Soviet Union possibly be op?

[Stug_Life]

Ok so i was just looking at the pictures that steam has of hearts of iron 4 and noticed a picture through the eyes of the Soviet Union. There conscription with volunteers only had a manpower of over 12 million people. Now i know that this would be somewhat accurate, but dosent this for games mechanic wise make them incredibly op? How could the third reich stand against an army with that many men? Do the Soviet Union has negative affects that keep its soldiers from being as strong as that of the German Reich soldier?

 

[Xoerpond]

It is like it was in real life. USSR can be defeated with a quick sweep (But it is bloody hard) so that it can't bring up those 12 million men. Third Reich can have some advantages in doctrines and equipment for example that give them the cutting edge. If the Reich was to fight an attrition war, say hello to the infinite reserve of men in the USSR. As USSR is a colossal nation, it also has to have a LOT of troops, therefore a lot of equipment. USSR might not always have the best equipment available because of the sheer number of troops that have to be upgraded.

 

[Marfach]

Ok so i was just looking at the pictures that steam has of hearts of iron 4 and noticed a picture through the eyes of the Soviet Union. There conscription with volunteers only had a manpower of over 12 million people. Now i know that this would be somewhat accurate, but dosent this for games mechanic wise make them incredibly op? How could the third reich stand against an army with that many men? Do the Soviet Union has negative affects that keep its soldiers from being as strong as that of the German Reich soldier?

In previous HoI games SOV still had pretty much limitless manpower. The issues will be providing the equipment and training. In HoI3 the Soviets were pretty behind Germany and the UK in technology and had a serious shortage of skilled generals.
I will admit though, with the simplified technology tree and lack of OOB it might be difficult to find the right medium to put Germany and the Soviet Union on either level or historical terms and it will be interesting to see how the devs went about balancing this.

 

[Number 7]

your only real hope is to make encirclements to take divisions off the field for good (tanks and veterans can't be replaced as quickly) and use that time to drive hard towards the VPs to make them surrender.

a grinding war of attrition will just (shockingly) result in defeat

 

[Yellowdeath]

Troops with no training will be eaten by troops with basic training. Also Manpower is only one part of a unit, the rest is equipment and officers. Wtich they man be running low of if Germany happens to encircle their troops like in real life.

 

[Nicolas I]

...There conscription with volunteers only had a manpower of over 12 million people. Now i know that this would be somewhat accurate, but dosent this for games mechanic wise make them incredibly op?...

As conscription laws control what percentage of the population you can recruit, the adequate number of the population is very important in that calculation.

I have read many times USSR statistics were manipulated for propaganda reasons. Russia had a drastic population drop when USSR ended and more accurate numbers were available.

I wonder how much USSR population numbers were accurate (or not) in 1936-1945 and if Paradox considered that in their calculation ?

Sure once mobilized USSR had a big or should I say enormous advantage, but not unlimited.

...12 million people. Now i know that this would be somewhat accurate...

The numbers on Wikipedia for men on the Eastern Front are rather: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)

AXIS:

1941 3,767,000 troops
1943 3,933,000 troops
1945 1,960,000 troops

USSR:

1941 2,680,000 troops
1943 6,724,000 troops
1945 6,410,000 troops


EDIT: The in-game calculation question was somewhat solved (see post #15), thanks to Chukada and Opanasc.

EDIT 2: For those who disagreed, Soviet Union population was not 600 millions people in 1936, as 2% recruitment giving 12 millions would have suggested.

The answer was that the calculation was 2% + 5% (soviet doctrine modifier)= 7% recruitment, with 7% of 162 millions giving 11,3 millions. Which is about accurate, with a small buff to USSR.

 

[Art1985]

I think we as Germany will be able to cripple this soviet manpower when we capture soviet territory, like in stream with Poland when Germans occupied polish territories manpower pull became smaller.
Sorry for my poor English, hope it's understandable what I wanted to say.

 

[TheDerpyBeagle]

Yes, Soviet manpower should decrease, but hopefully there is a good partisan system in place so that you can't just keep all of your troops at the front and you have to reserve some divisions for anti-partisan duty. They were a big threat in Nazi-occupied USSR to supply lines/railways in particular.

 

[Opanashc]

I have read many times USSR statistics were manipulated for propaganda reasons. Russia had a drastic population drop when USSR ended and more accurate numbers were available.

In 1936, census showed USSR to have a population of ~162 million. Higher ups figured it was wrong, because they expected the number to be around 168 million, and the people in charge of the census were arrested. New census in 1938 gave numbers they agreed with. In 1939-40, SU expanded its borders over territory with ~22-23 million people. Thus, on the eve of Barbarossa, SU population was approximately 192 million. Over the course of the war, SU officially had 34.7 million men go through its armed forces.
In 1989, SU had ~290 million citizens. Of them, just under half lived in different republics, rest in Russia.

 

[Nicolas I]

...Thus, on the eve of Barbarossa, SU population was approximately 192 million. Over the course of the war, SU officially had 34.7 million men go through its armed forces...

If 192 millions is accurate, then with volunteer only conscription law (2% recruitable population), the available manpower should be 3,8 millions. The OP said he saw 12 millions. He may be wrong, I hope he is wrong.

With 192 millions, the closer to 34,7 millions (in game) would be 38,4 millions with service by requirement (20% recruitable population).

That may be quite accurate if we take into account the german occupied parts of USSR where manpower is no more available.

PS I hope we agree, I like it when you provide good information even though we often disagree over politics.

 

[Wiggel]

I trust Paradox to balance them out and/or give them some side-effects for having such a recruit-able population

 

[Number 7]

I trust Paradox to balance them out and/or give them some side-effects for having such a recruit-able population

you get some big industry penalties if you are recruiting so much population. Which is double as bad as SOV when you will lose a lot of land to germany before you can turn the tide. But realistically the USSR is meant to be one hell of a mountain for the wehrmacht to try to climb, odds were stacked in SOV's favour historically and it should be that way in game too.

 

[Opanashc]

If 192 millions is accurate, then with volunteer only conscription law (2% recruitable population), the available manpower should be 3,8 millions. The OP said he saw 12 millions. He may be wrong, I hope he is wrong.
With 192 millions, the closer to 34,7 millions (in game) would be 38,4 millions with service by requirement (20% recruitable population).
That may be quite accurate if we take into account the german occupied parts of USSR where manpower is no more available.
PS I hope we agree, I like it when you provide good information even though we often disagree over politics.

I just stated the facts from real life.
Anyway, 12.96 million (picture of USSR I saw dated 1 Jan 1936) is 8% of 162 million. I don't watch WWW because I think they are too boring, but does any conscription law match it?

 

[Chukada]

soviet doctrine +5% recruitable population, plus soviets probably get more recruitable pop percente from national focus.

 

[Nicolas I]

I just stated the facts from real life.
Anyway, 12.96 million (picture of USSR I saw dated 1 Jan 1936) is 8% of 162 million. I don't watch WWW because I think they are too boring, but does any conscription law match it?

soviet doctrine +5% recruitable population, plus soviets probably get more recruitable pop percente from national focus.

Thanks Chukada, if soviet doctrine gives a +5%, then it would somewhat match volunteer only 2%+5% = 7%, with 7% of 162 millions giving 11,3 millions.

Maybe USSR manpower is just a bit buffed for game purposes but nothing unrealistic. I'm reassured.

Extensive conscription is 10%, but you must be at war + other prerequisites.

 

[tom_jones]

How could the third reich stand against an army with that many men?

The question they should've asked themselves well before 1941.

(in all fairness, manpower alone isn't everything; but then as the counterpoint, sometimes quantity has a quality all of its own, indeed)

 

[MarcoRossolini]

Ok so i was just looking at the pictures that steam has of hearts of iron 4 and noticed a picture through the eyes of the Soviet Union. There conscription with volunteers only had a manpower of over 12 million people. Now i know that this would be somewhat accurate, but dosent this for games mechanic wise make them incredibly op? How could the third reich stand against an army with that many men? Do the Soviet Union has negative affects that keep its soldiers from being as strong as that of the German Reich soldier?

I find your use of the term German Reich soldier etc rather sinister...

Anyone who's played HoI3 will know how hamstrung the USSR can be in the beginning with the purges killing off most of your officers and you being extremely behind in doctrines. Plus we saw in one of the WWWs how Germany's focusses allows it to have a massive burst of speed in its doctrines.

Plus let's look at it historically. The German army of 1941 was the best it ever would be. It did an amazing job (more or less) and still lost. I doubt any German player could match it against a competent human or AI simply because of the near epic unreadiness of the Red Army. Sheer hindsight would have the Soviet player prepared, whatever maluses were in effect.

 

[Adonnus]

you get some big industry penalties if you are recruiting so much population. Which is double as bad as SOV when you will lose a lot of land to germany before you can turn the tide. But realistically the USSR is meant to be one hell of a mountain for the wehrmacht to try to climb, odds were stacked in SOV's favour historically and it should be that way in game too.

One of the reasons the Soviet Army was so screwed up in 1941 besides the officer purge was actually the fact that it had been expanding so rapidly without good officers to fill the ranks or decent organisation. So that, a penalty on rapid expansion, is an obvious in game way of hamstringing the Soviet player so they can't just roll over Europe immediately.

 

[Nicolas I]

@MarcoRossolini, @Adonnus : I see double, who's the real Chuikov ?

 

[MarcoRossolini]

@Adonnus! It's on!