spanish involvement in defence of France

[Wildcat_PL]

A little bit of speculation if you might, I wish to know the community opinion in this matter.
Lets say Rep. Spain wins the Civil War. Then it joines the Allies in May 1940 and brings 50+ divisions in defence of France. Now France has 120+ infantry divisions, because of the EXP forces, but still all the conditions for vichy are met. However defending all those infantry will be very hard. Consider this and the fact that the French are not alone in the continental europe, as they were historicaly, should this have any effect on the vichy event? If so, what kind of change would you propose?

 

[Blecky]

A little bit of speculation if you might, I wish to know the community opinion in this matter.
Lets say Rep. Spain wins the Civil War. Then it joines the Allies in May 1940 and brings 50+ divisions in defence of France. Now France has 120+ infantry divisions, because of the EXP forces, but still all the conditions for vichy are met. However defending all those infantry will be very hard. Consider this and the fact that the French are not alone in the continental europe, as they were historicaly, should this have any effect on the vichy event? If so, what kind of change would you propose?

Well, they weren´t alone (although they might have felt abandoned ). But if all the requirements for Vichy are met in spite of those additional Spanish divisions, why should they have reacted in any other way than the two outcomes of the event propose?

 

[Wildcat_PL]

For one because they have the pyrenees mountains to withdraw to and hold the enemy. With industry base, and supplies sources savely behind them?

 

[Blecky]

For one because they have the pyrenees mountains to withdraw to and hold the enemy. With industry base, and supplies sources savely behind them?

Then Germany has already conquered all of France. I´d rather doubt that the pyrenees will really strenghten France´s will to resist. The industry would only be sufficient for the Spanish troops. If any French troops escaped, they´d put quite some strain on the IC.

 

[Wildcat_PL]

No they "only" conquered pay-de-calais, ile-de-paris, normandy, bretagne, and west coast. French can strategicaly withdraw without getting smashed.
The human french player would select "never surrender" naturaly, but i wish to discuss the AI reaction to this rather unusual and rare situation.

 

[Mario78]

No they "only" conquered pay-de-calais, ile-de-paris, normandy, bretagne, and west coast. French can strategicaly withdraw without getting smashed.
The human french player would select "never surrender" naturaly, but i wish to discuss the AI reaction to this rather unusual and rare situation.

In real life, the French army started to fall apart the very day the first panzers broke through their front line and the French populace never cared : remember that the day the Wermacht arrived in Paris, most cafè were open for business and many sported a new insignia reading "Willkommen" !
So, I really don't see what a difference it would have made, except perhaps that the Wehrmacht would have continued its offensive through Spain up to Gibraltar and changed the course of the war in the Mediterranean and consequently in North Africa

 

[DarkLight]

I can't imagine a devastated Spain, no matter who won, coming up with 50 combat capable divisions.

 

[Mrdie]

According to Arthur H. Landis in Spain! The Unfinished Revolution (1972), Spain under Negrín in the last months of the Civil War was actually waiting for war to break out across Europe, since in his view a great anti-Fascist coalition of nations (including France) would emerge and the Republic would be saved from defeat.

Then a military coup d'état led by Casado occurred, Negrín was booted out, and Casado began negotiations with Franco. Then this happened:

Julián Besteiro had broadcast to the Madrid populace that “Juan Negrín had been guilty of deceiving the people with false hopes of new armament, and of a world war which would merge the Spanish struggle into a victorious war against the Fascist powers.”

Plus the Republic was waiting for Soviet-made supplies held up at the French border due to non-intervention to be released (which they certainly would in such a scenario). Of course, they did wind up being released once the Nationalists were recognized as the legitimate Government... so Franco got the supplies instead of the Republic.

So yeah, the Republic needed France's help more than France needed Spain.

 

[DesertSnow]

Just change the vichy triggers. I am a very inexperienced modder, yet i have done it myself on a number of occasions.

 

[unmerged(138184)]

Spain was not a serious player and a power of any magnitude whatsoever at the time. I don't suspect their involvement would have materially affected the resolve of the likes of Pierre Laval to sell out and cut a deal.

Seems to me that the serious proposal of a "Franco-British Union" right before everything fell apart would have been the best play for a France willing to fight. (Temporary political unification of Britain and France - thus no "France" to surrender.) When that idea was floated Churchill was supposedly quite excited and thought it actually had a chance to come off.

If France did not go for that I suspect they wouldn't have considered defending the Republique from the other side of the Pyrenees.

(BTW there is a mod plug-in if ever there was one. Put a 5% chance into the Vichy event of new country = "Franco-British Union" inheriting the realms of both UK and France. Talk about throwing a crazy new dynamic into the game if that fires.)

 

[Wildcat_PL]

So I guess thats means a big NO. France surrenders, Spains follow after, Gibraltar closed and Italians rule the mediterean sea, possibly caputuring Suez... thanks for you opinions