I don't see why they couldn't have the Soviet Union declare war and invade two weeks after Germany and not have war declared on them by the allies. It did happen and was an important event.
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Soviet Union AI will it attack Poland with Germany?
- Thread starter Rugsejis
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Mechanically, the game could just have Poland declare a limited war on the USSR. Hardly any new code required.
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This was in the HPP mod for HOL3, The allies (UK) would then get the option to go to war with the Soviets or not over the invasion.
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A limited war was a feature of HOI3 which only applied to DoWs by the Axis. Basically so that Japan could go to war with China without involving Germany, and Germany can invade France before Italy joins. The Axis countries could choose to call in their allies, or fight on their own. Limited wars didn't apply to the Allies, any attack on one of them automatically brought them all in.
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Yes, that's what happened in HOI3. Mechanically, you could easily implement something like this to simulate a Soviet-Polish war in HOI4 as the faction-requirements can simply be altered.
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I support it, even though it would make one of my favourite countries to play as pretty much unplayable (at least if you want to do something more than getting occupied since 1939 or join Axis/Comintern instead).
It was a major event and I don't like how it was handled by the HoI games so far.
It was a major event and I don't like how it was handled by the HoI games so far.
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Do you think ‘forcing’ Poles who had just refused the German demands to cede another part of their country to the 2nd assailant was probable? Not to mention they decided to fight and lose but to keep their dignity and honour with a prospect to seek for revenge and recovery of the country eventually, whne both aggressors are defeated. There is no logic at all, Poles would have never given up that soil without at least pretending to oppose.
Getting back to the game: Both Germany and USSR should attack Poland but UK and France would withdraw from any further steps against the Soviet Union. I'm prety sure there is a way to implement Soviet attack without allies' response. There is no question about the fact Soviet Union attacked Poland together with Germany and that should happen in the game too (at least historically focused). Btw, Poland had had an anti-Soviet defence pact with Romania but Polish authorities decided to release Romania from liability to go for war with USSR, viewing it pointless.
I'm afraid there is another reason the devs had decided not to implement the Soviet strike: many players are looking forward to play as Poland so if both Germany and the USSR strikes Poland in 1939 (as they should!) there is no possibility for Polish player to win the war. Doesn't matter how meticulously the player had been prepared for the war, the lose is inherently granted.
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Stalin waited until Poland was virtually defeated, then claimed to be responding to the collapse of the Polish government, before they crossed the border.
The division of Poland takes place in the game when Poland capitulates to Germany, which is not far from real-life. They had an agreement in the M-R Pact to divide Poland, but then entered into a new agreement on 28 September 1939 (the so-called Second M-R Pact) which set out the exact borders between them, giving Germany more of Poland and putting most of Lithuania into the Soviet sphere of influence. A few days later on the 8th October 1939, formal annexations took place. And that formally ended the war. But large-scale combat virtually ended even in the west when Poland lost the Battle of the Bzura, which took place 9-19 September 1939. The Poland plan was then to retreat to the land bridge connecting Poland to Romania, where they hoped to defend for a few months, until the Allies could begin a campaign in the West. That became impossible as Soviet troops crossed the border.
This was the disposition of forces on 31st August 1939:
There were no Polish forces of any note in the whole of the west of the country, other than a small force of elite border guards in Wilno, which the government was concerned would be attacked by Lithuania. Their positions were determined in Plan Zachód (Plan West) drawn up in the late 1930s. The plan assumed the Soviet Union would be neutral, as a Nazi-Communist alliance seemed unlikely. In fact, no-one could really believe it had happened in late August 1939, given the positions of their leaders in the years before.
Gameplay > History
Otherwise, you have Soviet forces engaged in full scale combat with Polish forces, which never happened, you have the Allied guarantee and, even if that was sorted out in the game, the Poland AI can call in their allies into the war against the Soviet Union. That probably also sends WT off the scale, and may bring US in. You immediately have all out war, and you always have it with Germany and the Soviet Union fighting together. Germany never fights a two front war.
No-one doubts that the Soviets illegally invaded Poland, and were just as guilty as the Germans of doing things we can't discuss. And I'm certainly not justifying what happened. But there really was no war between Poland and the Soviet Union - Poland was already defeated.
Once it became apparent what was happening in the east of the country, the Polish leaders ordered an emergency retreat of the Army to neutral Romania, to get as much of their forces out of the country. Fighting continued in the siege of Warsaw up to 27 September, and some other isolated pockets, but that hides the reality of the situation - the Polish Army had fled to the south east and Warsaw was defended only by it's garrison. And, while some Soviet air units took part in the bombing of Warsaw, Soviet ground forces didn't. There were no major engagements between the Soviet and Polish Armies. Nothing on the level represented by HOI.
It's like saying there must be a war between Iceland and UK, between Japan and French forces in Indochina, or between US and French forces in North Africa. None of them would represent what actually happened, and would all cause major issues with the game mechanics.
I'm not saying some clever modder couldn't improve it a bit. But it hardly matters. Poland gets defeated with or without the Soviets in weeks, and this must not lead to an immediate war between the Allies and Soviet Union in 1939. Sure, if a France or UK player wants to fabricate a claim against the Soviets over Poland, or over Finland, then they should be able. But that takes time, and must not be done by an AI following historic strategies.
The division of Poland takes place in the game when Poland capitulates to Germany, which is not far from real-life. They had an agreement in the M-R Pact to divide Poland, but then entered into a new agreement on 28 September 1939 (the so-called Second M-R Pact) which set out the exact borders between them, giving Germany more of Poland and putting most of Lithuania into the Soviet sphere of influence. A few days later on the 8th October 1939, formal annexations took place. And that formally ended the war. But large-scale combat virtually ended even in the west when Poland lost the Battle of the Bzura, which took place 9-19 September 1939. The Poland plan was then to retreat to the land bridge connecting Poland to Romania, where they hoped to defend for a few months, until the Allies could begin a campaign in the West. That became impossible as Soviet troops crossed the border.
This was the disposition of forces on 31st August 1939:
There were no Polish forces of any note in the whole of the west of the country, other than a small force of elite border guards in Wilno, which the government was concerned would be attacked by Lithuania. Their positions were determined in Plan Zachód (Plan West) drawn up in the late 1930s. The plan assumed the Soviet Union would be neutral, as a Nazi-Communist alliance seemed unlikely. In fact, no-one could really believe it had happened in late August 1939, given the positions of their leaders in the years before.
Gameplay > History
Otherwise, you have Soviet forces engaged in full scale combat with Polish forces, which never happened, you have the Allied guarantee and, even if that was sorted out in the game, the Poland AI can call in their allies into the war against the Soviet Union. That probably also sends WT off the scale, and may bring US in. You immediately have all out war, and you always have it with Germany and the Soviet Union fighting together. Germany never fights a two front war.
No-one doubts that the Soviets illegally invaded Poland, and were just as guilty as the Germans of doing things we can't discuss. And I'm certainly not justifying what happened. But there really was no war between Poland and the Soviet Union - Poland was already defeated.
Once it became apparent what was happening in the east of the country, the Polish leaders ordered an emergency retreat of the Army to neutral Romania, to get as much of their forces out of the country. Fighting continued in the siege of Warsaw up to 27 September, and some other isolated pockets, but that hides the reality of the situation - the Polish Army had fled to the south east and Warsaw was defended only by it's garrison. And, while some Soviet air units took part in the bombing of Warsaw, Soviet ground forces didn't. There were no major engagements between the Soviet and Polish Armies. Nothing on the level represented by HOI.
It's like saying there must be a war between Iceland and UK, between Japan and French forces in Indochina, or between US and French forces in North Africa. None of them would represent what actually happened, and would all cause major issues with the game mechanics.
I'm not saying some clever modder couldn't improve it a bit. But it hardly matters. Poland gets defeated with or without the Soviets in weeks, and this must not lead to an immediate war between the Allies and Soviet Union in 1939. Sure, if a France or UK player wants to fabricate a claim against the Soviets over Poland, or over Finland, then they should be able. But that takes time, and must not be done by an AI following historic strategies.
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Unless I missed it being changed somewhere along the way, guarantees in HoI4 are not all-encompasing, but may be limited. So the simplest way to solve it would be to not include Poland in the Allies, but merely apply British and French guarantees targeted against Germany.
Just to clarify - the defending forces (Warsaw didn't have an actual garrison) consisted of elements of several infantry divisions and invidual regiments that either withdrew or were directed to the city during the first two weeks, mobilised reservists that were stopped there instead of being sent to the collapsed front, as well as the remnants of armies "Pomorze" and "Poznań" after the battle of Bzura. Including units deployed outside the city proper, the defending forces were over 100 thousand strong. Essentially, the defence of Warsaw involved everything that remained of the Polish army in this part of the country. Only units previously fighting in the south or mobilised in the east after the beginning of the invasion retreated to Romania.
There were no fronts and armies, not on the Polish side at least, but I guess it should be noted that the defences of Wilno, Grodno and Lwów did involve several thousand men at arms each. There was also the battle of Szack on 28-30 September - ca. 4k people of the Polish Border Protection Corps vs forward elements of the Soviet 52nd Rifles Division, and the fighting around Jabłoń and Milanów villages on 29-30 September, involving the Independent Operational Group "Polesie" (2 infantry divisions and an equivalent of 3 cavalry brigades). While minor affairs, they were nevertheless on the HoI scale.
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I think there needs to be the DOW by the Soviets and then most importantly there needs to be a decision from the UK on whether to then attack the Svoiets.
There was enough going on and the confusion over what the Russians were doing meant that the Allied populations really didn't care if the UK acted on the guarantee with Poland on the Soviets anyway, but for gameplay purposes it would be an interesting choice. It could mean that the Allies are at war with the Axis and Commintern separately which would be the 3 way wet dream of armchair generals evverywhere come 1941.
There was enough going on and the confusion over what the Russians were doing meant that the Allied populations really didn't care if the UK acted on the guarantee with Poland on the Soviets anyway, but for gameplay purposes it would be an interesting choice. It could mean that the Allies are at war with the Axis and Commintern separately which would be the 3 way wet dream of armchair generals evverywhere come 1941.
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It could also not be included because for people playing Poland, it turns a hard situation into an impossible one, making one of the more popular countries in hoi essentially unplayable in a historical game.
i'm sure Marshal Edward Rydz-Smigly felt the same way, seeing as the original plan to withdraw to the south was canned the moment the soviets invaded
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But perhaps, since this is somewhat a sandbox, the Poland player (either AI or player) WANTS to fight the soviets..you should be able to.
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Maybe this separate war shuld be possible when the Germany have 70% warscore with Poland or something like that?
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