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Radu

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Now that we know there will need to be a minimum of divs needed to properly cover a given province,I want to ask about the opposite. What if there are too many divisions in one spot?

What if the AI garrisons an island with 20+ divs?

Will the units receive a "crowded as hell" combat penalty in addition to the limit of " only X units fighting at a time" that was mentioned in the diaries? Or maybe much higher losses from bombardments?
 

Hansag

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Even strategic bombers aught to be able to inflict some serious damage to stacks like that.
 

Richardson

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I understood that only a given number of divisions can defend a front at a time. When these divisions disengage, fresh divisions from reserves (extra divisions in the same province) have a certain chance of filling their spot, depending on doctrines .
So doctrines would determine if defending a province with more divisions that can deployed to a front at a time is a good idea.
 

unmerged(105989)

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Richardson said:
I understood that only a given number of divisions can defend a front at a time. When these divisions disengage, fresh divisions from reserves (extra divisions in the same province) have a certain chance of filling their spot, depending on doctrines .
So doctrines would determine if defending a province with more divisions that can deployed to a front at a time is a good idea.
yes, but there is only so much physical space in an area. Units crowded together can cause more problems to eachother than to the enemy sometimes. It's one of the reasons that there are overstacking penalties on most of the old board wargames. I would recommend an increasing org penalty for stacking over a certain number, and if you go high enough, a strength penalty. After all, 50+ divisions on Midway, can you imagine where 750,000 guys are going to the latrine??
 
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IMHO there should be a max limit - lets say 50 (+ penalty for growing number above some value)
example:
like u can have 20-25 (with 5-10 in combat - frontage limits) and all above that gives u penalty up to max ~50 units in the province.
 

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Volf said:
IMHO there should be a max limit - lets say 50 (+ penalty for growing number above some value)
example:
like u can have 20-25 (with 5-10 in combat - frontage limits) and all above that gives u penalty up to max ~50 units in the province.

I don't think an absolute number would be neccessary for normal land provinces. But lots of small provinces just could not handle many troops. Like that 3km long island to which map I posted a link to.
 
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In theory u could stack a lot of troops everywhere u want but no one would do that thats why there should be a limit (+ AI is stupid)
+ large penalties for movement speed - roads are full
+ large attrition - logistical nightmare
+ bombing / artillery fire is just a massacre

Max limit could be usefull (for modding purpose maybe) but is not neccessary as long as penalties will do that
 

Bobb4

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Volf said:
In theory u could stack a lot of troops everywhere u want but no one would do that thats why there should be a limit (+ AI is stupid)
+ large penalties for movement speed - roads are full
+ large attrition - logistical nightmare
+ bombing / artillery fire is just a massacre

Max limit could be usefull (for modding purpose maybe) but is not neccessary as long as penalties will do that

As has been made clear only a certain number will fight.
Lets say you have 100 infantry divisions (frontage 1) in a province and your frontage is say ten wide in the province based on terrain and other factors.
Only ten of your units will be able to fight and should they be knocked out only a few (depends on doctrine of your remaining units will be able to join the fight, lets just say five join in and they are kicked back.
That means a full retreat and discorg for not just your 15 units that were actually involved in the fighting but for all 100 divisions.

So should you be allowed to overstack, I say yes. The penalty comes from losing not deploying.
I also thing the more you have the more CAS and other air units should be able to disorganise your forces.
I think the new system will see the end of multiple 100 stack armies anyway as long as the AI can be taught.
 
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langemarckdiv.

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In HOI2 you can asign also troops from adjacent provinces as reserves and they come to fight when their adjacent province is attacked.
With even smaller provinces in HOI3, it's sure that this will be possible too, I even think it will be even more used, because of the increased number of provinces that makes putting a lot of divisions in 1 province impossible.
 

Enzo

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I'm quite sure that the new logistic system will handle the over stacking problem.
Just imagine how you would supply 50 div in Midway ?
Clearly, I prefer a logistic system that prevent you to stack 100 div in a province than an absolute value, whatever it can be.
 

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Yeah large stacks should take much more damage from air units. I always hated it that you could DECIMATE a small group on land units that IRL would be spread out and hard to pin down. Yet attacking large groups of units that would be crowded and disorganized results in nothing but getting your bombers messed up.

I think depending on the province infra, doctrine, etc. it should actually be worse to have more troops in one location than less as opposed to just penalties on the additional troops. Would encourage realistic reserve forces and such.

One thing that's desperately needed to balance everything though is longer combat. Also varying intensity. It shouldn't be just instant full force attack. That could be a big doctrinal difference between countries. Germans maybe extremely forceful quick attack while the Russians have a slow build up with large artillery bombardments.
 

Bullfrog

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I guess we'll have to wait and see what the new logistics system tells us about overstacking. Though I imagine the AI will do no such thing, considering the sheer number of provinces that need to be covered. I am betting the most common stacks will be 1-3 divisions per province. Let's just hope the AI is smart enough to use its forces properly.
 

Hansag

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In theory u could stack a lot of troops everywhere u want but no one would do that thats why there should be a limit (+ AI is stupid)
+ large penalties for movement speed - roads are full
+ large attrition - logistical nightmare
+ bombing / artillery fire is just a massacre

Max limit could be usefull (for modding purpose maybe) but is not neccessary as long as penalties will do that

I agree, although I'm sure you could place millions of soldiers in the same place, but as you said, huge penalties vs. HE weapons etc.

Also movement penalty (this was a big problem in the blitz into France in 1940), which aught to be alleviate somewhat by having military police in the formation so that they can regulate traffic (I'm serious about that one!)
 
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There are provinces strategically so important you have to have them in the game, but so small that it is just physically completely impossible to have more than a certain number of troops in them. Penalties aren't enough in some occasions - Gibraltar, Tarawa, Malta, Midway, Panama C-Z...

No matter what you do you just cannot pile a hundred division to Gibraltar.
 

unmerged(84607)

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If we take Gibraltar as an example, the peninsula itself is 6.8 sq km large. That is the same as 6,800,000 sq m. If every soldier took up 2 sq m (sleeping for instance), you could theoretically (ignoring supplies and operational ability completely) fit 3.4 million men or over 100 divisions in Gibraltar. It would be stupid (and rather scary for the guys who get their 2 sq m right at the top of the rock) - but theoretically possible.

Now I have no problem agreeing that even attempting this would be madness (sortof like stuffing 27 people in a VW Beetle). First, most of them would starve to death because supplies distribution would be impossible. This is covered by the logistics system. Second, Only the line closest to Spain would be able to fight. I consider this a frontage of 1. Once that division is beaten (minutes with enough overstacking penalties), and with no time for anyone to fill the gap, the full unit collapses and all 100 divisions are destroyed.

In game terms, placing 100 Divisions on Gibraltar should be possible. It should just be so incredibly stupid no one would ever do it. Like in reality.
 
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Well I think it would be more realistic to keep it just simply an impossible order to unload that many troops to the province. Just like you can't order 5 divisions to board a battleship, which you theoretically could. Or to swim across the Channel in order to attack. While people have indeed swam over it. Or to paradrop Tiger II's or hide fighter airplanes to London Underground, have submarines pulled on dry ground to be used as AA assets or... You get the idea. When things are possible for stunts/experts or possible on paper but never in reality I think it'd be more realistic to just make it outright impossible than to just "really unwise".
 

Radu

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The impossibility part gets weird when one thinks about involuntarily having a large amount of divs stuck in a small patch of land,such as in the case of large encirclements. Who decides which divisions evaporate?

Just like the EU3 engine does not forbid packing 100,000 men in a forgotten unsettled desert prov but instead lets attrition do its thing, so should be the case in HOI3.

Besides being operationally impossible to make use of all those units and also unsound as bombers would have a juicy target, there is the logistical issue as well.

Depending on the Infrastructure level (of the region or prov), all provinces should have a maximum supportable amount of divs (or max Logistic Weight to increase granularity) with technology as a significant modifier. Beyond that, some form of attrition should start to eat away at huge stacks.
 

mac85

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You could do this through the supply system if there were a maximum amount of supplies that could go into each province dependant on infrastructure (which is what you've just said! Where are my reading glasses?)
 

potski

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There are provinces strategically so important you have to have them in the game, but so small that it is just physically completely impossible to have more than a certain number of troops in them. Penalties aren't enough in some occasions - Gibraltar, Tarawa, Malta, Midway, Panama C-Z...

No matter what you do you just cannot pile a hundred division to Gibraltar.

Gibraltar is only about 7 sq.km, compared to a typical small HOI3 land province, which I estimate to be at least 700 sq.km.

For that typical province on land I'm not convinced by the argument that there should be a max. number of Divs allowed in the province. I think you could place a lot of Divs in a province. Take London with a population in 1939 of around 8 million people. Once the bombing started in late 1940 about 13% of the population evacuated the city, that's about 1 million people who abandoned their homes. So a lot of Divs could occupy the city without any great problem, using those homes, schools, public parks, etc. Certainly 50 Divs (about 600,000 men) seems to be no problem.

I can't see under what circumstances London would be occupied by 50 Divs in the game any way. It would mean stacking the entire UK defence force in one province, and leaving the remainder of the country undefended. Even in HOI2 the AI would attempt to spread it's forces along the frontline (or beaches if not actually invaded). I think we don’t need to worry about creating special rules preventing it.

If you take an example of offensive action, Germany could stack 50 Divs near Cologne ready to attack France through the Ardennes, but again it would leave itself woefully exposed on its flanks, and the frontage rules mean that most of these could not enter combat as they tried to advance down a narrow corridor only one or two provinces wide, where those provinces are hills/forests.

If a human player wants to stack 50 Divs in London or the Ardennes I don't think they should be prevented from doing so. But strategic considerations would tend to prevent such huge stacks from occurring anyway.

The size of some islands (or small territories such as Gibraltar) that must be represented in the game clearly present more of an issue, compared to the typical province. Gibraltar is one of the most densely populated territories in the world, with just over 4,000 people living there per sq.km. However, comprising only about 7 sq.km it has a total population of only 28,000. Clearly even 3 Divs (about 26,000 men) would cause a major logistical challenge.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure how the game mechanics could deal with this. The game engine doesn't know the size of a province, and treats all of them as roughly equivalent. You would have to introduce a new parameter into the model of the world.

To me this seems unnecessary. 9,500 of the 10,000 land provinces might reasonably be abstracted to cover a similar area. You would be changing the game engine for 500 provinces, or perhaps even far less. FE amongst the islands Kasakka mentions is Malta. Malta is actually a group of seven islands, and the total area of them is over 300 sq.km. IMO it doesn't particularly require any special rules to represent its size. You might find in the whole world there are only a very small number of strategically important islands/peninsulars where size really would matter. 10? 20?

Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean that I’m in favour of there being no penalties if someone does try to create unrealistically high concentrations of units in an area. These include:
- Movement penalties
- Bonuses to air attack
- Supply problems