Spanish Colonies

[Evan05]

According to the Wikipedia page "Spain and World War II":

"This had become part of a strategy to forestall Allied intervention in north-west Africa. Hitler promised that "Germany would do everything in its power to help Spain" and would recognise Spanish claims to French territory in Morocco, in exchange for a share of Moroccan raw materials. Franco responded warmly, but without any firm commitment."

This at least point towards that Spain wanted Morocco, and after the war (if Germany won) I doubt Vichy France would stand up to a German-Spanish-Italian alliance in which Germany already has chunks of the French land under permanent occupation and control of the upper echelons of the French commanding armed forces.

Also at the meeting of Hendaya, Franco also wanted Cameroon to be joined into the Guinea colony, further confirmed his desire for French Morocco, and parts of French Algeria. He also demanded Petroleum, food, and arms, all of which Hitler could not provide.

 

[Unknowed]

What do you think republican spain claimed?

To be honest I don't think they would have claimed anything because they didn't had any claim at all.
The republican goverment was more focused on reforming the goverment and society than anything else, in fact they were probably more inclined to release Cataluña and Pais Vasco as free nations or to make a federation with them, than to claim anything.

Anyway, in my opinion if they hadn't been defeated by Franco they would have probably became comunist and helped the allies and France to defeat Germany.

 

[Rudolf Hessbart]

Ok, thank you

 

[Evan05]

To be honest I don't think they would have claimed anything because they didn't had any claim at all.
The republican goverment was more focused on reforming the goverment and society than anything else, in fact they were probably more inclined to release Cataluña and Pais Vasco as free nations or to make a federation with them, than to claim anything.

Anyway, in my opinion if they hadn't been defeated by Franco they would have probably became comunist and helped the allies and France to defeat Germany.

There was no way the Republicans would've became Communist, and I strongly doubt they would've released autonomous regions. The Republicans are often seen as the "good guys" in the Spanish civil war, but in reality they were not much better.

 

[Fulmen]

Somewhere in the beer-sodden, whore-numbed recesses I seem to remember Franco wanting at least part of Algeria as well and that being a major sticking-point in negotiations with Germany, who didn't want to piss off Vichy. However, it could be I'm remembering some counterfactual thing that never happened.

This has been a pretty useless post even by my standards.

Franco wanted parts of Algeria up to Oran.

 

[mighij]

The Republicans are often seen as the "good guys" in the Spanish civil war, but in reality they were not much better.

How do you mean they were not much better? The Nationalist executed nearly 200.000 people and their death squads were encouraged by those in command. On the republican side nearly 40.000 people were shot and most of these actions were condemned by several prominent republicans. Half of those executions where in the first, chaotic, month of the civil war and while the Republic side tried to put a stop to it the Nationalist side increased their reign of terror

 

[Dunstall]

They might want Philippines, and Cuba back too

They would have had buckley's chance of getting the phillipines. Japan would possily have something to say about that.

 

[Blackwolfpt]

Franco did historically want to annex Portugal as well.

That's not true. He only contemplated an invasion in 1974 (way out of the game's frame), because he feared that a communist government would be elected into power, following the April revolution. He never intended to annex it, and that would have been impractical for various reasons.

- Portugal was allied with the UK, which Spain couldn't possible match.
- Portugal was from 1926 to 1974 a dictatorship just like Spain, he actually even got some support from Salazar during the Spanish civil war and they had very cordial relations.
- Spain was in a very debilitating position after the Spanish Civil War.

 

[Zoob]

The tightening control of soviet controllers over the Republican administration and military would indeed have probably have seen a victorious Second Republic fall under the sphere of influence of the soviet union and likely become ideologically communist.

 

[PanosB3]

Franco never wanted to annex Portugal, the only plan for an invasion in Portugal was Operation Felix which stated:

1) Immediate invasion of Gibraltar

2) The Germans proposed an invasion in Portugal including Madeira and Azores as an insurance that Britain wont interfere.

In reality Salazar and Franco tried to maintain ''friendly'' relations as both wanted to avoid confrontations.

 

[Rudolf Hessbart]

Thank you

 

[WSnova]

Saying that the republicans were as bad as the nationalists is like saying Dresden was somewhat equivalent to the forbidden topic that happened on the Eastern Front.

Sure, its unfortunate and bad stuff happened from both sides, but intent and scale matter.. a lot.

The Republicans wouldn´t have released any country though, that would be their death sentence, they probably would have tried with more autonomy. I doubt they would have interferred on the war until it was a foregone conclusion.

As for Nationalist spain? Retaking America was not really a serious option considered. They knew they couldn´t hold them and by that time not many people cared about reclaiming the empire.

Their only realistic ambitions would be getting the French North African Territory and Gibraltar and chances are that Italy won´t like it so much, so unless they can manage to bring to the table more than the Italians I doubt Germany would promise them much (and both knew it was unrealistic).

So yeah, as an Axis member and for gameplay focuses, it would be taking the western Mediterranean, and it should probably come at the cost of Italy remaining neutral. As far as allied focus, probably more on the side of liberating France and fighting against Italy/Vichy France

 

[Evan05]

How do you mean they were not much better? The Nationalist executed nearly 200.000 people and their death squads were encouraged by those in command. On the republican side nearly 40.000 people were shot and most of these actions were condemned by several prominent republicans. Half of those executions where in the first, chaotic, month of the civil war and while the Republic side tried to put a stop to it the Nationalist side increased their reign of terror

The republicans weren't much better. Acting as if they were some triumphant, heroic faction desperately fighting off the cancer of Fascism in the name of liberty and democracy would be misleading.

Saying that the republicans were as bad as the nationalists is like saying Dresden was somewhat equivalent to the forbidden topic that happened on the Eastern Front.

Sure, its unfortunate and bad stuff happened from both sides, but intent and scale matter.. a lot.

No one said the Nationalists were just as bad as the Republicans. But thinking that there was a definitive "good" and "bad" side in Spanish civil war is silly.

 

[EmperorBatman999]

On the topic of the Republic's possible post-Civil War ideology, it all depends on who gave help to the Republic the most.

If we historically follow that the USSR remains the primary official provider, the Moscow-backed Popular Front government would probably try pulling towards being a part of the Comintern with Stalin as puppeteer. So it would be Communist, or at least very socialist, and would reform more towards a Soviet-style system. The FP already eliminated most of its rival parties in the middle of the war like Trotskyist POUM and anarchist CNT and after Spain's neglect by Democratic Liberal powers, the moderate democrats in Spain wouldn't be popular.

If the US, UK, or France contributed before the USSR could, then we would see the Republic moving more towards libera democracy like before the war.

Either way, the Republic was not going to join WW2 unless the war was nearly won. They might contribute in a minimal background capacity by sending noncombatants for medical and work details, and they may encourage willing Spaniards to volunteer in foreign armies in a similar way some RepublicanSpaniards and former International Brigaders found service in the Soviet Union, but no direct intervention.

Like Franco in reality, the Republic would be weak. It might actually turn out worse than Franco had it, as at least his army was now experienced and he still possessed his best assets, albeit weakened and war weary. The Republic would lose its best troops, the International Brigades, after SCW - most would probably go home unless the Republic guaranteed the Brigaders a place in Spain through providing them with citizenship, work, and housing. That would be a tall order for the fragile Republic to fulfill those wishes. With that said, many Brigaders may just find a home in Spain anyway far from their home countries intolerant of their communist or socialist beliefs. Many Brigaders liked Spain anyway for its culture, like Hemingway whom wrote a great deal not just about the Civil War he was reporting on but also the culture of the Spanish. Still, getting the International Brigades back up to strength would be an incredibly difficult task for the purpose of fighting a cross-border war - continuing the fight against Fascism would not be a strong enough motivation to convince the Internationals to stay/return in Spain.

But anyway premature republican intervention in WW2 would get them steamrolled and lose all the gains made by the Republic when the Germans and Italians install a collaborative Nationalist government...they might just spring the arrested fascist leaders out of jail to supply the government if they didn't flee or get executed after the Republic's victory.

 

[Unknowed]

There was no way the Republicans would've became Communist, and I strongly doubt they would've released autonomous regions. The Republicans are often seen as the "good guys" in the Spanish civil war, but in reality they were not much better.

It is true that they didn't wanted to release nations at all, in fact that was one of the first problems that the republic had to deal with, but they were going towards making a federate state with those autonomies.

As for what you said about the republicans, it is true that the radical republicans took land from people and killed people from the right (both of this things influenced the support of Franco by people) but they were FAR FAR better than Franco, they had some of the best spanish intellectuals as ministers in the goverment and they redacted the constitution of 1931 wich was one of the most progresist constitutions of the world (in that time period).

 

[Dakka]

I don't know if historical Spain wanted it, but I know for sure that rebuilding the Spanish Empire will be my goal once HoI IV is released

 

[Metz]

I doubt they'd get Cuba back. Everything in the Americas was guaranteed by the United States. They would only get Cuba and Puerto Rico if the USA were to fall.

 

[No idea]

, they had some of the best spanish intellectuals as ministers in the goverment and they redacted the constitution of 1931 wich was one of the most progresist constitutions of the world (in that time period).

The number of intelectuals as ministers was tiny. Have in mind there were more than 25 different goverments in just 6 years during the Second Republic. And i wouldnt say the "best" were among them. Most of the "best" intelectuals supported the Republic in the early stages, but many changed their views after seeing what it had become.

 

[Unknowed]

Most of the "best" intelectuals...

Are you implying that José Ortega y Gasset and Miguel de Unamuno weren't one of the best intellectuals that Spain had? If you are then I strongly disagree.

but many changed their views after seeing what it had become.

True.

Anyway I must say that I'm sorry, Im strongly influenced by my surroundings, among the spanish population there its a lot of ignorance, people idolizes the second republic and they don't see or they don't want to see or talk about the bad things that happend in the republic.

Also if I'm telling wrong information I beg you pardon because I'm studying for Selectividad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectividad) and even tho I'm currently studying the second republic I still need to finish.

 

[Zoob]

Remember to answer all the questions in Selectividad, especially if you're doing maths, I half chanced the last question and ended up with a 7. when I was on for a 5. Good luck with it.

Considering you're already studying for it now, and I didn't start studying until the day before, you probably have a better chance than me anyway.