Soviet research slots vs German research slots.

[Sunforged General]

Why does the USSR start with 3 slots but Italy and Germany start with 5 research slots? During the 1930s the USSR was continuously ahead of Germany and Italy in technology.

1. In terms of Synthetic rubber, the Soviet Union built the world's first polybutadiene (modern synthetic rubber) plant in which the butadiene was obtained from petroleum. And the Soviet developed process was copied by Germany to produce their synthetic rubber. "The first rubber plant in Europe SK-1 (from Russian "Synthetic Kauchuk", Russian: СК-1) was established (Russia) by Sergei Lebedev in Yaroslavl under Joseph Stalin's first five-year plan on July 7, 1932. By 1940, the Soviet Union had the largest synthetic rubber industry in the world, producing more than 50,000 tons per year. During World War II, Lebedev's process of obtaining butadiene from ethyl alcohol was also used by the German rubber industry.[4]"
2. In terms of heavy tank design, in 1939 the USSR had the KV-1, with 75mm thick armor, was the worlds most powerful heavy tank. Germany a year later had only one kind of "heavy tank" called the Neubaufahrzeug, this "heavy tank" had armor equivalent to that of a light tank, such as a T-26. No German tank until late 1942 was able to compete with the KV-1, this means the Soviets had nearly a year and a half of tank superiority over Germany after Operation Barbarossa.
3. The Soviets began production of the Petlyakov Pe-8 heavy bomber in 1936, it was a long range heavy bomber with four engines, something Germany never achieved. This soviet heavy bomber had a range of 3700Km, which is far greater than any German bomber, It also had a greater maximum flight ceiling than any German bomber produced.
4. The largest Soviet aerial Bomb used in WW2 was the FAB-5000, a 11,000lb bomb, the largest German aerial bomb used in WW2 was the SC2500, which weighed 5,300lb.
5. The Soviets had the first modern rocket launcher system in service by 1939 in the form of the Katyusha rocket launcher. The first comparable German rocket launcher (not counting single rocket mortar devices, which are not comparable to a Katyusha) was the 15 cm Nebelwerfer 41, which entered service 2 years later in 1941.
6. In terms of Medium tank design, the Soviets were again ahead, as the T-34 was said by German generals as follows "After the Germans encountered the tank in 1941, German general Paul Ludwig Ewald von Kleist called it "the finest tank in the world"[6] and Heinz Guderian affirmed the T-34's "vast superiority" over German tanks.[7][8]"
7. Industrialization in the regions constituting modern Germany is understood by historians to have switched the region from agriculture to industry between the years 1830-1880. Russia/USSR industrialized and transitioned from an agricultural state to a industrial one in the years 1928-1938. Now to accomplish in 10 years what took Germany 50, had to involve immense technological advancements.
8. In the 1930s, the Soviets, not Germany, were the pioneers of Aeronautic feats. "The Soviet pilot Valery Chkalov was the first to fly non-stop from Europe to the American Pacific Coast. His flight from Moscow, Russian SFSR, Soviet Union to Vancouver, Washington, United States, via the North Pole on a Tupolev ANT-25 single-engine plane (June 18–20, 1937) took 63 hours to complete. The distance covered was 8,811 kilometres (5,475 mi).[2] "

Even during WWII itself the USSR did not loose this technological advantage, contrary to the misconceptions of many about "superior German technology". Soviet choices for example to mass produce "good enough" weapons, instead of superior weapons to those of the Germans, were based on the fact that the Soviets had many more men to equip than Germany did. Focusing on superior designs would have only provided some Soviet soldiers with better weapons than the Germans, and left many others with no weapons. Even with this situation, some Soviet wartime designs were still superior to German ones.

So I ask again, why does Germany and Italy get 5 technological research slots and the Soviets only 3?

 

[DicRoNero]

Since when Germany and Italy start with 5 slots when in fact it takes them 4-5 focus picks to get there? Soviets have +10% research speed by Progress Cult, and now also 2 extra spies from national spirits, which can be used for tech stealing just fine.

What you miss is that while the Soviets might have had certain advancements, the general level of their industrial culture was undeniably far lower than that of Germany, and I don't see any national spirits to account for that. So I prefer to think this is modelled by giving them less slots at the start (3 vs 4, to be exact).

 

[Askorti]

1. In terms of heavy tank design, in 1939 the USSR had the KV-1, with 75mm thick armor, was the worlds most powerful heavy tank. Germany a year later had only one kind of "heavy tank" called the Neubaufahrzeug, this "heavy tank" had armor equivalent to that of a light tank, such as a T-26. No German tank until late 1942 was able to compete with the KV-1, this means the Soviets had nearly a year and a half of tank superiority over Germany after Operation Barbarossa.
2. The Soviets began production of the Petlyakov Pe-8 heavy bomber in 1936, it was a long range heavy bomber with four engines, something Germany never achieved. This soviet heavy bomber had a range of 3700Km, which is far greater than any German bomber, and is even greater range than the US Boeing B-29 Superfortress, which didn't begin production until 1943. It also had a greater maximum flight ceiling than any German bomber produced.
3. The largest Soviet aerial Bomb used in WW2 was the FAB-5000, a 11,000lb bomb, the largest German aerial bomb used in WW2 was the SC2500, which weighed 5,300lb.

I have no intention to disagree with your overall point, but just point out that the way you back it up using these 3 points is a bit iffy.
What I mean? The fact, that the soviets had these things faster, or at all, does not in any way mean that they were technologically superior. It is possible that Germans quite simply didn't put much effort into R&D of those things. Perhaps strategic bombers, really big and heavy bombs and heavy tanks before the war weren't things the the Germans saw much utility in, so they simply didn't spend as much time trying to make them.

 

[Sunforged General]

Since when Germany and Italy start with 5 slots when in fact it takes them 4-5 focus picks to get there? Soviets have +10% research speed by Progress Cult, and now also 2 extra spies from national spirits, which can be used for tech stealing just fine.

What you miss is that while the Soviets might have had certain advancements, the general level of their industrial culture was undeniably far lower than that of Germany, and I don't see any national spirits to account for that. So I prefer to think this is modelled by giving them less slots at the start (3 vs 4, to be exact).

In what way was the general "industrial culture" lower in the USSR? what does "industrial culture" even mean? During the 1930s, it seems like most major technological advancements were coming out of the USSR.

 

[Sunforged General]

I have no intention to disagree with your overall point, but just point out that the way you back it up using these 3 points is a bit iffy.
What I mean? The fact, that the soviets had these things faster, or at all, does not in any way mean that they were technologically superior. It is possible that Germans quite simply didn't put much effort into R&D of those things. Perhaps strategic bombers, really big and heavy bombs and heavy tanks before the war weren't things the the Germans saw much utility in, so they simply didn't spend as much time trying to make them.

Well, I imagine the Germans did see a great need for synthetic rubber, and the Soviets beat them to that punch too. Its also worth noting that the T-34 at the time of its introduction was also superior to any German tank. So even in the medium tank category the Soviets had the technological advantage. At least in the early parts of WWII.

 

[blahmaster6k]

Well, I imagine the Germans did see a great need for synthetic rubber, and the Soviets beat them to that punch too. Its also worth noting that the T-34 at the time of its introduction was also superior to any German tank. So even in the medium tank category the Soviets had the technological advantage. At least in the early parts of WWII.

The Soviets also didn't have international observers constantly looking over their shoulders to make sure they weren't in violation of the Versailles Treaty. They didn't have to limit their tank research to what could be disguised as tractors, or bombers as passenger planes. They also couldn't do the volume of research into things like tanks when any large scale effort would have been noticed and possibly led to an invasion of Germany by France or the UK for treaty violation, at a time when their military was more or less completely demobilized. Germany focused its military research on things that they would be able to hide from the western powers until they were prepared.

 

[valentin4]

Why does the USSR start with 3 slots but Italy and Germany start with 5 research slots? During the 1930s the USSR was continuously ahead of Germany and Italy in technology.

1. In terms of Synthetic rubber, the Soviet Union built the world's first polybutadiene (modern synthetic rubber) plant in which the butadiene was obtained from petroleum. And the Soviet developed process was copied by Germany to produce their synthetic rubber. "The first rubber plant in Europe SK-1 (from Russian "Synthetic Kauchuk", Russian: СК-1) was established (Russia) by Sergei Lebedev in Yaroslavl under Joseph Stalin's first five-year plan on July 7, 1932. By 1940, the Soviet Union had the largest synthetic rubber industry in the world, producing more than 50,000 tons per year. During World War II, Lebedev's process of obtaining butadiene from ethyl alcohol was also used by the German rubber industry.[4]"
2. In terms of heavy tank design, in 1939 the USSR had the KV-1, with 75mm thick armor, was the worlds most powerful heavy tank. Germany a year later had only one kind of "heavy tank" called the Neubaufahrzeug, this "heavy tank" had armor equivalent to that of a light tank, such as a T-26. No German tank until late 1942 was able to compete with the KV-1, this means the Soviets had nearly a year and a half of tank superiority over Germany after Operation Barbarossa.
3. The Soviets began production of the Petlyakov Pe-8 heavy bomber in 1936, it was a long range heavy bomber with four engines, something Germany never achieved. This soviet heavy bomber had a range of 3700Km, which is far greater than any German bomber, and is even greater range than the US Boeing B-29 Superfortress, which didn't begin production until 1943. It also had a greater maximum flight ceiling than any German bomber produced.
4. The largest Soviet aerial Bomb used in WW2 was the FAB-5000, a 11,000lb bomb, the largest German aerial bomb used in WW2 was the SC2500, which weighed 5,300lb.
5. The Soviets had the first modern rocket launcher system in service by 1939 in the form of the Katyusha rocket launcher. The first comparable German rocket launcher (not counting single rocket mortar devices, which are not comparable to a Katyusha) was the 15 cm Nebelwerfer 41, which entered service 2 years later in 1941.
6. In terms of Medium tank design, the Soviets were again ahead, as the T-34 was said by German generals as follows "After the Germans encountered the tank in 1941, German general Paul Ludwig Ewald von Kleist called it "the finest tank in the world"[6] and Heinz Guderian affirmed the T-34's "vast superiority" over German tanks.[7][8]"
7. Industrialization in the regions constituting modern Germany is understood by historians to have switched the region from agriculture to industry between the years 1830-1880. Russia/USSR industrialized and transitioned from an agricultural state to a industrial one in the years 1928-1938. Now to accomplish in 10 years what took Germany 50, had to involve immense technological advancements.
8. In the 1930s, the Soviets, not Germany, were the pioneers of Aeronautic feats. "The Soviet pilot Valery Chkalov was the first to fly non-stop from Europe to the American Pacific Coast. His flight from Moscow, Russian SFSR, Soviet Union to Vancouver, Washington, United States, via the North Pole on a Tupolev ANT-25 single-engine plane (June 18–20, 1937) took 63 hours to complete. The distance covered was 8,811 kilometres (5,475 mi).[2] "

Even during WWII itself the USSR did not loose this technological advantage, contrary to the misconceptions of many about "superior German technology". Soviet choices for example to mass produce "good enough" weapons, instead of superior weapons to those of the Germans, were based on the fact that the Soviets had many more men to equip than Germany did. Focusing on superior designs would have only provided some Soviet soldiers with better weapons than the Germans, and left many others with no weapons. Even with this situation, some Soviet wartime designs were still superior to German ones.

So I ask again, why does Germany and Italy get 5 technological research slots and the Soviets only 3?

2. The heavier soviet tanks (KV 1 and T34) had in 1941 were overall inferior combat systems than their opponents, despite what a quick look at the numbers like armor, gun caliber, speed etc... suggests. One key thing was basically negating these advantages : poor ergonomics, as well as poor optics and reliability. When the americans studied an exemplar of the T34, a technician said that the guy who designed the tank's interior deserved to be shot.

3. Germany didn't focus on four engines bombers because they couldn't, but because of a choice to focus on tactical two engines bomber (tied to the death of Walther Wever). The Germans did work on several advanced strategic bomber designs later in the war, and even the troublesome He 177, when it matured, was a very advanced design. The Germans didn't lack scientific knowledge to deploy a large strategic bomber force, but they did lack industrial power and resources.

6. The T34 was a far less impressive weapon that its legend suggests. One clue is to look at the massive numbers of T34 destroyed/broken down during the war, surprising for such a "superior" tank. https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-t-34-in-wwii-the-legend-vs-the-performance/

7. And massive slave labor

 

[Fr3ddi3]

There is no real tech advanatage on the eastern front because Germany blows 1 research slot, at least, on naval warfare, same with Italy.

Give russia the same time frame for it's max tech slots and I can assure you, it's gonna be used on the army, airforce or industry ... things which russia is already able to powergame with 4 research slots as it is.

 

[Gondwana]

You are wrong
Synthetic fuel and food mass used in Germany for natural reasons. Synthetics and substitutes not developed in USSR . Russia has a weak material and technical base, which cant produce high-quality products . For this reason, lend-les included: shoes, stew, aluminum, mechanisms for tanks(ball bearings ), fuel for aircraft, and more. Also, USSR massively bought German machine-tools before the war.
The only problem front line, which does not allow USSR to have superiority over Ger.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

In what way was the general "industrial culture" lower in the USSR? what does "industrial culture" even mean?

You said it yourself: Russian Empire was an agrarian country. Do you really believe that purchasing Western machinery also got necessary knowledge and skills into yesterday's peasants? or that said machinery was top-of-the-line? Precision manufacturing was impossible, electronic production almost non-existent - both limited quality of end-product. While on-paper performance was top-notch, usability often suffered.

6. The T34 was a far less impressive weapon that its legend suggests. One clue is to look at the massive numbers of T34 destroyed/broken down during the war, surprising for such a "superior" tank. https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-t-34-in-wwii-the-legend-vs-the-performance/

It was superior during first year or so, when Red Army was in total disarray, Luftwaffe had control of the skies, and Wermacht had sufficient numerical superiority, time, and intelligence to concentrate their AT forces. When strategical situation reversed, so did T34 combat superiority (ease of manufacturing was still a thing, though).

 

[valentin4]

It was superior during first year or so, when Red Army was in total disarray, Luftwaffe had control of the skies, and Wermacht had sufficient numerical superiority, time, and intelligence to concentrate their AT forces. When strategical situation reversed, so did T34 combat superiority (ease of manufacturing was still a thing, though).

No :

In 1943, close to two thirds (63%) of AFVs lost were T-34s. As in 1941 and 1942, at least three T-34s were lost for every enemy fully tracked AFV destroyed. The vast majority of these losses were due to direct enemy fire and cannot be attributed to operational losses, because by 1943 the Soviets were most often gaining control of the battlefield and were recovering almost all disabled and partially destroyed tanks. Indeed, it was the Germans who were suffering increasing numbers of operational losses, so if anything the T-34’s tactical loss ratio in 1943 was probably closer to four or five to one.

In 1944 the Soviets still managed to lose 23 700 fully tracked AFVs of which only 2 200 were light tanks: the highest number of AFV losses in a single year by any country in history.(20) Of these losses 58% were T-34s, the large majority being T-34/85s. Despite all possible factors being in their favour and despite massive German operational losses during 1944, the Soviets still managed to loose around three AFVs for every German AFV destroyed, or around four tanks (mostly T-34/85s) for every German tank destroyed.

 

[Zauberelefant]

I think that a thread that has its premises wrong is doomed to fail.
But anyways, USSR was not as advanced as Germany, they had no Volksempfänger radio, no Volkswagen car, no Zeppeline and no Panzerfaust.

/s

If you believe Research slots are a direct function of assessed technological advancement by the devs, you probably believe that 1 MIC is an actual factory and Infrastructure means x roads, y railroads and z bridges.
In other words, you fell for the fallacy of taking things literally.

 

[amalric de g.]

Why does the USSR start with 3 slots but Italy and Germany start with 5 research slots? During the 1930s the USSR was continuously ahead of Germany and Italy in technology.

1. In terms of Synthetic rubber, the Soviet Union built the world's first polybutadiene (modern synthetic rubber) plant in which the butadiene was obtained from petroleum. And the Soviet developed process was copied by Germany to produce their synthetic rubber. "The first rubber plant in Europe SK-1 (from Russian "Synthetic Kauchuk", Russian: СК-1) was established (Russia) by Sergei Lebedev in Yaroslavl under Joseph Stalin's first five-year plan on July 7, 1932. By 1940, the Soviet Union had the largest synthetic rubber industry in the world, producing more than 50,000 tons per year. During World War II, Lebedev's process of obtaining butadiene from ethyl alcohol was also used by the German rubber industry.[4]"

The first patent was a german patent on synthetic rubber (1909 Fritz Hofmann). Germany produced synthetic rubber during WW1. In 1929 Eduard Bock and Eduard Tschunkur refined the production of synthetic rubber. So your statement is plain and simple false.

 

[George Parr]

Apart from the other rebuttals, one also shouldn't forget that Germany has a navy to care about, which is something you can't really say about the Soviets. The costs of naval research and naval doctrines more than makes up the one additional research slot Germany may have early on.

 

[Zauberelefant]

In all fairness, Germany gets 4x100% research bonus on both Land and air doctrines, 2x100% for naval and 2x100% for industry, so there's a bit of a lead on the soviets. The advisors are better, too.

Then again, if you fail to concentrate on stuff critical to USSR gameplay, tipping the balance of research slota isn't going to solve the Problem.

 

[Harin]

The game does not balances Russian tech by research slots alone. Russia, in the game, achieves all it was capable of, and more, during the war. The Russians deserve praise for accomplishing so much with what they had to work with, but not an additional research slot in the game, while all else remains equal.

For Russia specifically, and probably other nations, the game might need to fine tune the mobilization of industry. Russia, in particular, was able to bring to bear more national resources (raw, processed, manpower, end result production) than any other nation, including the USA. The war ended before the USA even got close to fully mobilizing her economy. The USA had growing civilian consumption and no shortage in industrial manpower to the very end. In summary, the USA, nor any other major country, could have produced the quantity of equipment that the Russians produced under the same circumstances. Resource Mobilization WW2.

As far as cherry picking technological achievements, that is like comparing anecdotal evidence to statistical facts. It makes good headliners, but does not reflect reality. For example, the Russians did produce a good tank in the T-34, but on the other hand, they could not design and build a decent war truck that could be produced in sufficient numbers.

Russia's reality was it had been a non-competitive industrial nation, until just before the war. It had begun a historic transformation that was incomplete before the war started. All during the war it depended on lend-lease to fill in the gaps that such rushed and forced transformations are bound to leave behind. Those short-comings included high quality fuels, high quality machine tools, high quality electronics, high quality workforce, etc... The Russians were capable of inventing what it needed, but it did not have the time to learn how to make things well and in quantity, so it made things good enough and in quantity.

In the time frame of the game, it makes sense that Russia has one less slot to start the game with. Russia started the 1930's with almost nothing relative to the major powers. To make Russia equal with other majors, would trivialize the advancements Russia made from 1930 to 1941. Their work was not complete.

 

[Volodio]

No :

In 1943, close to two thirds (63%) of AFVs lost were T-34s. As in 1941 and 1942, at least three T-34s were lost for every enemy fully tracked AFV destroyed. The vast majority of these losses were due to direct enemy fire and cannot be attributed to operational losses, because by 1943 the Soviets were most often gaining control of the battlefield and were recovering almost all disabled and partially destroyed tanks. Indeed, it was the Germans who were suffering increasing numbers of operational losses, so if anything the T-34’s tactical loss ratio in 1943 was probably closer to four or five to one.

In 1944 the Soviets still managed to lose 23 700 fully tracked AFVs of which only 2 200 were light tanks: the highest number of AFV losses in a single year by any country in history.(20) Of these losses 58% were T-34s, the large majority being T-34/85s. Despite all possible factors being in their favour and despite massive German operational losses during 1944, the Soviets still managed to loose around three AFVs for every German AFV destroyed, or around four tanks (mostly T-34/85s) for every German tank destroyed.

The losses were due to shitty Soviet tactics and strategies. For instance the fact that they had no radio, no coordination with the infantry/artillery, poor command, poor trained crew, etc. Yet, the tank itself was still better than the German panzers. During Barbarossa, they were unable to pierce the T34. They had to get close to destroy them, which they were able to do because the Soviet tanks had no cover, no communication between the tanks and was often attacking alone and became isolated.

 

[Zauberelefant]

The game does not balances Russian tech by research slots alone. Russia, in the game, achieves all it was capable of, and more, during the war. The Russians deserve praise for accomplishing so much with what they had to work with, but not an additional research slot in the game, while all else remains equal.

For Russia specifically, and probably other nations, the game might need to fine tune the mobilization of industry. Russia, in particular, was able to bring to bear more national resources (raw, processed, manpower, end result production) than any other nation, including the USA. The war ended before the USA even got close to fully mobilizing her economy. The USA had growing civilian consumption and no shortage in industrial manpower to the very end. In summary, the USA, nor any other major country, could have produced the quantity of equipment that the Russians produced under the same circumstances. Resource Mobilization WW2.

As far as cherry picking technological achievements, that is like comparing anecdotal evidence to statistical facts. It makes good headliners, but does not reflect reality. For example, the Russians did produce a good tank in the T-34, but on the other hand, they could not design and build a decent war truck that could be produced in sufficient numbers.

Russia's reality was it had been a non-competitive industrial nation, until just before the war. It had begun a historic transformation that was incomplete before the war started. All during the war it depended on lend-lease to fill in the gaps that such rushed and forced transformations are bound to leave behind. Those short-comings included high quality fuels, high quality machine tools, high quality electronics, high quality workforce, etc... The Russians were capable of inventing what it needed, but it did not have the time to learn how to make things well and in quantity, so it made things good enough and in quantity.

In the time frame of the game, it makes sense that Russia has one less slot to start the game with. Russia started the 1930's with almost nothing relative to the major powers. To make Russia equal with other majors, would trivialize the advancements Russia made from 1930 to 1941. Their work was not complete.

This is beautiful. Thank you for bringing the soviet achievements out like they deserve.

 

[valentin4]

The losses were due to shitty Soviet tactics and strategies. For instance the fact that they had no radio, no coordination with the infantry/artillery, poor command, poor trained crew, etc. Yet, the tank itself was still better than the German panzers. During Barbarossa, they were unable to pierce the T34. They had to get close to destroy them, which they were able to do because the Soviet tanks had no cover, no communication between the tanks and was often attacking alone and became isolated.

re-read the post you're answering to. What you say doesn't apply to 1943 and 1944, yet the T34 (and improved T34/85) suffered massive losses and very unfavourable kill ratios, up until the end of the war.

 

[DukofDeth]

The German heavy bomber effort died with that one air force leader - Waller, Weller or something - as his successor was much more in favor of tactical bombers.