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Yes I believe this must be tested a lot. Lets say Germany moves 30 divisions against Poland and captures it in mid september. If he then goes after the soviets immediately I cant see how russias 43 divisions with an org level of 30 can withstand the attack. Next troops he will get will be in december - 20-30 infantry divisions at most with low org level.

But it all depends on wether Italy can hold the german westfront. I believe they can since the french will have an org level of 10 and attack through very rough terrain. And maybe Italy could also share some troops to the russian campaign as they start out with the largest military power - 65 divisions.


The most likely scenario would be that Germany can capture the North of Russia and overextend himself in the south. Maybe Stalingrad will not fall but that will very much be up to the skill of the players. The Germans surely got the advantage.

I cant see how the russians can counter this. Remember that 10 division must be moved from Vladivostok makin them useless for a month into the campaign. So the russian player must cope with barely 30 division against roughly the same germans strength. And if Germany fails the first attack troops will pour in as it will for the russians in 3 months.

Russias problem here is that he cant depend on the rivers as his forces are to thin. If Germany goes for Moscow, dniepr will be useless and the troops there will see thier fellow comrades fall in the North. That would seal Russias faith. On the other hand if all is brought to defend Moscow - the germans can concentrate all his might their and crush the enemy in one big blow.


The only way I see this is that UK must declare war immediatley as Germany launces Barbarossa and trying to tie up axis forces by invanding Italy and Germanys baltic sea coast.


HoIs problem is that the russians starts out with barely 40 divisions to few. They historically did have more than that but if you just count full strength units that would mean nearly 85 divisions.
In the meantime org level for Germany is to high in 1936. So I think this must be adjusted before we can talk about how to prevent Russia from declaring war.
 

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Just finished a MP as Germany.

Other players were Italy, Russia, UK, US and France.

In 1941 france was puppeted and the UK had his forces bound up in Africa. The US player did DOW in may 1941.

The Russian defence consisted of level one forts in every area, 120 divisions av AT-INF with a decent org at about 80 and very upgraded AT-capability.

My attack force consisted of about 110 divs, of these were 40 divs panzer III with 70mm guns and 20 divs of mech and the rest standard inf.

The printed values on the russian AT-INF had equal or higher Hard Attack compared to my panzers, and of course a high defence value. Didn't matter much. My panzers, when outnumbering the defenders about 2:1 just cut through. The forts didn't make much of a difference either. Even the level 5 forts in the three cities couldn't make the wehrmacht stop for long.

As I see it it is almost impossible for the russian player to stop an armoured attack from germany once the germans have cleared it's back.

Of course the allied players did open a second front, actually several times during the two months it took to capture the three cities, but I had a 50 div garrison in the west wall, and their attempts were repulsed.

How should russia defend if this race for anti-tank capability didn't work? What else could they possibly do? Build more tanks? Or what?
 

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Originally posted by Ztein

How should russia defend if this race for anti-tank capability didn't work? What else could they possibly do? Build more tanks? Or what?


Well this discussion is pretty useless unless Russia gets the historically right OOB. Im very UPSET that Paradox rather change OOB then their combat-system. The stavka wasted a lot of men during Barbarossa, 1st Kharkov offensive, operation Mars but if a player does that he is toast. There are unfortunately no marginals if you play Russia which you need because the org levels are so low. Yes you should be able to send 20 divisions to the slaughter in an attempt to halt the axis advance.

So the answer to your question is - No I dont see Russia able to do much. And even if they could the game playes it out wrong.

Another thing is the manpower-levels for russia. If the russian player build his historical 360 divisions on the eastfront to september 1941 he will run out off manpower. Thats a disgrace. Either give russia the correct number of divisions(modified ofcourse to get full-strength divisions) and heavily modify the manpower settings.


I see HoI not only as a game but also as a lesson in history. US media form us to think that west singlehandedly won ww2. In Medal of honor you help the russians win the battle for Berlin(dont matter that there was no chance in hell the americans would be allowed to enter it) and we see how Tom Hanks knockin out Tiger I:s in Savin private Ryan. But come on; lets play it right - I want the game to give newcomers to ww2 a feel of what it was really about. The Sovietunion crushed Nazi-germany(yep they did and I hate communism btw) and the share might of the eastern front must be shown in the game. We must have an end to 100-150 divisions clashing in the 1936 scenario when infact there were 200-400 division battling it out IRL.

Losses during ww2;

Sovietunion - 25 million
Germany - 6.25 million
USA - 366 k

US Losses D-day;
10 000

USSR losses Stalingrad;
1,25 Million

USSR losses Berlin;
1 Million
 
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unmerged(8463)

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I dont believe Germany can take out USSR in the beginning of 1936 when theres skillfull USSR player. Not until i see it atleast, maybe some test games on the subject really would be good to have :). Germany starts out with 40 divs of which 3 are armored, for Russia the same number is 43 with 5 armored divisions. Of course the higher org value of German units makes a big difference but i believe Belgia, Poland, France and +5 forts of Russian cities are enough to balance this out. For a quick blow Germany has 3 months to take out Russia before its 40+ inf divs come to the field. These are all winter months that slow down Germany more.


Ztein, with that late war entry USSR player should possess effective tank army as well. It also seems like your enemy didnt use enough mobile reserves so you could take his province one by one.

Kuniworth, i think the Russian OOB is quite allright as it is. Remember those HoI divisions are equal in strenth when historical USSR divisions were smaller formations in manpower when compared to their German counterparts. Russia can still outnumber Germany nicely.
 

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Originally posted by Jonicro

Kuniworth, i think the Russian OOB is quite allright as it is. Remember those HoI divisions are equal in strenth when historical USSR divisions were smaller formations in manpower when compared to their German counterparts. Russia can still outnumber Germany nicely.


No the stats are not correct at all. Even counting with full strength divisions the russians should get 80-85 divisions. I dont believe Paradox to be satisfied with this either. This is one of oIs major problem and I will not give up whining about it until they change it.
 

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Dec 15, 2002
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Further, Isebrand

Your points are just as valid as mine were to you. It would take some very good strategy for the Russian player to survive but it could be done.

In my expirence the allies did DOW me, but I puppeted Belgium early so I had an army right there ready to take france, the rest of my army went through poland.

The point here is that even if the allies declare war, under my counterstrategy of a russian DOW your in belgium and it takes no time to get to france. I didnt have to protect the Magniot Line I had an italian player covering it for me, a luxury that afforded me a massive assault on Russia. I concede without the Italian player Germany would be over run by french but if you can hold at Maignot and roll into Paris with minimal loses my strategy can hold.

I am around and looking to test "Scenarios" within a MP environment.

Drop me a line

odin_of_valhalla@hotmial.com

ICQ= 70654097
 

unmerged(3658)

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Originally posted by Kuniworth
Well this discussion is pretty useless unless Russia gets the historically right OOB.

I don't think the discussion is irrelevant without a historically correct OOB. The thing is that the forces used in our game (mainly russian INF with AT) should be able to stop tanks, or at least slow them down, take out some organisation or hinder them in any way. This time it didn't.

It is true that they should have benfited from some mobile strike force that could have punched some holes in the german lines, but the setup with lots of forts did mean that there is no chance of being left out of supply so cutting of large pockets is of no idea, hence the russian player didn't think he would need any mobile punching power.

Did anyone play a MP with a soviet player that didn't DOW in 1936 and came out well against the german wehrmacht after barbarossa?

Btw: In a way I think that the russian '36 DOW may be considered a game exploit far worse than any other I've seen so far. It really tips the scale enormously. There is no downside to it really. Besides all the factors mentioned it also means that any minors attacked by germany before the war starts against france and UK becomes part of the comintern.
If Germany is going to fight the russians thay have to go through poland and that is a few divisions that in '36 will help the red army very well. But I guess that this discussion can go to another thread?
 

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Agreed

It is a major exploit, but you cant not allow Russia to declare war. That just takes away from thier right as a nation in MP.

You hope that the Russian player wont use the exploit, and there is a very simple counter to it should they choose to go that way.

Japan & Italy

If your Germany you should bring Japan into the Axis ASAP to counterbalance this threat of early DOW. Russia cant survive on two fronts they have no chance, its just a sad reality of playing an early scenario that as the German player you have to anticipate and deal with. It requires a lot of skill to play Germany in MP in the 36 scenario although your army is supperior in quality the US and Russia hold an enormous advantge with thier particular situations.

As the player of germany you have to use diplomacy as much as possible to secure your position and Russia early. If Russia does DOW you early you have to sacrafice a western Europe campaign and bring all possible pressure to bare on Russia. I have a strategy for this however it entails having the Axis as constitued in 1941, come together in 36, Italy plays a crucial role as well as Japan.

Not historically acurate, but the only way to counter this advantage of Russia.

On a side, I had one MP game (CTD so it was short) where the human russian player DOW on the allies, and went for UK's holdings in the middle east and India. That could have been one hell of a game !

Odin
 
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@Odin1970: I contact you once I'm back (around 6th of Januar).


I think DOWing Germany in '36 as Russia is only an exploit if Allies are played by AI. The AI should under these circumstances ally with the Axies and crush the Sovjets, as it would (most likely) have happened if the Sovjet Union would have attacked Germany in '36.

But if Allies are human controlled, IMHO everything should be allowed in diplomacy. After all, victory conditions are calculated separately for Axies, Allies and Comintern. And if the Allies stand back and look or even help Russia to crush Germany that early - well, they shouldn't be surprised if they are only second in victory pointes behind the Comintern.
 

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Yon Dan
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I thought about it

You know I dont think "Exploit" is the right term. Its something that is a possibilty and something as any player in the game you have to deal with. Much like the USA advantage of Tech research, lets face it having nukes in 43 is a reality in HOI, and an advantage.

You have to deal with it, you can always play the 39 scenario if you feel exploited, me I enjoy the challenge as a German player. Frankly Isebrand, the allies wont DOW on russia if they are controlled by the AI, I am not guru, but have put in my time in this game and have never seen it, under many scenarios.

Odin
 

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I also dont really see it as an exploit since it also has many severe penalties to USSR player, like some people here have mentioned. Just because Allies dont act in the way they probably would have acted in real situation doesnt make it a one, HoI is full of those situations. Also since higher war entry already reduces the consumer goods demand quite dramaticaly the effect of DOW isnt all that magnificant.
 
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Good that people agree it is not am exploit. Would be a shame to see my favorite strategy going down the drainpipe. :)

The drawback of this strategy could be that Germany basically is forced into an early war. My one game as Germany I used the three years of peace to trade in a reserve of 50.000 oil. I think that wouldn't be possible if at war.
 

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Yon Dan
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Agreed

It definately isnt possible to trade that kind of surplus as Germany in DOW setting by Russia. Thats why its a must to puppet Belgium in this scenario. Thier holdings and supplies alone will keep Germany fat, with out this your really at a disadvantage.

If you dont puppet Belgium and you are DOW by Russia the only viable solution I can think of is to attack through Romania and grab those oil fields in the process. That REALLY over extends your position as the German Player, but remember Russia still has to come to you, you can still produce quality units for a defensive action and commit a smaller force to romania.

In addition you HAVE to use Paratroopers. Some say its cheesy or an exploit, but like the Russian DOW you have the option, land way behind thier main lines and just gobble up as many open provinces as you can. IT will give you more time to organzie defenses and try and get Japan into the mix.

In the end, if you dont Attack Russia quick and use the Holding defense you will loose. Russia just has such a manpower advantage its crazy, and you better hope like hell that Japan decides that they dont care for Russia either.

I cant emphasis enough the importance of bringing pressure to bare on Russia as fast as possible in a DOW by them, however you do it bring the war to Russian soil as fast as possible, they have so much land they cant defend all points and will have to commit troops to defense. The Paratroopers is a nice way to counter this, the simplest really as there are no guarantee's that Japan will come on board.
 

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Making Belgium your puppet really is a good way to get enough rubber to keep your economy running. With human UK it doesnt really work though since he will most likely invade Belgian Kongo pretty quick. Same happens quite often with AI UK too. In this case you need to get the Ploesti oil no matter what.

Using paratroopers to grab USSR behind the front provinces really could work, though it takes over a year to get paratroopers in 1936 start. Also wont those get run down by single mechanized or armored division very fast?
 

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Yon Dan
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Yes & Yes

Yes UK will most likely come after the German player once Belgium is puppeted. Its been my expirence with an AI ALlies that Belgium is there number one diplomatic priority, maybe for this reason.

What the puppeted belgium gives you though is a huge influx of resources now, you get a huge bump up in supplies that even if the UK took belgium back it would still be the best grab of resources for the least amount of expense. However I must say over running belgium isnt always easy I have had them twice send me back to Berlin.

Yes it takes a while to build paratroopers, thats why you have to hold your position as long as possible, once their built drop them into russia. Yes a russian armored division can overrun them easily, thats why you have to keep them moving and taking undefended provinces. It isnt full proof but it will make the russian player address the issue, and that is one way to tip the strategic advantage back to you as Germany. Now he has to deal with you on your terms not his, in that one small aspect. The Paratroopers would be expendable, but march them up and down and right and left, no pattern, no goals, just hit and runs through the country side. Then when they address it look for a good point and attack from the German Motherland, in effect your creating the two front war that Japan could provide you with if they were in but arent.

Odin