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SonofWinter

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Having fought and won a war against Super Denmark in the 1550s for who would control Muscovy. In 1620 I begin to integrate Muscovy, who continues to happily expand its colonies in Siberia. In 1630 I finish this monumental task as the Commonwealth. And what to my eyes should I see, Spain is building colonies in the Kamchatka Penninsula, having done a fine job colonizing all of North America.

WTH?
 

Path

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To be fair, it works fine for players to. When I play a colonization game I always go to Siberia to cut off Russia (unless I'm in northern Europe and can just fight them to cough up Perm instead). I agree that colonization is too quick as it is, but if this weren't possible Russia would swarm all of Siberia in record time with no opposition. You'd have to nerf Russia's expansion rate east as well before you start tinkering with anything else.

Anyway, by 1630, I'd be past the Urals coming from Kamchatka, if not further, so if they only have a colony or two there there's little to worry about.

X8D6zg1.jpg
 
Last edited:
U

Ultrix Prime

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To be fair, it works fine for players to. When I play a colonization game I always go to Siberia to cut off Russia (unless I'm in northern Europe and can just fight them to cough up Perm instead). I agree that colonization is too quick as it is, but if this weren't possible Russia would swarm all of Siberia in record time with no opposition. You'd have to nerf Russia's expansion rate east as well before you start tinkering with anything else.

If you go for exploration right away and start colonies and then withdraw the colonist to start new ones, you can make it to Kamchatka well before the Spaniards can get there. One key thing is don't worry about filling in colonies around your line toward the East. Focus your active colonists always in pushing. In fact, I've found that you only need 1 until you get to the eastern coastline. Then you need to go both north and south to block the western powers out completely. It didn't seem hard to block them out completely to me anyway. It's just a matter of starting the race for colonization early or not. Also remember that you do need the conquistadors since colonists alone won't disclose connecting lands until many ideas later in the game.

On the other hand, having those last few eastern provinces really boils down to what you want to accomplish overall. Spain or even England or Portugal getting a chunk of the Eastern colonies hasn't seemed like a big deal depending upon my goals (I have only seen Castille/Spain show up in 1.7, not sure why).

One approach is to pick up expansion and also Westernize. The reason I sometimes westernize is that then you can very easily grab up all of Ming as a protectorate very easily. They seem to accept protectorate status around 70-75% warscore with low war enthusiasm. Once you take them out, if you have grabbed up Oirat and colonized a wall to in front of the Spaniards, pretty much they cannot really do anything about it, or so it seems. After this or around this time I grab trade ideas because putting traders into the 2 Ming nodes provided me around +30 gold a month as I recall and growing over time.

I am confident this is a fairly easy strategy because I just finished doing this as Sweden/Scandanavia and having enough gold from trade and production to field a 250k army backed by >500k manpower.

So, as with various other aspects in the game, this sort of issue of Spain coming in from the east is perhaps best handled by early strategy decisions. If, for instance, your goal is to cut a swath to the HRE, vassalize electors and become the Emperor, for instance, expansion to eastern colonies with their low tax rates and values, albeit a lot of manpower, is potentially secondary.

So I feel the key is to decide early on what you want to achieve and this line of thinking may naturally take you to preparing for future challenges you will then face in a more prepared way.
 

Tacticus101

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The real problem is the absurdly quick amount of expansion for all powers. Places in the world that were not colonized until the 18th-19th Century are major metropoli by 1550-1650. The whole rate of colonization needs to slow down.

The problem is that the speed of colonisation varied a great deal depending on the place and time, something that is not adequately represented.

Easiest way to slow colonising would be to make natives more dangerous and add more negative events.
 

StatikShocker

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natives just don't revolt in ai colonies. it is technically just less likely, but it basically never sets them back.

I think they could do more with the climate maluses, like keeping europe out of africa and siberia for much longer. also, make arctic a lot more hellish for settling, but ramp up the bonus for settling land adjacent to controlled land (why is it so small?). This will allow basically only russia/asian nations to colonize siberia until the very late game.
 

SonofWinter

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Whatever it is, by 1630 Spain shouldn't have finished colonizing the Midwest and be moving into Siberia, for that matter, the rest of the world shouldn't be finished in colonizing the world by 1630 either. That's just insane. As for Muscovy's expansion, at least they were connected to their colonies by land. Being connected by sea, should give a significant malus to their expansion. They should NOT be finished in 1630 with the North American Midwest, when they were just starting on the Coast of California in the 1780s.
 

Tacticus101

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Whatever it is, by 1630 Spain shouldn't have finished colonizing the Midwest and be moving into Siberia, for that matter, the rest of the world shouldn't be finished in colonizing the world by 1630 either. That's just insane. As for Muscovy's expansion, at least they were connected to their colonies by land. Being connected by sea, should give a significant malus to their expansion. They should NOT be finished in 1630 with the North American Midwest, when they were just starting on the Coast of California in the 1780s.

I don't think they finish colonising the other area's, the AI just evaluates the provinces it can reach and rates the Siberian provinces (with their likelihood of getting Gold) as higher than all the tropical provinces with high native populations.
 

Deuterium Dawn

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To be fair, it works fine for players to. When I play a colonization game I always go to Siberia to cut off Russia (unless I'm in northern Europe and can just fight them to cough up Perm instead). I agree that colonization is too quick as it is, but if this weren't possible Russia would swarm all of Siberia in record time with no opposition. You'd have to nerf Russia's expansion rate east as well before you start tinkering with anything else.

Anyway, by 1630, I'd be past the Urals coming from Kamchatka, if not further, so if they only have a colony or two there there's little to worry about.

View attachment 114402

The problem with russia isn't colonization of 1 and 2 base tax provinces in Siberia, but the lack of anyone around them who can really challenge them once they get going. The sIberians aren't an effective or logical counterbalance, just an annoyance and eyesore. It would make more sense to buff the hordes and China if you're worried about Russia. The hordes could definitely use it, the problem with China is really just the ai.
 

SonofWinter

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The reality is that there was no other challengers for Russia's colonization efforts and shouldn't be for another 120 years. Spain showing up in Siberia in 1630 and colonizing is STUPID. Anyone who thinks that Alaska should be finished by 1630 is also STUPID.

If all you have to add to this conversation is that the game mechanics allow the Spain player to do it, allow me to restate this. Poor game design isn't by itself an excuse for a bad design decisions. There's a reason why the Colonies in N. America in the South, weren't easily colonized, its because disease and humidity kept everyone but the hardiest people out of the area. It took a long time to Colonize the US for a reason. It was NOT PARADISE.
 

Kazimierz IV

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There should be a Victoria II type system where each province has a life-rating and you need to tech up in order to be able to colonize provinces with low life-ratings.. So that the Midwest, Alaska, and California, as well as inland Africa can only be colonized late game as opposed to the current system where everything is colonized by 1650.
 

Tacticus101

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If all you have to add to this conversation is that the game mechanics allow the Spain player to do it, allow me to restate this. Poor game design isn't by itself an excuse for a bad design decisions. There's a reason why the Colonies in N. America in the South, weren't easily colonized, its because disease and humidity kept everyone but the hardiest people out of the area. It took a long time to Colonize the US for a reason. It was NOT PARADISE.

Trying to develop a mechanic to accurately represent the difficulty in creating colonies whilst at the same time representing how valuable they were would be incredibly complicated and difficult, particularly when you want to maintain playability. The system has its flaws, like Iberian Siberia, but unless you can suggest a way to solve the issue criticisms don't mean much.

There should be a Victoria II type system where each province has a life-rating and you need to tech up in order to be able to colonize provinces with low life-ratings.. So that the Midwest, Alaska, and California, as well as inland Africa can only be colonized late game as opposed to the current system where everything is colonized by 1650.

That is basically a tech tree though, plus it hugely penalises Asian and New world nations.
 

SonofWinter

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Trying to develop a mechanic to accurately represent the difficulty in creating colonies whilst at the same time representing how valuable they were would be incredibly complicated and difficult, particularly when you want to maintain playability. The system has its flaws, like Iberian Siberia, but unless you can suggest a way to solve the issue criticisms don't mean much.
Oh, we've given plenty of advice. NONE of it has been taken. Like taking away Spain's +1 colonist just to start. Removing AI colonization range bonuses. This is a rant because NONE of the advice has been even considered.
 

Tacticus101

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Oh, we've given plenty of advice. NONE of it has been taken. Like taking away Spain's +1 colonist just to start. Removing AI colonization range bonuses. This is a rant because NONE of the advice has been even considered.

Firstly, both are exactly the same thing as the much maligned Aggressive Expansion and Over Extension; arbitrary mechanics to apply a limit on taking provinces and so slow down conquest. Taking a way to colonist or reducing colonial range does nothing to address the root issue, it simply patches over it by making colonisation slightly slower for one particular nation that occasionally colonises out of place. It would also have effects on other nations, since spain gets that colonist to cause it to have a larger colonial empire than everyone else (historically), removing it would require tweaks to everyone else to ensure Spain keeps the spot.

Secondly, your actual complaints in this thread; that Spain colonises Siberia and that certain areas of the world should be more difficult to colonise (for whatever reason). All your "advice" above would do is make Spain colonise Siberia a few years later, nothing else would change, both issues would still exist and cause you all this apparent anger.

Thirdly, there have been changes to colonisation (and other things) based on, at least partly, player feedback. Don't claim that they never listen.


So, rather than typing in capitals and calling the game (and those who disagree) stupid, come up with some good ideas, make a mod to try them out and then, if they work, present them on the forums.
 

SonofWinter

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Actually making colonization slower for overseas provinces would greatly remove this problem. Sending colonists via land into Siberia should be faster than having to build ships and sending them full of people to a region beyond a country's 'known world.' Russia colonizing, going east, was just a matter of walking or riding a horse. You were never all alone on your own because the road home, was just that, a ROAD. Going to the Americas was a one way trip with a no-return clause for those who did it.

So, keep the mechanics in place and the events, just make it so that an overseas colony is at 50% of the growth rate of a colony by land. And then we won't have to have weirdness of South America being fully colonized in the span of 50 years.
 

volseraph

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Actually making colonization slower for overseas provinces would greatly remove this problem. Sending colonists via land into Siberia should be faster than having to build ships and sending them full of people to a region beyond a country's 'known world.' Russia colonizing, going east, was just a matter of walking or riding a horse. You were never all alone on your own because the road home, was just that, a ROAD. Going to the Americas was a one way trip with a no-return clause for those who did it.
Errrr... Until railroads, going by ship was far, far faster than traveling over land. It was almost certainly faster to travel from St Petersburg to Vladivostok by sea than by land until the Trans-Siberian Railway was completed.
 

PeterCorless

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Russia going east was more than just a matter of walking or riding a horse. If you read about their colonization of Siberia, it was also full of genocide of the locals, plus a lot of villages-for-exiles (basically, prisons) for political outcasts.

There were not really roads going to Siberia at first. And why would walking across Siberia really be so easy, considering the temperature in winter?

In other words, there is no reason to give Russia a free pass to Siberia either. We've already seen far too much of Russia taking over China in the game.

Whether overland, or over the sea, all colonization needs to slow down to make it more historical.
 

SonofWinter

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Russia going east was more than just a matter of walking or riding a horse. If you read about their colonization of Siberia, it was also full of genocide of the locals, plus a lot of villages-for-exiles (basically, prisons) for political outcasts.

There were not really roads going to Siberia at first. And why would walking across Siberia really be so easy, considering the temperature in winter?

In other words, there is no reason to give Russia a free pass to Siberia either. We've already seen far too much of Russia taking over China in the game.

Whether overland, or over the sea, all colonization needs to slow down to make it more historical.
I'm cool with that, too. I just hate seeing the entire world be colonized by the middle of the 17th century.