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Secret Master

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German aid before Marco Polo, Soviet aid, British Burma road.
Of course, the amount was nowhere near the scale of Lend-Lease or Cash-and-Carry, but the intent was there.

Germany had advisors and some military partnership going on with Chiang Kai Check. The USSR also helped the Kuomingtang in the early stage of the civil war, before they shifted their support to the CPC.

But by 1937 all of this is quite marginal already.

I kind of know about all that. But having advisors on the ground, and providing 10,000 tons of ordnance a day are two different things.

China produced zero aircraft and little in the way of artillery - all the aircraft and the majority of the artillery it fielded was of foreign origin.

No artillery? I didn't know that.

So, was the material support China received before 1941 significant enough to even contribute to the defeats Japan suffered prior to Pearl Harbor?
 

potski

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Spanish "civil" war should last as long as those financing both sides continue. With a "crisis meter" in effect as in
Victoria2.

On one side Fascist Germany,Italy commit basically a coup d'eta in Spain thus civil war emerges, on other UK,France,
US on paper democracies in realities overlook Spain getting attacked by Germany,ITaly. ..USSR fighting it alone thus
increasing USSR doubt about west as anti-fascist bloc, which comes into play when USSR&West fail to form anti-Hitler
coalition,or even adding to this doubt with the 1938 Munich debacle..

So it shouldn't be just to get some war experience, machine examination/planes,tanks, but also political progression we
need to get the WW2 moving..

its really a shame political and diplomacy aspect is so disregarded and we just clash with divisions and that is that..

p.s.:the longer any side (fascist or communist) keep adding arms,money to their benefactor in Spain the more "threatening"
they become to the world..so you can play as USSR that increases the help to such a degree Communist win in Spain but that
might trigger US,UK,France and Axis forces to form a anti-USSR coalition.. or withdraw after getting some military exp. and let
axis win and get their threat levels up on the scale..
This mechanism of "crisis" from Victoria could very well be used to prolong historic conflict to last "proper" amount of time.

In China as well, why didn't Japanese take over, well US and USSR helped with material, how much material needed? if you give
not enough China could be overrun, if too much China could over-take too easily while you are not in position to demand stuff
from them afterwards.. again, politics, diplomacy.. not just military aspect.

It's not correct that Germany and Italy tried to stage a coup, there is no evidence of their involvement before the coup. The Carlists (one of the fascist militias) had officers trained in Italy and they bought weapons in Germany, but through private channels. But the attempted coup was staged by a group of senior military generals. In mainland Spain it failed in many areas, particularly in many major cities (Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia etc), and then became a civil war with the country split.

In the weeks that followed both Germany and Italy provided assistance, first transport planes to move the rebel Army of Africa across the Straits of Gibraltar to the mainland, from where they they began a march northward towards Madrid. Later some direct military assistance was provided, some Pz. I tanks, AA guns etc. But it was not until Nov 1936 that the Condor Legion was formed. By that stage it was becoming apparent that the rebel fascists were not going to have any quick military victory.

All three intervening countries had other things in their mind in July 1936 than Spain. Germany with reoccupying the Rhineland and putting pressure on Austria for the Anschluss. Italy was at war in Ethiopia. And the Soviets were intent on avoiding getting involved in other countries, and were preparing for the purging of the Red Army and the show trials of Stalin's opponents.

Going back to some of the original discussion, the transportation of the Army to mainland, and then march on Madrid, took months. Despite any significant military force in the south west. In HOI3 the same movements would have taken a fraction of the time.

The provision of military aid to China in 1937-38 was not the deciding factor. Japan had no plans to conquer China and occupy/annex it. Their plan was only to occupy north east China, install puppet governments to provide buffer states. In June 1937 they never even had a plan to invade the Shanghai/Nanking region, just to secure Shanxi and Inner Mongolia. I don't believe they failed to take over Nat. China by anything done by US or SOV, but because they didn't intend to. They had "limited" war aims, and assumed that China would disintegrate and Chiang would be overthrown, and a peace treaty would be signed, as had happened every previous time as they expanded into the Asia mainland - Korea, Port Arthur, Manchuria, Jehol.
 

potski

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I kind of know about all that. But having advisors on the ground, and providing 10,000 tons of ordnance a day are two different things.



No artillery? I didn't know that.

So, was the material support China received before 1941 significant enough to even contribute to the defeats Japan suffered prior to Pearl Harbor?

They could produce some artillery, but most was imported or captured. And not Lend Lease until later in the war. So stuff from abroad was just purchased from some of the main European manufacturers. This page gives alot of information about the different artillery pieces they used, and where they came from:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=162448&p=1425272&hilit=chinese+artillery+factory#p1425272
 

Chukada

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I kind of know about all that. But having advisors on the ground, and providing 10,000 tons of ordnance a day are two different things.



No artillery? I didn't know that.

So, was the material support China received before 1941 significant enough to even contribute to the defeats Japan suffered prior to Pearl Harbor?

Potski covered it basically. There was basically no artillery at all in China, and the few artillery batteries that existed had been bought (not given), from foreign powers, these artillery units were used as special attachments by the Central Army, like independent brigades, meaning they only got sent to the front when something big was going to happen. Chinese troops had plenty of small arms, but a severe shortage of everything else. For example, when the German trained divisions attacked the Japanese in Shanghai and almost drove them into the sea, they did not have weapons strong enough to destroy Japanese pillboxes, which meant that Chinese infantry had to storm and overrun those positions costing valuable time and a lot of casualties. China did not have enough factories to meet its small arms requirements, and it had no factories capable of producing artillery. It should be said though, few Chinese soldiers understood in-direct fire. So artillery pieces would more often be used like field artillery. Also by the end of 1937 China lost 90% of its industrial capacity, and the German trained divisions had been almost all destroyed, meaning the Nationalists had to rely on provincial armies with questionable loyalties, resources and leadership.

With that said, the supplies that were sent over the Burma Road, I believe Chiang Kai Shek said was enough to supply one division for a several weeks. China had hundreds of divisions. These supplies also were seized by theBritish as well at one time, after China bought them, for the "war effort". For the massive work that was required on the behalf of the Chinese people to build the burma road by hand, it really wasn't worth the effort, as the supplies that came through were rather lackluster. China still managed to send a large force into Burma through Yunnan to aid the British in defending the Burma Road, when the British retreated from Burma they did not tell the Chinese, resulting in the Chinese force losing 50% of its soldiers that tried to retreat back to Yunnan. The most significant aid China recieved in the war was American pilots, but they were mercenaries up until 1941.

During 1937 by the way, the Soviets and the Chinese fought a war over Xinjiang province. The governor of Xinjiang was pro-soviet. It was Hui Muslims from the territory in hoi3 called Xi Bei San Ma (3 Ma's family), that fought these xinjiang troops, they also fought the Soviet troops as well, and performed rather well for only possessing small arms. Soviet Aid was even less than Allied Aid through the Burma road. Though again, Soviet pilots were important. Chiang's Central Army did not fight the Soviets because he was also recieving aid from them at the same time, so he got the Mas to attack the Soviets and try and remove them from Xinjiang, and pretended it to be a rebellious warlord, though the Mas were very pro KMT. They were unsuccessful though in removing the soviets from Xinjiang, although later during the war the governor would switch allegiances and join the KMT.

What China really needed was another nation's army to do the dying for it on the Chinese mainland.
 
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darkpatriot

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Manpower was a much more complicated issue than is represented in HOI3. Obviously it has to be abstracted in some way but I think they could do better that the HOI3 model.

Each country had their own particular manpower challenges that they had to face. Here is an interesting write-up on US manpower challenges. http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/manpower.aspx

I'd be curious if anyone had any good write-ups on the manpower challenges that other countries faced. A broad picture of what manpower issues different countries had would be useful for determining how modeling manpower in the game could be done.
 
Last edited:

Secret Master

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They could produce some artillery, but most was imported or captured. And not Lend Lease until later in the war. So stuff from abroad was just purchased from some of the main European manufacturers. This page gives alot of information about the different artillery pieces they used, and where they came from:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=162448&p=1425272&hilit=chinese+artillery+factory#p1425272

Makes sense, I guess.

Not that I use ART for Nat. China in HOI3 anyway. Either my MIL divisions are sitting in ports and it would be a waste to give them ART, or I'm using MTN to prepare for offensives into Manchuria and Korea, in which case ART is a pointless due to logistics limitations.

Hell, I didn't even use ART to push across Siberia and take Moscow during a Chinese initiated Operation Unthinkable. I can't imagine I would use a lot of ART in HOI4, either. Give me a 5 million rifles, and I'll teach Japan some humility. :)
 

Tomnoddy

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These ideas would certainly drag the Spanish civil war out but they would have major effects on wars elsewhere. A historically quick victory in Poland and france would be impossible. Encirclements would be very rare and blitzkrieg wouldn't happen. We would basically have a WWI style stalemate in europe .
Im not sure what the answer is. Perhaps we could have these effects as a default with the ability to research "blitzkrieg" giving far quicker advances. It certainly wouldn't be good to wreck the battle of france or barbarosa in order to fix the Spanish civil war.

- something we absolutely want to avoid !

There were significant differences between that campaign and Fall Gelb though

*german army more mechanised
*better infrastructure
*more forgiving terrain

Even so there are limits to how far an army can advance from its supply railhead. For the Germans, that just just shy of Dunkirk. At some point , the distance from the supply depot gets too far for its own supply trucks to bring everything up to the frontline. Mechanised units (tracked vehicles in particular) also have limits to how far they can drive before the vehicles need maintenance - caterpillar tracks wear out quickly! So, after Fall Gelb was a pause while the tanks got a refit, logistics reorganised.

The game sort of models this with Org, but I don't think it's a complete solution. Org loss from fighting or marching should recover very fast given a break from combat. A good night's sleep or two, you're better. Loose all Org being forced from a defensive position? Once you've fallen back to the next prepared position behind it, you're pretty formiddable again. However, moving railheads and repairing tracks should take weeks. These things need to be tracked separately from Org, as slowing Org regain drastically worsens gameplay.

Incidentally, German early-war tanks were weak on firepower and protection, but had good mobility, and mechanical reliability, which may have contributed to how far they were able to advance from starting points. In contrast French tanks were well armed and armoured, but most were very slow, somewhat unreliable and had small fuel tanks. Late war, this was reversed somewhat... Sherman vs Tiger. Also the T-34, was unusual for the time, for having a Diesel engine. This improved fuel economy and allowed it to travel further between fill-ups, making deep encirclements like Operation Bagration possible.