had some kind of "cast range" so you cant use ur spells anywhere and in this setting it makes alot of sense too.
when i fire rockets or start a bombardement (tactical ops) they originate from somwhere and this somewhere is certainly not the orbit of the planet.
please give heros a cast range again or give colonies radio towers (which will have the same function as the magic towers in shadow magic, higher tiers increase your casting range).
 

Jean-Luc

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Everyone can do the same, it's balanced. Why is it a problem?

Heroes can't use "spells" themselves in PF like in AoW3, everyone draws from the shared pool, so there's a different kind of limitation in place.
 

VoodooDog

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you can give everyone a doomsday weapon on turn one and it would be balanced. thats not the point here.
the point is, it just feels bad. flying a probe to the end of the planet and doing all my stuff with the same efficiency in the enemy territory as it would happen in the mid of my empire makes no sense.
i cant explain it to myself. not lore wise, not gameplay wise. its just not a good mechanic in my opinion and no AoW title had it in before (not that this is of any importance).
 

Tombles

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We actually experimented with different ways of fixing this. For example, that you can only use operations in a zone that you have a hero in, or a special "spotter" unit such as a modded scout. Another idea was to allow war ships to project "operation coverage" to adjacent sectors, so that you could use them a little bit like a modern boat would fire off cruise missiles.

The main issue we ran into was that it was extremely hard to communicate how had coverage where. The player already needs to keep track of who owns a sector, but then they also needed to see who had coverage, and a single sector could have coverage from several players. We had no way of visualization it that wasn't really confusing, so we decided to see what would happen if we just used vision range like we have now. Although it does indeed feel a bit odd, it didn't actually give any real balance issues during testing, so we kept it. If for no other reason that it worked, and it was simple, and the game is already complex enough!
 

VoodooDog

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thanks for the reply, your ideas sound great. doesnt a simple AoW style white (or what ever color makes sens and is not used allready) border do the trick here?
one would think palyers would get accustomed to it very quickly, additionally the mouse over tile tooltip could give us further information like "x has coverage, y has coverage".
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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only thing i miss is having a defensive advantage on spellcasting

like +4 tacops in the hq colony's domain or something
 

Arduano

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The game is already complex enough!
I agree. I am an Age of Wonders player since the first one in the series. I assumed I could just launch Planetfall and wreck mayhem but the steap learning curve surprised me a little. Played 7.5 hours thus far and I am only on turn 22 in the first Vanguard campaign mission (also played the Tutorial).

Having a blast though so great work!
 

VoodooDog

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iam having a blast as well, but steap learning curve? i had a harder time learning almost every other 4x game.
i think what you confuse with complexitie is the sheer amount of "quests" in the first mission coupled with a bad way of displaying and presenting them.
 

Berath

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I wasn't really bothered by it, but it could be a bit more immersive i guess (but only combined with good gameplay mechanics). Maybe one of the expansions could flesh it out a bit more.
You could connect it to the bottom research tree. Add a fourth tech in the first node like geostationary satellite that enables TO on your/neutral territory, another tech like satellite network allows to use TO everywhere and so on. Then you could add strategic operation/s to the covert ops part like signal jammer that prohibits the use of TO in your area, in a certain area (like deploy monitor) or for an army/certain fight.
 

Von Thoma

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iam having a blast as well, but steap learning curve? i had a harder time learning almost every other 4x game.
i think what you confuse with complexitie is the sheer amount of "quests" in the first mission coupled with a bad way of displaying and presenting them.

LOL agree with you , even I like the game it is underwhelming and for me it has no complexity at all ...
IT IS FUN in MP, but already bored to death in SP because no complexity or challenge for me. Everything is to linear ...

So I hope that the DLCs will change that and will not bring us more from the same ...

anyway wish all , enjoy your games ,,,
__________________________________________________________________________________

and yes that you could use that tactical operations , without background feels weird ...

I would prefer that you have to start satellites , which could be shot down to use any of that orders ...
because from where do that missiles come ?
Would feel a lot more immersive ...


________________________________
oooh this was my 666 message LOL
 

nosepose9x

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I appreciate the dev comment explaining why they left this in - and I'm certainly enjoying it. XD Currently having a lot of fun with a syndicate runner behind enemy lines, getting engaged by dvar 2 stacks again and again and summoning sentinel to win every fight.
 

Big J Money

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Firstly, I appreciate the devs taking a moment to comment, it shows how important our impressions of the game are and how much fun we're having (having a blast, btw).

I agree with VooDooDog's point but I'm going to use different words to describe why. Strategy games are all about what choices the player has to make, from turn to turn. If StratOps had a limited range it would increase the number of choices the player has to make. "Clearly I want to settle this colony to my west, it has all the science. Oh, but wait, if I settle to the east it will expand my StratOps range so that I can plat this awesome Operation against my opponent." Or, "Hm, do I spend these influence points on this treaty, or on this forward base which will extend my StratOps coverage into my Opponent's big colony?"

I definitely think this is an area where added complexity is worth the additional choices it proviced the player. The other reason I believe it would be great to limit StratOps is because it means devs are less likely to feel it is necessary to nerf the more powerful ones. They have more room to make them more powerful or more interesting by balancing against the fact that they aren't global. I would rather see more interesting and powerful "spells" in the game that have limitations that I must figure out how to work around as the player, than to have a bunch of weaker ones that I simply click a button and make them work. The final reason why I think a range is good is because it's another variable that devs can tweak. One example was a mod that can turn a scout into something that can extend the strategic operations range, but it doesn't have to be a mod. It could be different for every faction. This is yet another way to balance the faction abilities against each other, to rate which ones have the highest capability of more easily extending their StratOp range. The ones that cannot extend their range... maybe they have the more powerful ones.

Just some food for thought.
 

TheDarkMaster

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You could maybe make this work with modified costs, rather than needing coverage. It makes it so that everyone can always perform operations, but how many they can do is modified by circumstance. It would be a bit like how the one map feature changes things.

Say if in friendly territory operations take x fewer operation points to use. This lets defenders keep the operations up for longer and makes certain they can still use them when protecting their capital even after many fights have already passed. Armies that are neither in friendly cities nor have a hero in them take more operation points or cost extra energy to use tactical operations in, limiting how many free wins/damage you can get with tiny scout forces.
 

VoodooDog

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I appreciate the dev comment explaining why they left this in - and I'm certainly enjoying it. XD Currently having a lot of fun with a syndicate runner behind enemy lines, getting engaged by dvar 2 stacks again and again and summoning sentinel to win every fight.

seems like a totally reasonable gameplay mechanic

You could maybe make this work with modified costs, rather than needing coverage.

that make sense. you need to provide more energy to transport x further away. i could live with that, although i would much more enjoy a sophisticated coverage system.
 

Garresh

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iam having a blast as well, but steap learning curve? i had a harder time learning almost every other 4x game.
i think what you confuse with complexitie is the sheer amount of "quests" in the first mission coupled with a bad way of displaying and presenting them.
I disagree. Sort of. A lot of 4x games have vastly more complicated systems, but many still have clear cut optimal strategies, or are simpler in terms of practical decisions. To use the iconic civ as an example, your first 50 turns really only involve 5 or 6 actually important decisions. And things like economics snd tech trees, while complicated, are ultimately just weighing when to pursue key tech to get an edge. Perhaps I'm minimizing it, but I found vanilla civ 5 boring as all hell because I would use the exact same strategy without fail in every game and iy worked every time regardless of layout or diplomacy. A lotrof other 4x games are better, and Grand strategy games ARE far more complicated.

What makes planetfall complex for me isn't the systems itself. It's the number of meaningful decisions you have to make, and the number of variables to be weighed.

Jumping genres a bit, for all its hype, Eve Online is actually a very simple game. Absolutely excellent in its time, but often overcomplicated as a ratio of key decisions.

Planetfall doesn't do that. You're constantly making decisions. And they're all high impact.
 

Tombles

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Thanks for the feedback everyone! While I do agree that having some type of geographical limitation on Strategic Ops would add more depth and flavor to the system, I really can't stress enough how much we already tried to add it.

Things we tried:

1) Having units that projected operation coverage into the zone they were in
2) Having operations placed onto units (like those big trucks with nukes on them the Russians have) which you had to drive into range of the target
3) Having an orbital layer where the player deployed satelites to generate zones of coverage (like a cross between AoW2s towers the orbitals in Beyond Earth)

But in the end, they all detracted from the overall feeling of the game, so we dropped them. I'm not saying the door is closed on this in the future, I'm just trying to say that I understadn where you're coming from and I share your sentiments.
 

Garresh

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Thanks for the feedback everyone! While I do agree that having some type of geographical limitation on Strategic Ops would add more depth and flavor to the system, I really can't stress enough how much we already tried to add it.

Things we tried:

1) Having units that projected operation coverage into the zone they were in
2) Having operations placed onto units (like those big trucks with nukes on them the Russians have) which you had to drive into range of the target
3) Having an orbital layer where the player deployed satelites to generate zones of coverage (like a cross between AoW2s towers the orbitals in Beyond Earth)

But in the end, they all detracted from the overall feeling of the game, so we dropped them. I'm not saying the door is closed on this in the future, I'm just trying to say that I understadn where you're coming from and I share your sentiments.

Honestly I don't see it as a big deal in this one. Something I've mentioned in other threads is that from what I've seen really high end "wow" spells aren't as big of a thing as they used to be compared to the rest of the series. I have mostly been toying with synthesis, voidtech, kir'ko, and Syndicate though. So I could be wrong.

The main city siege type spells for me come online in midgame, either by doomsday structures, or that one Syndicate op that blasts a stack(Cant remember name off hand). It seems to me that given the somewhat change in feel of strategic ops, and the fact the high end ones come online later, it's a total non-issue. Remember the spells that would mass Terra form everything in your area or change up terrain? Or the water spec spell drench the earth which came on fairly early? That spell was devastating for hit and run tactics as goblins because you could slow down enemy forces, ignore the penalties(goblins) , AND trash their roads for good measure.

It's just not a thing I've seen from the classes and specs I've been playing(correct me if I'm wrong). Also, the fact that commanders and heroes can get an ability to massively boost op strength near them somewhat fulfills the same role.

I do kind of miss the larger sized strategic ops of the last game, and I don't think they'd be unbalanced, as long as they're not Shadow Magic strength. In that games you needed domains to balance out the insane strength of late game overland spells. God dropping a few Tornadoes on an enemy army then picking up the pieces was practically an auto-win leading up to a siege. And Force ships doing drive by attacks over mountains then running away? Or how about that one fire spell that makes every enemy within your domain take damage every turn. Which at the time you got it was like a 30 hex radius iirc? Or the jacked up version of Nightwish in Shadow Magic(Domain of Darkness I think?) which completely destroyed enemy Intel gathering potential. Then again Air had City Spy and all that nonsense plus haste. God I loved rushing frosting t4 dire wolves, hasting them, then running around trashing enemy farmland and razing their resource structures.

Sorry this turned into a reminiscing thread for me. Back on point, as long as large scale strategic overland ops are research gated to midgame its totally fine imho.
 

VoodooDog

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well, if you allready had implemented it, give us the option to turn it on? maybe? :D
then the community could work out a more viable way of visualizing it and maybe, eventually, everyone will use it.