Their build time and cost are alredy reduced by thier land doctrines. Additionally, GPW event reduces both once again.
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Their build time and cost are alredy reduced by thier land doctrines. Additionally, GPW event reduces both once again.
One solution would be more traditional approach: when Soviets lose an important city (Smolensk, Kiova, Minsk, Kharkov, etc.) an event would award them with some free units. Something like "Desperate measures".
Ok, I played another German game yesterday and agreed that Soviets are overpowered. I destroyed around 120 divisions until winter and reached Maikop oilfields, but i am currently being hard-pressed from everwhere because Soviets are extremely good at winter.I am not really bothered by excessive free units. My objections are :
- Wartime IC bonus of 60 is too much. This only applies against Human Germany. If Germany is AI controlled, that bonus is 25 percent. With 60 percent bonus, Soviets have near 600 total IC.
- Morale boost of 20 percent and movement-attack-defense bonuses in all terrain types are too much and IMO doesn't fit into concept. As extremely cheap units somewhat represent extensive Soviet mobilization of the time, those terrain-morale bonuses are irrelevant especially as they are given in the first day of the war. This seems to remove German superiority in quality. So, as someone posted earlier in this thread, after those morale and terrain modifiers, single Soviet division becomes almost equal to single German division which is obviously end of German player.
- Wartime IC bonus of 60 is too much. This only applies against Human Germany. If Germany is AI controlled, that bonus is 25 percent. With 60 percent bonus, Soviets have near 600 total IC.
- Morale boost of 20 percent and movement-attack-defense bonuses in all terrain types are too much and IMO doesn't fit into concept. As extremely cheap units somewhat represent extensive Soviet mobilization of the time, those terrain-morale bonuses are irrelevant especially as they are given in the first day of the war. This seems to remove German superiority in quality. So, as someone posted earlier in this thread, after those morale and terrain modifiers, single Soviet division becomes almost equal to single German division which is obviously end of German player.
I agree that without all this bonuses, irrelevant as you said, free units would be less a problem.
But on the other hand, unlimited free units can give after few years 1000 or 2000 soviets divisions, which ruins all late game if USSR is not crushed by Germany.
But on the other hand, unlimited free units can give after few years 1000 or 2000 soviets divisions, which ruins all late game if USSR is not crushed by Germany.
What I have noticed in my Germany games is that once I encircle 50%+ of Soviet armies in the first month (historical), the Soviets are done for. From that point on, even if I don't encircle dozens of Soviet divisions (unhistorical), I can just push the front to the Volga by year's end.
I don't rush Moscow, but I do capture it when my front reaches it. Safe for June '41, my northern and central fronts advance at the pace of 1936 infantry. I reach Moscow by October at the latest, and Leningrad and Stalingrad are captured by November at the latest, with Baku by January/February (if SOV switches capital to Sevastopol). I don't think that pace is unusual. I even think that it's a bit slower than average.
What does this tell me? The USSR, the biggest challenge for the Germany player is a pushover as-is. If you can't defeat the Soviets by Nov/Dec 1941, you shouldn't *expect* to ever defeat them, and free units are necessary to show that because of AI limits. I bet you a Panzer division that many of the German General Staff first feared the war may be lost when the Soviets attacked in December 1941.
The one thing that concerns me is whether the Soviets really can end up with 1000+ divisions on the front. I think that free unit spam should stop when Soviets have 600 divisions (assuming 1936 start, 700 if 1933 start). Historically plausible, and still allows the player a good chance at victory if they fail to win in 1941.
Also, regarding bonuses:
There should be movement bonuses, but those should come after 1941, Also, IMHO, the Lend-Lease event should be expanded and it should allow some Soviet divisions to be converted Inf->Mot. As it presently stands, the 50 TC is neither much, nor historical. Where are the 400,000 jeeps and trucks the Allies sent the Soviets?
I agree that the IC bonus is a tad too much. 40% maybe?
I don't rush Moscow, but I do capture it when my front reaches it. Safe for June '41, my northern and central fronts advance at the pace of 1936 infantry. I reach Moscow by October at the latest, and Leningrad and Stalingrad are captured by November at the latest, with Baku by January/February (if SOV switches capital to Sevastopol). I don't think that pace is unusual. I even think that it's a bit slower than average.
What does this tell me? The USSR, the biggest challenge for the Germany player is a pushover as-is. If you can't defeat the Soviets by Nov/Dec 1941, you shouldn't *expect* to ever defeat them, and free units are necessary to show that because of AI limits. I bet you a Panzer division that many of the German General Staff first feared the war may be lost when the Soviets attacked in December 1941.
The one thing that concerns me is whether the Soviets really can end up with 1000+ divisions on the front. I think that free unit spam should stop when Soviets have 600 divisions (assuming 1936 start, 700 if 1933 start). Historically plausible, and still allows the player a good chance at victory if they fail to win in 1941.
Also, regarding bonuses:
There should be movement bonuses, but those should come after 1941, Also, IMHO, the Lend-Lease event should be expanded and it should allow some Soviet divisions to be converted Inf->Mot. As it presently stands, the 50 TC is neither much, nor historical. Where are the 400,000 jeeps and trucks the Allies sent the Soviets?
I agree that the IC bonus is a tad too much. 40% maybe?
I think the best way to limit the total number of div is manpower.
The total production queue in GPW event is around 700 divisions. If more than 1000 div are produced then maybe the pb is with the AI extending the serials or does the AI just add new serials with the normal cost ? Does anyone has tried to reduce the serial length in the event ?
The total production queue in GPW event is around 700 divisions. If more than 1000 div are produced then maybe the pb is with the AI extending the serials or does the AI just add new serials with the normal cost ? Does anyone has tried to reduce the serial length in the event ?
You must all understand, that the reason the soviets were turned into an OP country, was because, quite simply put, back in all the other iterations of the HOI2 engine, from vanilla HOI2 to DH, the soviet union was a pushover for germany. And in the old forums, and everywhere else, everyone complained about how the soviets were so easy, so killable, etc, etc. Back then, an average player could spam 1 unit type, and swamp the russians easily.
DH came up with the answer of 'fine, you bastards, we will give you a challenge' and basically gave the soviet AI the equivalent of horse steroids, what with the likes of 0.1 cost units, faster building and IC bonuses and an incredibly agressive AI. The result comes off as the opposite now, that the soviets are too OP. In truth, there can never be that perfect balance that people will be looking for. As humans, we have the chance to exploit the game engine to our benefit every single time, so as to never quite lose. First time players that are learning will lose many many times to the SOV's, until they understand just how the game works, and then they will begin the painstakingly long process of becoming Eastern Front vets. The result of this is that players will not try to exploit the engine anymore, and instead give themselves heavy handicaps, rather than maluses. Me, for example, i have the no-rushing-moscow rule, or the no-front-encirclement rule, as well as building all kinds of units rule, rather than just the necessary ones.
It all comes down to the fact that each player will have to find his or her own balance of challenge for the game.
DH came up with the answer of 'fine, you bastards, we will give you a challenge' and basically gave the soviet AI the equivalent of horse steroids, what with the likes of 0.1 cost units, faster building and IC bonuses and an incredibly agressive AI. The result comes off as the opposite now, that the soviets are too OP. In truth, there can never be that perfect balance that people will be looking for. As humans, we have the chance to exploit the game engine to our benefit every single time, so as to never quite lose. First time players that are learning will lose many many times to the SOV's, until they understand just how the game works, and then they will begin the painstakingly long process of becoming Eastern Front vets. The result of this is that players will not try to exploit the engine anymore, and instead give themselves heavy handicaps, rather than maluses. Me, for example, i have the no-rushing-moscow rule, or the no-front-encirclement rule, as well as building all kinds of units rule, rather than just the necessary ones.
It all comes down to the fact that each player will have to find his or her own balance of challenge for the game.
Eugenioso is right, the USSR was too easy for Germany to crush in older versions.
Also, it makes historic sense for USSR to be a colossus in 1945.
Also, it makes historic sense for USSR to be a colossus in 1945.
You can still do that, though. In fact, it's the only way I'm able to beat them. If I start building tank, motorized or aircrafts, then I just don't have enough infantry, and they beat me easily.
I don't have problems with tons of free units. The problem is that free units with terrain-morale bonuses just at the beginning of barbarossa makes it so hard. Ok, give them tons of units for free to make it more challenging and to represent huge Soviet mobilization, but don't give them terrain-morale bonuses. Or at least give those extra bonuses when they are at the verge of collapsing, not from the very beginning.
I agree. Rather more free units with less bonuses. Crushing huge stacks of divisions month after month is much more rewarding than fighting a horde of elite units. It makes player feel more masculine.
The problem is that Soviets are still quite easy to crush if you play gamey and rush to Moscow, but are impossible after first Russian winter. I would give them more units (and not building queues) after 2 or 3 months of invasion, and less bonuses after. And not brand new divisions. Or not with artillery. Well, something that makes them less overpowered.
So far, nobody could explain to me how he survived to russian winter and win after. I made a lot of times the experiment, and even if I can stop the first russian onslaught, the next summer I am quite unable to regain initiative (which is not historical, as the Germans were able to attack again in 1942 after their fail to take Moscow). An 6-Panzer amy led by Guderian or Rommel is beaten for example by 10 russians divisions, some of them militia. And I play normal. those who want crazy difficulty have still hard or very hard.
I agree that some bonuses have to be given to USSR, in order to make a real challenge. But now, it is like "win before winter or die".
So far, nobody could explain to me how he survived to russian winter and win after. I made a lot of times the experiment, and even if I can stop the first russian onslaught, the next summer I am quite unable to regain initiative (which is not historical, as the Germans were able to attack again in 1942 after their fail to take Moscow). An 6-Panzer amy led by Guderian or Rommel is beaten for example by 10 russians divisions, some of them militia. And I play normal. those who want crazy difficulty have still hard or very hard.
I agree that some bonuses have to be given to USSR, in order to make a real challenge. But now, it is like "win before winter or die".
I give them the blueprints for special equipement instead, add offensive and trickster traits plus intel in land doctrines to simulate maskirovka and offensive as the soviet doctrine. I think it can still be a real challenge in 42 and later
The reason it is so hard to balance USSR in game is that the human player (as Germany) usually doesn't make the same idiot decisions as Hitler.
1941 - "Hmm.... Moscow is lightly defended. Let's attack Ukraine!"
1942 - "Hmm... we still have enough striking power to take Moscow. Let's attack the Caucuses!"
1943 - "Hmm... we are well and truly screwed now. Let's attack Kursk!"
etc.
1941 - "Hmm.... Moscow is lightly defended. Let's attack Ukraine!"
1942 - "Hmm... we still have enough striking power to take Moscow. Let's attack the Caucuses!"
1943 - "Hmm... we are well and truly screwed now. Let's attack Kursk!"
etc.
I've beaten USSR after winter by focusing on killing their IC and letting their units run out of supply. Lots of bombardment, missiles, etc.
With insight maybe but one could also say :
1941 - "Hmm... If we attack Moscow, the strong soviet armies around Kiev could just march north and cut the whole AG Center"
1942 - "Hmm... The soviet keep on fighting only because they still have oil and we need it, let's take it they will surrender"
1943 - "Hmm... we must shorten our front, encircle and destroy as many soviet armies as we can before they counter-attack. Let's attack Kursk, our heavy tanks and engineers will break thoses forts and their moral"