Soviet Union ahistorical Barbarossa problem

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unmerged(280506)

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I noticed in games with both human or AI Germany players once they managed to pocket or overrun most of the army Soviets had at the beginning of Barbarossa the remainder of the war is a cakewalk. All Germany had to do was kill off enough of the pre-Barbarossa Soviet divisions and Moscow is as defenseless as a baby and Bitter Peace is just around the corner. However this was not realistic or historical in the least. In reality the Soviets lost most of their prewar army only to rebuild it by the time the Germans came knocking on Moscow. So how to model it in game? Perhaps an event or some special discount IC divs with lower stats should be given to the USSR as part of the Great Patriotic War events.

According to the Soviet military records http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-Busters/Mythbusters3.html

The Soviet land model shows that 182 rifle divisions, 43 militia rifle divisions, eight tank divisions, three mechanised divisions, 62 tank brigades, 50 cavalry divisions, 55 rifle brigades, 21 naval rifle brigades, 11 naval infantry brigades, 41 armies, 11 fronts and a multitude of other units were newly Mobilised and Deployed (MD) in the second half of 1941.

So in game this would mean by December 1941 the Soviets would finish building 50 Cavalry Divisions, 182 infantry divisions (with 62 tank brigades, 21 engineer (naval rifle) brigades and 55 artillery (rifle) brigades attached), 43 militia divisions, 8 tank divisions, 3 mech divisions, 4 Marine divisions (11 naval infantry brigades), and 11 HQs (fronts) to so all the stacks can be used effectively. This is what the Germans really fought in reality having destroyed the prewar Soviet army only to face a new army later. However in game I don't think the Soviets have enough IC or even enough time to build all these divisions in 6 months from June to December. So some kind of special event should be made that either trades these newly mobilized divisions for manpower (it could be a special Mobilization event thats Soviet only just like the Great Purge or an event that creates one-time special runs of Soviet only infantry/armored divisions that can be built cheaply (0.5 - 1 IC each) and fast (1-2 months) but once all the parallel/serial runs are completed no new building runs are allowed). You could even lower the stats of these special rapidly mobilized divisions along with the No Experience or lock them in place to prevent them from moving along the Leningrad - Moscow - Stalingrad front like the American division at Panama Canal. To protect game balance and historical accuracy the new divisions could just serve as a wall to halt the Germans outside Moscow, Stalingrad, and Leningrad and a Soviet player would have to build a new army from scratch to make offensive operations from '42-43. That way this wouldn't be seen as too unfair or gamey (despite the realism) and it would make the Soviet Union a real historical challenge not some Just Pocket Enough Divisions and Annex the USSR strategy too many human and AI players follow.
 

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If you will implement this, then the human / AI will always have to encircle roughly 5 million men worth of divs in 1941.

It is very hard for the AI to carry out such encirclements.

It is very hard for a human USSR to get 5 million men encircled.


So the only time it would make sense to implement this would be a human Germany vs AI USSR... Unless you are somehow going to nerf USSR to balance these new troops.

The no-experience has minimal effect. Nerfing the stats is not possible. Locking the units would take away the realism aspect, and be pretty crude considering how much mobile warfare is fought on the plains of USSR.
 

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Why is this hard to implement? Germany takes x city...event triggers.

My main problem with the USSR in this game is that their performance in the war depends entirely on their prewar OOB. Soviet industry/mobilization during the war is totally not represented.

In my opinion the German human/AI should have to make giant encirclements to have any chance....just because that's historically true.
 
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TremblingBlue

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I agree. I've never seen a defeated Germany in any of my games...sure, they've been Pushed back, but they soon rectify that problem and then it's bitter peace time.

I also think the officers purge should be optional...what is the actual point of having leaders that will just die before any conflict?
 

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Dutchemperor

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That would be a great explanation if I could actually remove Stalin.

Go to the misc .txt file. you can change that you also replace HoS and HoG. (yough you have to search for that good line, but the file isnt that big)
 

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But that's just modding. I don't want to do that...I just don't want to ruin my army :S
 

Vanguard44

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Partially relevant as to the Soviets "rebuilding" the Army. TL;DR they didn't rebuild it, it pretty much already existed.

On 31 December, 1940, the German General Staff finished work on a directive on the strategic deployment of the Wehrmacht for the surprise attack on the USSR. A top-secret appendix to the directive was prepared from data provided by German Intelligence, containing an appreciation of the fighting strength of the Red Army. The German generals believed that the Soviet land forces possessed 182 divisions, of which only 141 could be brought into a War against Germany. Because of the tense situation on the Asian frontiers of the USSR, a minimum of 41 divisions must at all costs be left guarding these frontiers. The whole plan for the war against the USSR was therefore based on an estimate of the speed with which 141 Soviet divisions could be destroyed.

On 22 June Germany attacked, taking everyone in the USSR, Stalin included, by surprise. The way the war developed could not have been better for Germany. In the first few hours, thousands of aircraft were blazing on Soviet airfields while thousands of Soviet tanks and guns did not even succeed in leaving their depots. In the first days of the war, dozens of Soviet divisions, finding themselves encircled and without ammunition, fuel or provisions, surrendered ingloriously. German armoured spearheads carried out brilliant encirclement operations surrounding not just Soviet divisions or corps but entire Armies. On the third day of the war the 3rd and the 10th Soviet Armies were surrounded near Bialystok. Immediately after this an equally large encirclement operation was carried out near Minsk, Vitebsk and Orsha, near Smolensk. Two Soviet armies were destroyed after being surrounded near Uman’ and five Armies in a huge pocket near Kiev.

However, already, even while the bells were ringing for their victories, the sober-minded German generals were biting their fingernails, as they bent over maps; the number of Soviet divisions was not diminishing – on the contrary, it was rising fast. Already in mid-August General Halder was writing in his diary: ‘We underestimated them. We have now discovered and identified 360 of their divisions!’ But Halder was only talking about the Soviet divisions which were directly involved at that moment in fighting in the forward areas – that is, first echelon divisions. But how many were there in the second echelon? And in the third? And in the reserves of the Armies and the Fronts? And in the internal military districts? And in the Stavka's reserve? And how many divisions had the NKVD? How many were there in all?

The miscalculation proved fatal. 153 German and 37 allied divisions proved insufficient to destroy the Red Army, even given the most favourable conditions.
The German generals’ miscalculation was twofold. Firstly, the Red Army consisted, not of 182 but of 303 divisions, without counting the divisions of the NKVD, the airborne forces, the marine infantry, the frontier troops, the Fortified Area troops and others.


- Inside the Soviet Army, Viktor Suvorov
 

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This is often true most military figures show total active troops. While there will be many more in reserve by those figures the modern Russian army is larger than the Chinese! I have seen highly doubtable figures stating the Russians may have as many as 20 million reserves l, however I doubt this is true.
 

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Of course, all reserves are not equal. The Soviets (and perhaps Russia, I'm not sure) used the older system of reserves where all men had to go through a short time of military service, after which they entered the reserves. These reserve units had no additional refresher training, exercises, or any real peacetime organization. On the few occasions that these reserves where called up, it turned into unmitigated disasters. Most western style military forces have a reserve system where units do more then simply exist on paper, but actually have equipment and train regularly.

The Threat: Inside the Soviet Military Machine, by Andrew Cockburn has a good explanation of the system used by the Soviets.

Compared with most other armies, the Soviet ground forces are old-fashioned. In the nineteenth century the Germans pioneered the system of mass conscription in peacetime. Young men were called up for a period, taught the rudiments of drill and how to handle their relatively simple weapons, and then sent home at the end of their service. They then formed part of the reserve, ready if needed to rejoin the colors and do their duty. By the eve of World War I, all the continental armies operated on this system, and the intricacies of the mobilization procedure were the main concerns of the general staffs of the day. So complex were these proce*dures indeed that once the mobilization system was put in motion it was very difficult to stop and became one of the reasons for the outbreak of the war.

Most armies today have substantially altered this system. Although many countries retain conscription and reserves, the reservists are regu*larly called up for retraining. Israeli reservists can count on spending a portion of each year in uniform. The West Germans, French, and Dutch also recognize the fact that worthwhile military skills grow stale with disuse. Even in the United States, National Guard divisions train regu*larly. Without constant refresher courses, the skills that are retained by veterans amount to little more than a familiarity with military routine, which raw recruits can pick up quickly enough anyway.

Only the Russians among the world's major military organizations have retained the nineteenth-century system. Officially, Marshal Petrov has a force of 169 divisions at his disposal (the eight airborne units are outside his direct control). Of this number, only 54 divisions are fully equipped and manned, and these are called Category 1 units by NATO intelligence. The rest are divided into Category 2 and 3 units, which vary from units having most of their equipment and perhaps half or two-thirds of their men to units having virtually no equipment and little more than a small nucleus of officers. The official Russian military term for these low-readi*ness units is kadrirovannye, or "cadre," but officers prefer to pun on the word and call them kastrirovannye, or "castrated." In time of war, these 115 reserve divisions would be brought up to strength with veteran con-scripts recalled for duty.

In theory this is a formidable system. Since the regular forces release 1.8 million draftees back into civilian life every year, the Soviet Union should have millions and millions of veterans trained and ready for ser*vice. But, as noted, almost none of these men will have had any retraining since they were discharged; none of the veterans I have talked to had ever been recalled for routine retraining. Some had seen extra service during emergency mobilizations, but these exercises, as we shall see, do not inspire much confidence in the efficiency of the system.

There have been three large-scale mobilizations of Soviet reservists in the past twenty-five years: in 1968, for the occupation of Czechoslovakia; in 1979, for the invasion of Afghanistan; and in 1980, for the aborted intervention in Poland.

By July 1968, there were at least 500,000 officers and men of the ground forces poised to occupy Czechoslovakia. The reservists of western Russia, from the Baltic to the Ukraine, had been summoned from their civilian jobs, tugging on the uniforms they had been presented with on the day they left the service. The call-up included machines, as well as men; as already mentioned, every truck in the Soviet Union has a set of military, as well as civilian, license plates. In 1968 both trucks and drivers were frequently called up together. Since the call-up happened at the beginning of the harvest season, the results for the economy, especially the food supply, were unfortunate. The effects were so severe that General Sergei S. Maryakhin, who was in charge of all support services for the invasion, had to admit to the problems in Krasnaya zvezda: "It is no secret," he wrote, "that the exercises urgently required the requisition of thousands of units of powerful technical equipment and motor transporta*tion from the national economy and the removal of thousands of reservists from [working in] the fields, at a time when the heavy work of the harvest was at its peak throughout the country."

While the economy staggered from the disruptive effects of the mobili*zation, the army did not find it easy to assimilate the influx of the reservists. In The Liberators, his satirical but invaluable memoir of life as a Soviet officer, the pseudonymous defector Viktor Suvorov describes the condi*tion of his unit in the Ukraine at this time:

After receiving its 'battle technology' [the military euphemism for the unit's collection of clapped out trucks commandeered from the civilian sector] the infantry was forbidden to leave the cover of the forests. On the roads and fields, only tank crews, the artillery and one parade battalion of armored personnel carriers were training. All the remainder were standing along forest cuttings and forest clearings. Viewed from outer space, it must have looked menacing, but not from the ground. The military hierarchy was afraid of frightening the locals by the look of our army: fat, untrained, and undisciplined soldiers, who had forgotten all they ever knew, in worn-out vehicles of all possible types and painted all the colors of the rainbow... . From outer space the Americans saw new divisions increasing like fungi. Their reconnaissance noted mighty tank columns on the roads and calculated that innumerable infantrymen lay hidden in the for*ests. And so it was, in fact, but this infantry was neither organized nor controlled and, what is most important of all, was incapable of fighting.
Any doubts about the effectiveness of this force were speedily dispelled once the Soviet army had entered Czechoslovakia. For political reasons, the Czech army chose not to resist, although the Soviets had cleverly weakened their capability anyway by inducing it to use up most of its ammunition in extensive joint maneuvers during the early summer. This lack of opposition was fortunate for the Russians.

The armored columns drove into Czechoslovakia in four main thrusts, from the Ukraine, Hungary, Poland, and East Germany. Simultaneously airborne units captured Prague Airport. The airborne element was the only part of the operation which could have been claimed to be a success. The first plane was able to land in the early hours of August 20 by the simple stratagem of pretending to be a civilian airliner in distress. Once the troops who burst out of the plane had overcome the unsuspecting Czechs in the control tower and other key points, the way was clear for other troop planes to land. Otherwise, the invasion quickly degenerated into chaos. Units got lost, armored units ran out of fuel, and troops ran out of food, while almost from the moment they crossed the border, the columns got stuck in enormous traffic jams, which would have provided tempting targets in a shooting war. Even after all the units had eventually found their positions, other problems appeared, as the troops began to wonder why they had been sent to occupy the country in the first place. Despite stringent precautions on the part of the authorities, several hun*dred men took the opportunity to desert across the frontier into Austria.

After two months, the units that had poured into the country in August were withdrawn and the reservists sent home. They were replaced by fresh divisions of conscripts; these moved straight into secluded camps, which were sealed off as much as possible from the local population and where their successors in the five Soviet divisions of the Czech garrison remain to this day. Suvorov, whose unit was one of those withdrawn in October 1968, pithily recalls: "As they left Czechoslovakia, our divisions reminded one of the remnants of a defeated army, fleeing from the hot pursuit after a shattering defeat."

The next opportunity for the Soviets to mobilize for an invasion did not come for another eleven years, and when it did, the enemy was shooting back.

For the move into Afghanistan in December 1979, the authorities mobilized reserve units close to the border, in accordance with accepted practice. This meant that at least two of the divisions dispatched to Kabul were made up not of Russians but of Central Asians, Category 3 "cas*trated" units, which had been hurriedly filled out with local former draft*ees. Unfortunately, most of these men had spent their draft years in noncombatant units, wielding a pick and shovel or working on the rail-roads. But when they were demobilized, they automatically went on the books of the local division, which was where they had to report when they got the call for the Afghan operation. Thus, the motor-rifle divisions used in the initial phases of the invasion looked warlike enough, but the bulk of the men in them had had little experience in the care and maintenance of tank transporters, field artillery batteries, tanks, and all the other mod-ern weapons.

To add to the problems of General Ivan Yershov's old mentor, Marshal Sergei Sokolov, who was in charge of the operation, these Asian troops were not only untrained, they were also politically unreliable. Perhaps the Russians had thought that using troops linked by race, culture, religion, and even language to the Afghans would help things along, but the collaboration went in quite the wrong direction. The Central Asian troops were observed passing ammunition to the locals, buying Korans in the bazaars, and possibly even handing over their personal weapons. There have even been reports that some Soviet Central Asians are prepared to oppose their government in more direct ways. Louis Dupree, an adventur*ous scholar in Afghan studies, spent some time in the main Kabul jail in 1978, when there were already some Soviet troops helping the Marxist Afghan government battle the insurgents. While incarcerated, he reports having met some Uzbeks, an ethnic group on the Soviet side of the border, who had come down to fight against their own government.

By the end of March 1980, the Soviet authorities evidently had con*cluded that the use of Asian troops in Afghanistan had been a mistake. They withdrew them and sent the reservists home, along with thousands of others who had been mobilized but kept in camps inside the Soviet Union. Since that time, the Soviet forces in Afghanistan have been almost exclusively made up of units of militarily more proficient and politically reliable Slavic conscripts.

This problem of unreliable border populations is not necessarily unique to Afghanistan. As a residue of the expansion of Russian power during the nineteenth century and after the Second World War, the Soviet border tends to slice through peoples with ethnic, cultural, religious, and political ties to each other. More than 1 million Poles live just inside the Soviet Union, as do 3 million Rumanians (known as Moldavians), to million Iranians (called Azeris), and huge numbers of Kazakhs and Uighurs, separated by the border from their fellow tribesmen in China.

When the young Moldavians, Azeris, Western Ukrainians, and the like are drafted, they tend to be dispatched to the noncombatant branches of the service; but once on the reserve lists, they are eligible for duty with
the nearest combat unit. This leaves the authorities with the invidious choice of either accepting Iarge numbers of ill-trained and potentially disaffected troops into the forces during a mobilization or simply exempt*ing them from reserve duty altogether, thus denying the state large num*bers of potential soldiers.

The third operation by the Soviet army to gear itself up for military action ended, probably happily for all concerned, without any troops actually being sent across the border. By mid-November 1980, as I de-scribed in Chapter 4, the Politburo had authorized a mobilization of the Carpathian, Baltic, and Byelorussian Military Districts prior to intervening in Poland. In at least one of these districts, the Carpathian, the mobiliza*tion was a disaster. Reports reached Moscow that large numbers of reser*vists had failed to answer the call. Many could not even be located by the military authorities (15 percent of the Soviet population changes address every year). Those who did turn up were housed in tents, and since winter had set in, this may have been the reason that so many of them promptly deserted and went home. There were, in fact, so many deserters, that the authorities gave up trying to catch and punish them. Other aspects of the operation displayed a severe lack of coordination. Units were shifted back and forth around the countryside for no apparent reason, and trucks were pointlessly requisitioned off the roads in the middle of the night.

As previously discussed, the foul-up gave Brezhnev the lever he needed to turn the tables on the interventionists in the Politburo and the army high command. The shake-up in the senior ranks of the ground forces which ensued was accompanied by fierce criticisms by military spokesmen of the readiness of the forces. General Borisov, who took over command of the Soviet forces in Czechoslovakia in January 1980, went on record with unprecedented accusations to his subordinates of "drunkenness, abuse of rank, corruption, mismanagement, waste, bureaucratism." Mar*shal Nikolai Ogarkov himself spoke out several times in the next few months about the need to shape up the army's reserve system. But, as ever, politics took precedence over military efficiency, since General Belikov, the commander of the Carpathian Military District, where the worst scenes of disorganization took place, was not sacked owing to his close association with Brezhnev.

Predictably, the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency refused to counte*nance that anything could have gone wrong with the Soviet reserve sys*tem. The agency was asked by a Congressional committee to comment on reports from Kevin Klose, the Moscow correspondent of the Washington Post, about the disorganization and desertions. Klose insists that he and other Western journalists got the story "from what had always been very reliable sources, who were derailed and specific enough about what had happened to be totally convincing." Despite this, the Defense Intelligence Agency took refuge in conjecture. "While it is possible that the situation occurred as described, it is not considered likely," the military intelligence service stiffly informed the joint Economic Committee. Sticking closely to the conditional tense, it pointed out that "administrative and internal security organs would act to preclude an incident of such magnitude, and to ensure punishment of the individuals involved." Like the military jour*nalists who assumed a Soviet conquest of Western Europe in 48 hours in 1947, the military establishment continues to prefer theories to facts, one such theory being, to quote Thomas C. Reed, an influential adviser to President Reagan's National Security Council, the Soviets can mobilize 200 divisions within 30 days."

The bleak record of Soviet mobilization efforts has to be balanced off against the fact that it is not an entirely useless system. Creaky though it is, the organization does exist, some of the men do turn up, and a propor*tion of them are trained. In 1941, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, the country did mobilize 5.5 million men in eight days. Conditions were different then of course; it was much harder for Soviet citizens to move house without the express permission of the authorities, and the army was organized along more primitive lines, with simpler weapons than today. The condition of the U.S. reserve system does not present an overly bright picture, although some of the NATO allies, such as the West Germans and the Dutch, have what are by all accounts well-organized and practiced systems.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that an awful lot of those 177 or so Soviet divisions so frequently advertised by the Pentagon would have a meaning*ful part to play in any conflict with the United States and its allies only after a very long shakedown period, much longer than the "30 days" so care*lessly tossed off by Reed. Despite their enormous losses in World War II, the Soviets were able to find the reserves necessary to throw back the Germans. It is unlikely that a contest between East and West would last four years, or even six months, the length of time that some intelligence officials report it took for the Russians to get ready for Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan. A nuclear war would probably be quite short; a conventional one would in all likelihood not last long either. Apart from anything else, the Soviet economy of today would be far more disrupted by the effects of mass mobilization than the far more primitive Soviet economy of World War II. The Israelis, who are practiced at mobilizing quickly, find that their wars cause really serious trouble to the economy if they last much longer than a month. It therefore looks as if the Soviets, if they have to go to war, will fight with what they have.
 

Schmitz

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it's still true in Russia, all my friends have already been, are currently in, or will be going into the Russian army. anyway, wouldn't the best way to rectify this be to change the soviet ai to just build massive amounts of infantry during peacetime? because i feel like their army is too small and too modern and their air force is too big and too modern. maybe just change the ai so that they land units rather than upgrade/build air units.
 
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I find the AI generally fails as the Soviets. IC aside, Germany is hands-down superior as a country and the reasons it won (not to start a history flamewar) had more to do with U.S. money and bombs than Russian ingenuity. The Russians were, historically, utterly defeated by the Germans. They "won" because Germany couldn't afford to focus their technical infrastructure on the East.

To make it more historical, the U.S.A. should send the Soviets crap tons of resources and money after they get their heads kicked in by the Germans; but in the game this doesn't actually work out how it did, because the mystery element of 'i.c.' is far more important than money, which it was not in history (the UK never had 1/10th of the actual industrial output of the U.S.A. in 1910-1940, what they had was vast amounts of money)
 

Easy1

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This is a good thread. It advocates a basic problem no HOI game has been completely able to deal with.

The HOI3 mod Dies Irae represents Soviet army build up with Soviet build time relative to the location of the front. That is to say that build time decreases for all army units the longer into Soviet territory the Germans advance. This system has, from what I have heard, worked to som degree.

The main issue for HOI games is that you need (heavy) industry to forment soldiers - even the most basic soldier. There is no separation between quality and quantity of IC, and hence quality and quantity armies.

The IRL fact that you don't really need much industry to produce a knife, some bullets and a rifle for a fighting man is hardly reflectet. Quality aside, industrial capacity is not a prerequisite for producing quantity.

Therefore, armies with low quality and high quantity is not represented fairly and properly in HOI games.

Ethiopia had a 700 000 strong army before the Italian invasion. China had some 400 divisons and the Soviet number peaked somewhere between 600-700. This cannot be represented with the current system. And it gets even worse in the post WWII era when parts of the third and second world (zero IC-regions) historically raised huge armies, with of course low quality.

It should be notet though, that the mobilization feature in DH decreases the with of this problem. But I still hope this will be fully dealt with in som future HOI-release