soviet policy during WW2 timeperiod

[D Inqu]

The conspiracy theory about "Neutral Finland" is outright bizzare. It may have passed as wartime propaganda, but with all of today's information, to cling to it is absurd. Going no further than wikipedia:

On 20 May 1941, the Germans invited some Finnish officers to discuss the coordination of Operation Barbarossa. The participants met on 25–28 May in Salzburg and Berlin, and continued their meeting in Helsinki from 3 to 6 June. They agreed upon the arrival of German troops, Finnish mobilization, and a general division of operations.[45] They also agreed that the Finnish Army would start mobilization on 15 June,

So Finland was fully commited to going to war

German minelayers hiding in the Archipelago Sea laid two large minefields across the Gulf of Finland in the late hours of 21 June.[48][49] Later the same night, German bombers flew along the Gulf of Finland to Leningrad and mined the harbour and the river Neva. On the return trip, these bombers landed for refueling in Utti.

So, German ships and planes actively using Finnish terriotry to conduct military operatons.

In the early hours of 22 June, Finnish forces launched Operation Kilpapurjehdus, which aimed to deploy troops to the demilitarized Åland Islands. An international treaty on the status of the islands called for Finland to defend them in case of the threat of an attack.[50] However, the operation was coordinated with the German invasion, and the personnel of the Soviet consulate there were arrested. According to Finnish historian Mauno Jokipii, Finland knew that it had violated international protocol.[51]

The arrest of the consulate alone was a clear indication of Finland just waing to a pretext to "formally" declare war.

On 21 June, Finnish units began to concentrate at the Finnish-Soviet border, where they were arranged into defensive formations. Finland mobilized 16 infantry divisions, one cavalry brigade, and two jäger brigades

Two German mountain divisions were stationed at Petsamo and two infantry divisions at Salla. On the morning of 22 June, the German Mountain Corps Norway began its advance from northern Norway to Petsamo. Finland did not allow direct German attacks from its soil into the Soviet Union. On the same day, another German infantry division was moved from Oslo to face Ladoga Karelia.

And so on and so on. Finland was fully commited and coordinating with the Germans on the invasion from late May 1941 to get a slice of the cake, just like all other axis minors. One can discuss whether they felt they were in the right to do this, or whether this was wise. But denying it with some flimsy "neutral" exacuses is just silly.

 

[Cavalry]

And so on and so on. Finland was fully commited and coordinating with the Germans on the invasion from late May 1941 to get a slice of the cake, just like all other axis minors. One can discuss whether they felt they were in the right to do this, or whether this was wise. But denying it with some flimsy "neutral" exacuses is just silly.

Yeah and I want to add they were pro Axis even before Winter War, they didn't need a pro Axis coup like most other Axis minors!

The moment Winter War began, they realized the German had abandoned them and they had to rush to contact the Soviet for peace! Why they were so fast for peace but so stubborn in peaceful fair deal before? Only answer is they expected help from Germany.

 

[Cavalry]

Soviet policy during WW2 can simply be called Stalin's policy,since he was the only one who got to decide on the matter.

I will lay out what i feel happened of relevance during that period and Stalin's motivations.

In Europe:

1.Rise of fascism.
Stalin didnt see fascism as a serious issue to begin with,after all having some Italians and Germans feeling patriotic wasnt exactly a threat to him.
But when things started heating up he decided to take action to try and contain them.
This was most clear during the Spanish Civil War where Stalin provided a lot of help to the Republicans while the French and British happily ignored the whole affair.

2.Stalin offered the French an anti-German alliance which they declined.
Following this Stalin decided that if he couldnt expect help fighting a war he may as well get help not fighting one,so he made an agreement with Hitler,the deal seemed good enough to Stalin,just grab most of East Europe while the Germans and Allies butcher each other in a rerun of WW1.

3.The Germans wreck everyone.
At this point Stalin started feeling a little uneasy,his idea of the imperialists bleeding each other white didnt work out the way he,or anyone else for that matter,expected.
As such Stalin is now in full appeasement mode towards Adolf hoping to consolidate the new gains and equip the Red Army with newer toys while Germany finishes off Britain.
Surely attacking the USSR while fighting the largest empire on earth would be madness,right?

4.Germany attacks the USSR.
At this point Stalin is probably given up on trying to roleplay Nostradamus,only thing really left is to fight this existential war to the end,and afterwards every nation that helped Germany,or was to weak to stop it,will simply have to be put under Soviet "protection" to ensure that such a disaster is never again experienced by Russia.

In Asia:

1.Before Japanese invasion.
Stalin was content to meddle a bit in Western China and keep an eye on the Japanese,but for the most part he showed little care for the place,after all there really wasnt anything of special worth there to begin with,apart from a fragmented China in the process of murdering itself.

2.Japanese invasion.
Since Japan was rampaging through China the USSR had 2 options.
1.It could grab some bits of China that were worth nothing.
2.Prop up China to bleed the Japanese and allow the USSR to remain secure in the Far East.
Like in the Spanish Civil War,here once again Stalin was the only one willing to provide real support to the victims of the soon-to-be Axis,if for no other reason than not want to have to deal with anyone hostile empire's near him.

3.Japan goes crazy and attacks everyone.
At this point Stalin had already fought off the Japanese incursions into Soviet territory and was continuing to help the Chinese,with Japan now tied up in China and the entire Pacific there was little risk of the Soviet Far East being threatened,but given the Japanese were now clearly insane a sizable number of Red Army formations was kept in the Far East,even during WW2 in Europe,these formations provided some manpower to later European operations but on the whole they remained a considerable force that could have answered any half-hearted effort Japan could have made against the USSR,seeing as the bulk of the Japanese manpower was tied down across Asia.

4.Germany is gone.
Now Stalin figures that he can do some proper land grabbing in the East seeing as the US is still advancing on Japan at a snails pace and China doesnt seem to be getting its act together anytime soon.
The Red Army,fresh from its war with the Wehrmacht,smashed the Japanese with relative ease,at which point the Americans panic and drop some nukes on Japan to intimidate the USSR,while accepting the Japanese surrender condition of maintaining the Emperor,the same condition Japan was offering before the nukes dropped.
Japan at this point knew it was doomed even without the nukes seeing as the USSR had in one strike removed their entire empire from them.

5.Japan has surrendered.
Now that Japan is no longer a threat,and the US is already demonstrating some landgrabby tendencies in Korea Stalin feels he can make sure there is no threat of a pro-American Far East.
To this end Stalin simply gives help to the Chinese communists who manage to rally most of China behind them and expel the KMT from the mainland.

After this is all said and done the only thing left for Stalin was to consolidate his grip on his new acquisitions,troll the capitalists in places like Berlin and then later lend some token support in various places like Korea to ensure he could never end up in the situation he was in in 1941.

Nice summary but I think you miss the foundation of the juggernaut anti-Soviet alliance of Germany-Japan started in 1935 and signed in Oct 1936 as Anti-Comintern Pact.
Stalin at any time never misunderstood the hostile of Hitler. As early as Hitler took power in 1933 he canceled all previous German-USSR cooperation and take prison of all German communists. After all if one need more proof one just need to listen to German propaganda or read Hitler's own book "Mein Kampf" to see USSR was the target of Nazi.

That's why Soviet is the first to fight against Fascism, in 1936 in Spain and in China (they send help, aircrafts and pilots). The first major Axis defeat is Khalkhin Gol with 60 000 Japanese casualties and hundred of aircraft and tanks.

Most of Stalin's actions and Soviet diplomacy should be understood in the context against both Germany-Japanese alliance, not just Germany or Japanese.

 

[Czert]

Soviet policy during WW2 can simply be called Stalin's policy,since he was the only one who got to decide on the matter.

I will lay out what i feel happened of relevance during that period and Stalin's motivations.

In Europe:

1.Rise of fascism.
Stalin didnt see fascism as a serious issue to begin with,after all having some Italians and Germans feeling patriotic wasnt exactly a threat to him.
But when things started heating up he decided to take action to try and contain them.
This was most clear during the Spanish Civil War where Stalin provided a lot of help to the Republicans while the French and British happily ignored the whole affair.

2.Stalin offered the French an anti-German alliance which they declined.
Following this Stalin decided that if he couldnt expect help fighting a war he may as well get help not fighting one,so he made an agreement with Hitler,the deal seemed good enough to Stalin,just grab most of East Europe while the Germans and Allies butcher each other in a rerun of WW1.

3.The Germans wreck everyone.
At this point Stalin started feeling a little uneasy,his idea of the imperialists bleeding each other white didnt work out the way he,or anyone else for that matter,expected.
As such Stalin is now in full appeasement mode towards Adolf hoping to consolidate the new gains and equip the Red Army with newer toys while Germany finishes off Britain.
Surely attacking the USSR while fighting the largest empire on earth would be madness,right?

4.Germany attacks the USSR.
At this point Stalin is probably given up on trying to roleplay Nostradamus,only thing really left is to fight this existential war to the end,and afterwards every nation that helped Germany,or was to weak to stop it,will simply have to be put under Soviet "protection" to ensure that such a disaster is never again experienced by Russia.

In Asia:

1.Before Japanese invasion.
Stalin was content to meddle a bit in Western China and keep an eye on the Japanese,but for the most part he showed little care for the place,after all there really wasnt anything of special worth there to begin with,apart from a fragmented China in the process of murdering itself.

2.Japanese invasion.
Since Japan was rampaging through China the USSR had 2 options.
1.It could grab some bits of China that were worth nothing.
2.Prop up China to bleed the Japanese and allow the USSR to remain secure in the Far East.
Like in the Spanish Civil War,here once again Stalin was the only one willing to provide real support to the victims of the soon-to-be Axis,if for no other reason than not want to have to deal with anyone hostile empire's near him.

3.Japan goes crazy and attacks everyone.
At this point Stalin had already fought off the Japanese incursions into Soviet territory and was continuing to help the Chinese,with Japan now tied up in China and the entire Pacific there was little risk of the Soviet Far East being threatened,but given the Japanese were now clearly insane a sizable number of Red Army formations was kept in the Far East,even during WW2 in Europe,these formations provided some manpower to later European operations but on the whole they remained a considerable force that could have answered any half-hearted effort Japan could have made against the USSR,seeing as the bulk of the Japanese manpower was tied down across Asia.

4.Germany is gone.
Now Stalin figures that he can do some proper land grabbing in the East seeing as the US is still advancing on Japan at a snails pace and China doesnt seem to be getting its act together anytime soon.
The Red Army,fresh from its war with the Wehrmacht,smashed the Japanese with relative ease,at which point the Americans panic and drop some nukes on Japan to intimidate the USSR,while accepting the Japanese surrender condition of maintaining the Emperor,the same condition Japan was offering before the nukes dropped.
Japan at this point knew it was doomed even without the nukes seeing as the USSR had in one strike removed their entire empire from them.

5.Japan has surrendered.
Now that Japan is no longer a threat,and the US is already demonstrating some landgrabby tendencies in Korea Stalin feels he can make sure there is no threat of a pro-American Far East.
To this end Stalin simply gives help to the Chinese communists who manage to rally most of China behind them and expel the KMT from the mainland.

After this is all said and done the only thing left for Stalin was to consolidate his grip on his new acquisitions,troll the capitalists in places like Berlin and then later lend some token support in various places like Korea to ensure he could never end up in the situation he was in in 1941.

europe
1.agree, rise of fasiscm was theat to other nations, which was greatly ignored by france and uk, and that help for republicans in spain, it was two edged weapon,yes, it helped them to fight natinalists, but for return they tried to change republican goverment to commies dictatorship
and there were other nations which regognized theat of fascim/nazism, like czechs

2. yes, he tried to form aliance with west and failed because of western reactions, mayby because they remebered soviet export of revolutions and feared that he will try same thing in thier countries if they sign aliance.
and while his desperate search of alies can explain aliance with hitler, it still dont create justification for ocupation of poland, baltic states and winter war.

3. well, stalins deal with hitler greatly helped him to wreck rest of europe, and yes, invading of ussr will be madnes by germans, but yet, this fail to expain why he ordered order no.2 which forbade any resistanc e to initial german invasion.

4.well, reason why stalin failed to form aliance with other states was mainly because of him and his style of rule, and that not every state later liked to have commies regime instaled.

asia
1. nothing to add

2. well, that not entirely truth, nationalist china did recived a lot of help from west, later even from us (which were still in thier isolationists stance), and actualy soviet help to commies forces was smaller than western one.
remember there was avg - american volunter group, made of us made planes with us pilots figting in china, before japanese ph attack and us entry to war.
and after us entry to war, us help to china was unparaled to anything before.

3. you have truth that in far east soviets did have considerable forces, but after signing of non-agresion pact with japanese, and by confiming by soviet spy in japan, richard sorge, that japs will not atack at all, started to remove forces from asia and moved them to europe, even before barbarosa hapened.

4. from your coment i asumune you are comenting situation short time before japanese capitulated. so let me point some things to you
a)you are totaly correct in that japs did have considerable forces in manchuria and korea, but thats all, in china they were hopelesly losing
b)at that time japan did hold very few of thier 41 conquets (like singapore), and lost praticaly everthing outside mainland from thier pre war ownerships. okinawa was most imporatnt from them
c)japanese navy was praticaly reduced to davy jones locker visitors, with only few ships still floating, and yes, that included mecrhant navy too, not only warships.
d) before droping of nuke, there was still major resistance to surender and will to continue hopeless war, after nukes droped, this resistance ceased to exist.
and yes, americans realized that they need to keep emperor at seat, unless they want to do land invasion.
e)even whensoviets were powerfull enough to conquer all manchuria in very short time, they didnt have power to conquer korea or to do any naval invasiol to even smalest island.
f)there is forever going disusion what was major contibution of breaking willpower to resist to surender by japs, if it was droping of nukes, losing of manchuria or booth combined.
g) yeah, droping of nukes was political tool agains soviets too, after all everyone knowed that they will be no longer friends after WW2 will end.

5. yeah, stalins play in china was masterpiece compared to west (us).

6. yeah, insignts to stalins thinking can explain many of things, but doesnt mean that all his decisions were based on reality or were reasonable at all.

 

[Czert]

That's because Fanstar1 went on a tangent with continuation war. If you read the entire discussion, you would have noticed.

Land wasn't exactly prime estate in both cases, and SU was willing to pay, provide trade incentives, etc.
Incidents were many - shots fired at border guards doing their rounds by Finns, Poles, Japanese, support of anti-soviet terror groups by Poles. Hell, first Finnish prime minister declared "Any enemy of Russia must be always a friend of Finland".

well, my coment was meaned to encourage you to do similiar report for pre winter war incidents.and not just generaly speaking.

and again, any real examples of finnes, poles provocations/incidents ? no need about japanese ones, just focus on europe now.

and for finish prime minister words..well, do you wonder them ? after all, all soviets fiddling in internal finnish politik earlier was not forgoten.

 

[Anatur]

and while his desperate search of alies can explain aliance with hitler, it still dont create justification for ocupation of poland, baltic states and winter war.

Given that Hitler was devouring everything within reach Stalin could have logically deduced that the only way to keep nations out of Axis grasp was to take them himself.
After all it was the case in 1941 that the only European nations bordering the USSR that didnt attack it were the ones Stalin had outright annexed.

ut yet, this fail to expain why he ordered order no.2 which forbade any resistanc e to initial german invasion.

Stalin was desperate to avoid escalation,as such he feared the Germans might cause provocations on the border,given the German shenanigans with Polish uniforms it was far from an unfounded fear.
As such the easiest way to avoid escalation is to simply order everyone facing the Germans to not shoot at them,this naturally backfired horribly when the Germans launched their surprise attack.

4.well, reason why stalin failed to form aliance with other states was mainly because of him and his style of rule, and that not every state later liked to have commies regime instaled.

After the bloodbath of WW2 i doubt Stalin or anyone in Russia for that matter trusted any country West of them enough to give them any sort of independence.

While Stalin was certainly authoritarian he was however able to cooperate with other nations without utterly dominating them,provided said nations werent in his way,like the Koumintang or post-WW2 Finland.

2. well, that not entirely truth, nationalist china did recived a lot of help from west, later even from us (which were still in thier isolationists stance), and actualy soviet help to commies forces was smaller than western one.
remember there was avg - american volunter group, made of us made planes with us pilots figting in china, before japanese ph attack and us entry to war.
and after us entry to war, us help to china was unparaled to anything before.

Stalin wasnt offering much help to the Communists,the bulk of it went to the Nationalists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_Non-Aggression_Pact

At first the treaty led to improving relations between the Kuomintang, Chiang Kai-shek's government and the USSR. Following the signing of the pact, the Soviet Union began sending aircraft to the Chinese national government in Operation Zet, as well as economic aid to help stave off Japanese occupation. Chiang hoped this was a precursor to Soviet intervention into the war, however as time passed he soon realized that the USSR was constricted in what aid it could actually provide, due to not wanting to upset the tacit alliance with Britain, France, and later the United States, who favored China in the war but, would back Japan against the USSR in order to weaken both.

Nice to know that Western communist phobia was silly even before WW2.

3. you have truth that in far east soviets did have considerable forces, but after signing of non-agresion pact with japanese, and by confiming by soviet spy in japan, richard sorge, that japs will not atack at all, started to remove forces from asia and moved them to europe, even before barbarosa hapened.

They did move troops,i think around 300,000 of them,to European battlefields.
I just wanted to emphasize that significant forces still existed in the region because its somewhat common for many people to fantasize about some magical Japanese backstab of the USSR.
Such a thing was extremely unlikely due to both the Soviet armies still present in the Far East,and due to the strain the Japanese Army had fighting across China.

a)you are totaly correct in that japs did have considerable forces in manchuria and korea, but thats all, in china they were hopelesly losing

b)at that time japan did hold very few of thier 41 conquets (like singapore), and lost praticaly everthing outside mainland from thier pre war ownerships. okinawa was most imporatnt from them

They didnt lose that much at all,the Soviets inflicted the most decisive damage destroying their last uncommitted armies together with their last intact industrial and resource base:

c)japanese navy was praticaly reduced to davy jones locker visitors, with only few ships still floating, and yes, that included mecrhant navy too, not only warships.

They could still improvise some form of transportation along the coastlines and from Korea to Japan,which was the last lifeline they were counting on to keep resisting the Allies before the Soviets took it away.

e)even whensoviets were powerfull enough to conquer all manchuria in very short time, they didnt have power to conquer korea or to do any naval invasiol to even smalest island.

The Soviet offensive into Korea only slowed down due to logistics finally reaching their breaking point,the moment the Soviets rolled up more supplies they would happily continue on.
The Japanese were simply nowhere near strong enough to contest the Red Army which had 4 years experience fighting total war with the Wehrmacht,a military which made the Japanese look like tribal bushmen in terms of technology,training and doctrine.

Also the Soviets did take islands,the situation was helped further by the Japanese focusing the bulk of their Home Island forces in anticipation of the American landings,on the opposite side of said islands.

You can see the above map to show Soviet operations in the islands.

f)there is forever going disusion what was major contibution of breaking willpower to resist to surender by japs, if it was droping of nukes, losing of manchuria or booth combined.

Given Japan was completely unphased by the Americans fire bombing every city in Japan i doubt the nukes impressed them that much,especially since the Americans had to go out of their way to find cities that werent destroy to nuke.

The Soviet invasion removed any hope of a mediated peace as well as cutting Japan off from its empire,thus rendering their defeat not only very likely,but inevitable.

Stalin himself probably played a part in it,since the Japanese understood that while the Americans or British might grow tired of war,Stalin couldnt care less how many of his men would die fighting the Japanese,thus rendering the whole "exhaust them with fierce resistance until they give up" line of thinking pointless.

g) yeah, droping of nukes was political tool agains soviets too, after all everyone knowed that they will be no longer friends after WW2 will end.

A political tool that was ultimately pointless for that purpose since Stalin had spies in the Manhattan project and knew about the nukes already.

5. yeah, stalins play in china was masterpiece compared to west (us).

Given how bad the Koumintang was there wasnt much the US could have done on its end,the Chinese made their own decision on who to side with,and neither superpower could have hoped to oppose said decision on the ground.

6. yeah, insignts to stalins thinking can explain many of things, but doesnt mean that all his decisions were based on reality or were reasonable at all.

I fully agree that many of Stalin's decisions were misguided or silly in handsight but understanding the historical context can shed more light on them and make them more understandable,if not justifiable.

 

[Czert]

No Anchlus, no Munich Conference, no stalling by west during alliance talks in summer of 1939 = no war at all. SU got tired of betrayals by colonial powers, and decided on a different strategy.

How naive can you be? Poland, at that point, was no longer a threat, but Germany was. Poland flatly refused an alliance with SU - "better death than dishonor". SU stopped acting in interests of everyone else, and started acting in its self-interests. THAT'S what you cannot forgive.

Just to show, that NOBODY is innocent little lamb. Yet people argue, that they are innocent, and everyone else is the bad guy. Well guess what - everyone is a shade of gray, no one is black, no one is white.

Did you miss the part, where I said it was a guessing game, like the lottery? Soviet Intelligence was reporting, that less than 50% of Wehrmacht was poised East. How could they be sure of reports by Red Capelle? A lot of their reports were false. That's the thing about intelligence. There is no source you can trust 100%. As for what SU was doing - it was increasing the Red Army by covert means. Like the big training exercise, for which they called up 800,000 reservists in May-June, transferred a lot of units from their home bases deep within the country closer to the western border, etc.

Why did US invade Iraq in 2003? WMDs? US lied about those. Should we not nuke US for a blatant act of aggression for NO REAL REASON WHATSOEVER?

Finland was making 10 times the number of airfields they had planes for in 1930s. Finland government was propagating Great Finland ideas. Finland was talking to every power hostile to SU with war in mind. That's the proof.

Yes, Soviets acted way better then Finns, or Germans, or Romanians or Hungarians. No wholesale murders of civilians by Red Army were reported. "2 million rapes in Germany" was number extrapolated by number of reported and PUNISHED rapes in Berlin in something like a 10 day period, by scaling it to entire East Germany. Red Army soldiers were punished for barbaric behavior, unlike Axis powers (and I include Finland here too).

I absolutely do. Finns didn't have the manpower for prolonged war - they mobilized 18% of their population for Barbarossa, hence no more advances.
What reason did Italians or Hungarians have in participating in Barbarossa? Yet they did. Germans designed a provocation, with soviet-made planes sold to Czechoslovakia used in bombing runs against Hungary to give it an excuse for joining, what makes you think they would not have done something similar with Finland?

1. well, failing to do western aliance , can expain why stalin seeked aliance with hitler, still it fail to justify partioning of poland or winter war, or ocupiing of baltic states.

2. no, im not naive at all, and i know that soviet-polish aliance alliance was very unlikely due to 1920-22 war, but still soviets could still opt to use poland as buffer zone, instead of spliting it up and eliminating that buffer zone completly. independent poland is way better zone, than poland splited up between germany and soviets, with way smaller buffer zone ocupied by soviets. and what you meaned with this "SU stopped acting in interests of everyone else, and started acting in its self-interests." ? didnt attempts to create aliance with west in interest of soviets too ? how that (unformed) aliance was more burden to soviets than profit ? if it was former, then why they tried to create it at all ?

4, i never told that fins were saints, but demanding that YOU show some examples of these are needed, because they are very unknown to most, unlike e.q conflicks in soviet-japan borders, so no one will call you to prove them.

5. no, i didnt mised your part of that it is quesing game, just wanted to know why it failed so miserably. and it looks that you mised with this "Soviet Intelligence was reporting, that less than 50% of Wehrmacht was poised East" OFFICIAL stalins question to hitler why are so much forces, majority of wehrmacht, amased at soviets borders. and that hitlers reply was they need place to train for invasion of englad.
np with secret mobilization, but why the hell stalin isued order no2 which FORBID armed resistance to initial german invasion.

6.i can just turn head about your reply, you totaly avoided question. but i will reply to your, yes us invasion in 2003 to iraq was unjistifed and did under false pretedence, same way as soviets did in winter war.
and yet, reply to my question - should have us right to nuke/bomb/invade russia based only option of few politicks about situation at ukraine ?

7. no that not proof at all, actualy it is proof of selfdefence, building of FIELD airports is actual proof of preparing for defence, just look at czechs in 38 - they builded in 38 alone nearly 9 times more field airports that they did have peacetime/permanent airports, mostly at slovakia, so yeah, buletproof proof that they planed invasion of hungaria.
and yet you still FAILED to provide anything to back up your claim that fins were planing antisoviet aliance with anyone, other that "because i say so".

8. did soviets generaly behaved better than germans ? sure. better than finns, romanians or others ? im not sure.
i know about situations in which soviets were not punished for severe crime at all (rape, murder), and otoh about situtions in which they were shot for just small missbehavior.

9. just looooooooooooooooooooooool, you showed realy big logic falacy there. why huns and roms joined barbarosa ? because they were in ALIANCE with germany before war with soviets started. did you missed that knowlnge ?
same for italians, italians did send thier airforce against england too, so how is that different from sending help against soviets ?
and for finns, you showed greatest ignoracy, because before winter war, finns didnt were in aliance with germany, they joined it after winter war.
so again, what you have to suport your claim that finns will join barbarosa without it ?
and to use your response more against you, dont you think that same manpower limits which affected finns during continuation war, are practicaly same as they did have before winter war ? so why they should plan war against soviets, especialy if they dont have any strong ally to back up them ? unlike in continuation war.

10. WHAAAAAAAAAT ???
"Germans designed a provocation, with soviet-made planes sold to Czechoslovakia used in bombing runs against Hungary to give it an excuse for joining"
this is pure nonsece, and to be honest, it is first time i heard about this. hungary was allready in german aliance, so no real reason to do that or anything similiar.

 

[Czert]

The conspiracy theory about "Neutral Finland" is outright bizzare. It may have passed as wartime propaganda, but with all of today's information, to cling to it is absurd. Going no further than wikipedia:

So Finland was fully commited to going to war
.
.
.
.

well, firstly, things that we know today is one thing, what was known to soviets in 41 is second thing. sure, they knowed about plane flyovers and some naval actions, but did they have any clue about german land forces or cooperation ?
secondly, main topic was about winter war, and if is justifable by soviets or not.
thirdly, after winter war happened, it was nearly certain that continuation war will hapen. question was only when and with whom.

 

[Czert]

Nice summary but I think you miss the foundation of the juggernaut anti-Soviet alliance of Germany-Japan started in 1935 and signed in Oct 1936 as Anti-Comintern Pact.
Stalin at any time never misunderstood the hostile of Hitler. As early as Hitler took power in 1933 he canceled all previous German-USSR cooperation and take prison of all German communists. After all if one need more proof one just need to listen to German propaganda or read Hitler's own book "Mein Kampf" to see USSR was the target of Nazi.

That's why Soviet is the first to fight against Fascism, in 1936 in Spain and in China (they send help, aircrafts and pilots). The first major Axis defeat is Khalkhin Gol with 60 000 Japanese casualties and hundred of aircraft and tanks.

Most of Stalin's actions and Soviet diplomacy should be understood in the context against both Germany-Japanese alliance, not just Germany or Japanese.

no, stalin didnt canceled german-soviet cooperation, he changed it. from secret training of german soldiers in su, and manufatrue of weapons there, to more normal technical cooperation.
remeber, first german tanks were desiggned and build at soviet union. even legendary heinz guderian did get first tank experinces with german tanks in soviet union, not in germany.
and german-soviet economic cooperation was great, just few months before barbarosa was soviet delegation visting german tank factory, soviets delegates were unhapy, because they belived that factory leaders dont how them latest models, and resist hitler order , becase all they sow was just little modernized tanks from polish and france campaigns.
nothing similiar to t-34 or more specificaly, anything to stand against kv-1. which germans have no idea they exists.

sure, main kampf was nice proof of planed german expansion, but that dont change fatc that soviets did helped it a lot. most important was soviet oil, which was delivered in larger amounts than romanian oil.

and again, soviet atempts to prepare against axis dont justify partioning of poland with germany (why to strengten your expecteed enemy?), ocupiing of baltic states and winter war.

 

[Anatur]

1. well, failing to do western aliance , can expain why stalin seeked aliance with hitler, still it fail to justify partioning of poland or winter war, or ocupiing of baltic states.

It does if you consider from Stalin's point of view that Germany would just take the rest of Poland and ally the other nations against the USSR.
As such safest option is to grab them while Germany is busy fighting Britain and France.

2. no, im not naive at all, and i know that soviet-polish aliance alliance was very unlikely due to 1920-22 war, but still soviets could still opt to use poland as buffer zone, instead of spliting it up and eliminating that buffer zone completly. independent poland is way better zone, than poland splited up between germany and soviets, with way smaller buffer zone ocupied by soviets. and what you meaned with this "SU stopped acting in interests of everyone else, and started acting in its self-interests." ? didnt attempts to create aliance with west in interest of soviets too ? how that (unformed) aliance was more burden to soviets than profit ? if it was former, then why they tried to create it at all ?

To be fair Poland was utterly irrational and full of victory disease by 1939.

It had discriminated every bordering nation it had in one war or another to the point where they didnt look much better than Hitler,from a 1939 perspective anyways.

np with secret mobilization, but why the hell stalin isued order no2 which FORBID armed resistance to initial german invasion.

Because he wanted to avoid any escalation and allow the British and Germans to bleed each other as much as possible while the Red Army amassed more equipment,trained more men,relocated defensive lines and consolidated recent gains.

Germany had already done shady stuff like dressing up as Polish troops so it wasnt unreasonable to just have a clear "dont shoot" order under such circumstances.

i know about situations in which soviets were not punished for severe crime at all (rape, murder), and otoh about situtions in which they were shot for just small missbehavior.

In terms of war crimes there is plenty of blame to go around including Allied misconduct in the rhineland and occupation japan,as such the Soviets cant be blamed too much for such things,especially given how large their army was compared to other participants.

secondly, main topic was about winter war, and if is justifable by soviets or not.

I dont think the Soviets demanding a land swap with Finland was that unreasonable.

If anything the Soviets were being nice by even offering such a proposal,given the sheer disparity in size and power.

Finland was after all a renegade province of the old Russian Empire,no different than Ukraine or Belarus,as such the Soviets could have legitimately gone after its total destruction had they felt so inclined.

Not to mention the Allies themselves did a lot of shady stuff like ripping apart Persia for the sake of easier logistics.

and again, soviet atempts to prepare against axis dont justify partioning of poland with germany (why to strengten your expecteed enemy?), ocupiing of baltic states and winter war.

Like i said before,it makes sense in terms of a grander picture of a potential war with Germany.

While Germany is fighting the Allies the USSR can afford to make some deals to better prepare,shortening the front line,covering the flanks,preparing defensive lines.
All these things are reasonable actions in the face of a potential war with the Third Reich.
Not to mention it was proven later on that the USSR couldnt trust any nation that bordered it,a prime example being the Hungarians,Croats and Italians fighting on the Soviet front despite not even bordering the USSR.

As such the only safe option was to eat as much territory before Hitler could get his hands on it.

And im sure the East Polish jews were at least thankful they got to be in the Soviet occupation zone rather than the German one.

 

[Czert]

Given that Hitler was devouring everything within reach Stalin could have logically deduced that the only way to keep nations out of Axis grasp was to take them himself.
After all it was the case in 1941 that the only European nations bordering the USSR that didnt attack it were the ones Stalin had outright annexed.

well, expansion of germans doesnt justify expansion of su. and i dont think that anexed nations by su viewed it as protection from germans.

Stalin was desperate to avoid escalation,as such he feared the Germans might cause provocations on the border,given the German shenanigans with Polish uniforms it was far from an unfounded fear.
As such the easiest way to avoid escalation is to simply order everyone facing the Germans to not shoot at them,this naturally backfired horribly when the Germans launched their surprise attack.

well, maby you didnt noticed, but there is "small" difference between shoting of few troops, small scale clash of multiple units in limited area and just advancing of whole wermacht around whole borders. when you have multiple clashes and invasion at whole borders - and they were realy long - it cant be mistaken for just situation in which few troops just over reacted.

and that reminded my of old joke - stalin after he is informed that german troops crosed over 200 km to soviet teritory, send him telegram with text "if you dont stop, will will take it more serious and begin to mobilize and no longer consdider this as just border incident".

After the bloodbath of WW2 i doubt Stalin or anyone in Russia for that matter trusted any country West of them enough to give them any sort of independence.

While Stalin was certainly authoritarian he was however able to cooperate with other nations without utterly dominating them,provided said nations werent in his way,like the Koumintang or post-WW2 Finland.

well, justifiying pupeting of other natations by fearing of own security is thugs logic, not action of civilized state.

Stalin wasnt offering much help to the Communists,the bulk of it went to the Nationalists:

well, he send his help to nationalist only by necesarity, not by liking. he didnt have direct acces to commies, but it changed after WW2 ended, so he was very happy to help commies to win there.

Nice to know that Western communist phobia was silly even before WW2.

i never denied that . but you must agree with that they have reasons why to not like commies and especialy stalin.

They didnt lose that much at all,the Soviets inflicte37d the most decisive damage destroying their last uncommitted armies together with their last intact industrial and resource base:

yes, in manchuko was largest japan land army, even bigger than on japanese mainland, but it was just impresion by numbers, troops there very poor equiped (well, at that time no japanese unit was equiped better than poor), with none anti tank weapons, and by troops which were unfit to serve elsewhere.
they vere exact oposite of elite units stationed there in 37.

and when you look at map, you see that japs practicaly everywhere - minus indochina - were well beyond thiers 37 borders. and indochina was important for japs only as resource base, especialy oil. and since they didnt have means to transport resources from there, it was practicaly same for them as they didnt holded them.
yes, from political viewpoint, it will be smarted to firstly liberate this area and then invade japs main islands, but that will prolong war.

They could still improvise some form of transportation along the coastlines and from Korea to Japan,which was the last lifeline they were counting on to keep resisting the Allies before the Soviets took it away.

improvise transport ? by which ? sail ships which used brits in 40 to evacuate forces from dunqerke ? and even if they manage to do some scrap transport, it still will be trincke, unable to change anything.

The Soviet offensive into Korea only slowed down due to logistics finally reaching their breaking point,the moment the Soviets rolled up more supplies they would happily continue on.
The Japanese were simply nowhere near strong enough to contest the Red Army which had 4 years experience fighting total war with the Wehrmacht,a military which made the Japanese look like tribal bushmen in terms of technology,training and doctrine.

Also the Soviets did take islands,the situation was helped further by the Japanese focusing the bulk of their Home Island forces in anticipation of the American landings,on the opposite side of said islands.

You can see the above map to show Soviet operations in the islands.

wow, soviet advance stoped because of logicstic reasons, and us slowed down because us wanted to prolong war, amazing logic.
or mayby us slow down in conqiring of japan teritory because of logistic, and unlike soviets which should bring supplies from europe in one week , it taken literary months to arive at front from us mainland, not to speak about all this naval transport was way more resources demanding than just transport by rail for soviets.

and for soviets islands camapigns, well, did kurils were even defended at all ? and for sachain, since they hold half of that island before it was very easy to transport troops and ressources there in preparation for battle, no amphibious op needed.

Given Japan was completely unphased by the Americans fire bombing every city in Japan i doubt the nukes impressed them that much,especially since the Americans had to go out of their way to find cities that werent destroy to nuke.

The Soviet invasion removed any hope of a mediated peace as well as cutting Japan off from its empire,thus rendering their defeat not only very likely,but inevitable.

Stalin himself probably played a part in it,since the Japanese understood that while the Americans or British might grow tired of war,Stalin couldnt care less how many of his men would die fighting the Japanese,thus rendering the whole "exhaust them with fierce resistance until they give up" line of thinking pointless.

yes, firebombing didnt broken japanese fighting spirit, same as bombing didnt broken spirit of brits, germans or any other nation. but yeah, nuking DID have a very big impresion, if you read memories or survivors of this apocalypse, you will find that they were trully terrified by what they saw and experienced.
and dont forget, in these cities did lived persons evacuated there from firebombed cities.

any japanese hope on any forces outside main islands was fools hope, since they didnt have posibility to bring them home to help with defence, or that need to root them out will persuade allies to cancel invasion to main islands.

and japs hope on that that us will be tired out, was based on what ? other than fools hope ? they didnt gived up in 42, didnt stoped in 44, and still keeped going on after iwo jima and okinawa.

A political tool that was ultimately pointless for that purpose since Stalin had spies in the Manhattan project and knew about the nukes already.

yes, stalin did knowed that nukes exists, but did have tools to produce them, and that was main point. to show him - dear comrade stalin, do you feel warmongering and in mood of exporting of commies revolution ? we have something to make your head to cool off.
and nuking of japs, was undeaniable proof that they have them working, and more than one.

 

[Opanashc]

well, expansion of germans doesnt justify expansion of su. and i dont think that anexed nations by su viewed it as protection from germans.

If you claim, that Finland was justified in getting back territories it lost in 40, we can claim, that SU was justified in getting back territory lost in 1920.

well, maby you didnt noticed, but there is "small" difference between shoting of few troops, small scale clash of multiple units in limited area and just advancing of whole wermacht around whole borders. when you have multiple clashes and invasion at whole borders - and they were realy long - it cant be mistaken for just situation in which few troops just over reacted.

Maybe you didn't notice, but you cannot tell what is happening 5 km from you, and whether this is a local provocation, or full blown invasion.

well, justifiying pupeting of other natations by fearing of own security is thugs logic, not action of civilized state.

Good, we can now legitimately claim that UK, France and USA are thug states with their puppeting of Philippines, Iraq and Syria. SU had ample company of western nations.

well, he send his help to nationalist only by necesarity, not by liking. he didnt have direct acces to commies, but it changed after WW2 ended, so he was very happy to help commies to win there.

SU started helping nationalists back in mid-1920s, before they decided to split with the communists.

i never denied that . but you must agree with that they have reasons why to not like commies and especialy stalin.

Just like SU and Stalin had reasons not to like them, with their goals of carving up Russia even before communists appeared on the scene as a serious power. One of british ministers had said "Good, one goal of this war is achieved" when he learned of Czar's abdication, and they were allies!

wow, soviet advance stoped because of logicstic reasons, and us slowed down because us wanted to prolong war, amazing logic.
or mayby us slow down in conqiring of japan teritory because of logistic, and unlike soviets which should bring supplies from europe in one week , it taken literary months to arive at front from us mainland, not to speak about all this naval transport was way more resources demanding than just transport by rail for soviets.

I guess you don't know, that sea transport is the CHEAPEST way to transport goods, ton per mile.

and for soviets islands camapigns, well, did kurils were even defended at all ? and for sachain, since they hold half of that island before it was very easy to transport troops and ressources there in preparation for battle, no amphibious op needed.

Something like a third of SU KIA in war with Japan was on the Kuril islands.

yes, firebombing didnt broken japanese fighting spirit, same as bombing didnt broken spirit of brits, germans or any other nation. but yeah, nuking DID have a very big impresion, if you read memories or survivors of this apocalypse, you will find that they were trully terrified by what they saw and experienced.
and dont forget, in these cities did lived persons evacuated there from firebombed cities.

Nothing really changed - US was destroying Japanese cities virtually unopposed.

yes, stalin did knowed that nukes exists, but did have tools to produce them, and that was main point. to show him - dear comrade stalin, do you feel warmongering and in mood of exporting of commies revolution ? we have something to make your head to cool off.
and nuking of japs, was undeaniable proof that they have them working, and more than one.

It wasn't Stalin who came up with plans like Operation Unthinkable, was it now?

 

[Fanstar1]

If you claim, that Finland was justified in getting back territories it lost in 40, we can claim, that SU was justified in getting back territory lost in 1920.

Maybe you didn't notice, but you cannot tell what is happening 5 km from you, and whether this is a local provocation, or full blown invasion.

Good, we can now legitimately claim that UK, France and USA are thug states with their puppeting of Philippines, Iraq and Syria. SU had ample company of western nations.

SU started helping nationalists back in mid-1920s, before they decided to split with the communists.

Just like SU and Stalin had reasons not to like them, with their goals of carving up Russia even before communists appeared on the scene as a serious power. One of british ministers had said "Good, one goal of this war is achieved" when he learned of Czar's abdication, and they were allies!

I guess you don't know, that sea transport is the CHEAPEST way to transport goods, ton per mile.

Something like a third of SU KIA in war with Japan was on the Kuril islands.


Nothing really changed - US was destroying Japanese cities virtually unopposed.


It wasn't Stalin who came up with plans like Operation Unthinkable, was it now?

what lost territory? by time SU was formed Finland was independent, as the people of finland wanted after over a century of oppression from Russia.

 

[Fanstar1]

well, expansion of germans doesnt justify expansion of su. and i dont think that anexed nations by su viewed it as protection from germans.



well, maby you didnt noticed, but there is "small" difference between shoting of few troops, small scale clash of multiple units in limited area and just advancing of whole wermacht around whole borders. when you have multiple clashes and invasion at whole borders - and they were realy long - it cant be mistaken for just situation in which few troops just over reacted.

and that reminded my of old joke - stalin after he is informed that german troops crosed over 200 km to soviet teritory, send him telegram with text "if you dont stop, will will take it more serious and begin to mobilize and no longer consdider this as just border incident".



well, justifiying pupeting of other natations by fearing of own security is thugs logic, not action of civilized state.



well, he send his help to nationalist only by necesarity, not by liking. he didnt have direct acces to commies, but it changed after WW2 ended, so he was very happy to help commies to win there.



i never denied that . but you must agree with that they have reasons why to not like commies and especialy stalin.



yes, in manchuko was largest japan land army, even bigger than on japanese mainland, but it was just impresion by numbers, troops there very poor equiped (well, at that time no japanese unit was equiped better than poor), with none anti tank weapons, and by troops which were unfit to serve elsewhere.
they vere exact oposite of elite units stationed there in 37.

and when you look at map, you see that japs practicaly everywhere - minus indochina - were well beyond thiers 37 borders. and indochina was important for japs only as resource base, especialy oil. and since they didnt have means to transport resources from there, it was practicaly same for them as they didnt holded them.
yes, from political viewpoint, it will be smarted to firstly liberate this area and then invade japs main islands, but that will prolong war.


improvise transport ? by which ? sail ships which used brits in 40 to evacuate forces from dunqerke ? and even if they manage to do some scrap transport, it still will be trincke, unable to change anything.



wow, soviet advance stoped because of logicstic reasons, and us slowed down because us wanted to prolong war, amazing logic.
or mayby us slow down in conqiring of japan teritory because of logistic, and unlike soviets which should bring supplies from europe in one week , it taken literary months to arive at front from us mainland, not to speak about all this naval transport was way more resources demanding than just transport by rail for soviets.

and for soviets islands camapigns, well, did kurils were even defended at all ? and for sachain, since they hold half of that island before it was very easy to transport troops and ressources there in preparation for battle, no amphibious op needed.




yes, firebombing didnt broken japanese fighting spirit, same as bombing didnt broken spirit of brits, germans or any other nation. but yeah, nuking DID have a very big impresion, if you read memories or survivors of this apocalypse, you will find that they were trully terrified by what they saw and experienced.
and dont forget, in these cities did lived persons evacuated there from firebombed cities.

any japanese hope on any forces outside main islands was fools hope, since they didnt have posibility to bring them home to help with defence, or that need to root them out will persuade allies to cancel invasion to main islands.

and japs hope on that that us will be tired out, was based on what ? other than fools hope ? they didnt gived up in 42, didnt stoped in 44, and still keeped going on after iwo jima and okinawa.



yes, stalin did knowed that nukes exists, but did have tools to produce them, and that was main point. to show him - dear comrade stalin, do you feel warmongering and in mood of exporting of commies revolution ? we have something to make your head to cool off.
and nuking of japs, was undeaniable proof that they have them working, and more than one.

Philipines became puppet because of colonial war between US and Spain. Iraq and Syria were taken from ottoman empire after ww1.

 

[Opanashc]

what lost territory? by time SU was formed Finland was independent, as the people of finland wanted after over a century of oppression from Russia.

How about Vyborg, which definitely was part of Russian Empire before Finland was ceded by Sweden?

Philipines became puppet because of colonial war between US and Spain. Iraq and Syria were taken from ottoman empire after ww1.

And your point is? That it is okay, if it western countries doing it? That's called double standard. Basically, you are supporting racism if you say it is okay, and we should condemn SU for such actions, but not UK/France/USA.

 

[Cavalry]

and again, soviet atempts to prepare against axis dont justify partioning of poland with germany (why to strengten your expecteed enemy?), ocupiing of baltic states and winter war.

Who need a justified reason to prevent your country your people from a terrible war, especially 2 two- front war with the best armed powers in the world?

But there were actually a justified reason, all new gain territories is the old Russian Empire territory and people lost by force or by an agreement under forces.

At now , Ukraine, Byelorussia, Moldova,.. still see the territories and people as rightful of them and have no plan to return to the previous owners.

 

[Anatur]

well, expansion of germans doesnt justify expansion of su. and i dont think that anexed nations by su viewed it as protection from germans.

The point was protecting the USSR,what some renegade ex-russian provinces thought about it was entirely irrelevant,especially when it became obvious that they would turn against the USSR at first opportunity,which they did historically,repeatedly.

well, maby you didnt noticed, but there is "small" difference between shoting of few troops, small scale clash of multiple units in limited area and just advancing of whole wermacht around whole borders. when you have multiple clashes and invasion at whole borders - and they were realy long - it cant be mistaken for just situation in which few troops just over reacted.

The Soviet planers assumed that the German offensive would follow basic rules of logistics and artillery support if it happened,thus limiting any penetrations to a manageable degree until Soviet forces could be mobilized and sent to push them back.

As it turned out the Germans just rushed on ahead happily ignoring any form of worry about flanks or logistics or artillery support thus catching the Soviets off guard,but as it was shown later on this reckless approach to operations doomed them by the time they reached Moscow.

With this in mind the Soviets had no reason to believe there would be an invasion so soon,since Britain was still fighting and bombing Germany,not to mention the African front still being active.

well, justifiying pupeting of other natations by fearing of own security is thugs logic, not action of civilized state.

Then no great power on earth was civilized.

Lets not forget that certain defeated nations are puppeted by the USA to this very day.

i never denied that . but you must agree with that they have reasons why to not like commies and especialy stalin.

There are also many reasons why not to like corrupt imperialists who rampage across entire continents shattering civilizations for the sake of petty politics and profit.

improvise transport ? by which ? sail ships which used brits in 40 to evacuate forces from dunqerke ? and even if they manage to do some scrap transport, it still will be trincke, unable to change anything.

The only thing you really need is any sort of ship that can float.

Not to mention that ships can carry more stuff farther than any other type of transportation.

With this in mind keeping a link between Korea and Japan with improvised shipping was fully viable even under occasional Allied air attacks.

wow, soviet advance stoped because of logicstic reasons, and us slowed down because us wanted to prolong war, amazing logic.
or mayby us slow down in conqiring of japan teritory because of logistic, and unlike soviets which should bring supplies from europe in one week , it taken literary months to arive at front from us mainland, not to speak about all this naval transport was way more resources demanding than just transport by rail for soviets.

The US didnt slow down,it was literally hopping from one amphibious assault to another,necessitating large scale organization and logistical buildup for each assault.
The USSR on the other hand overran all of Manchuria and was pushing into Korea and China by the time it had to halt for its logistics to catch up.
The Japanese were shattered in Manchuria,there was nothing to stop the Soviets pressing further into Korea or China once they brought their logistics in other.

For emphasis the USSR deployed over 1.5 million men for the Manchuria offensive,this is far more than US logistics had to worry about in its island hopping.

Either way the Japanese forces in the Asian mainland were doomed.

and for soviets islands camapigns, well, did kurils were even defended at all ? and for sachain, since they hold half of that island before it was very easy to transport troops and ressources there in preparation for battle, no amphibious op needed.

The Japanese had 80,000 men in the Kuril islands,the Soviets were mounting amphibious invasions to take them and making reasonable progress.

yes, firebombing didnt broken japanese fighting spirit, same as bombing didnt broken spirit of brits, germans or any other nation. but yeah, nuking DID have a very big impresion, if you read memories or survivors of this apocalypse, you will find that they were trully terrified by what they saw and experienced.
and dont forget, in these cities did lived persons evacuated there from firebombed cities.

The civilians could be reasonably terrified but for some General reading daily reports of his cities getting flattened it didnt make much difference if 1 bomb did it or 1 armada of bombers,the US could quite happily continue demolishing Japan either way.

any japanese hope on any forces outside main islands was fools hope, since they didnt have posibility to bring them home to help with defence, or that need to root them out will persuade allies to cancel invasion to main islands.

The point was that the resources and supplies that could still be brought back to Japan would enable further resistance.

Not to mention that the simple existence of these vast territorial possessions gave Japan a bargaining chip in any negotiations for more lenient terms.

and japs hope on that that us will be tired out, was based on what ? other than fools hope ? they didnt gived up in 42, didnt stoped in 44, and still keeped going on after iwo jima and okinawa.

The Japanese plan was to fight to the death in the Japanese home islands,which were populated by around 100 million people,it wasnt that unreasonable to assume the Americans would eventually tire of the bloodbath and just let them go in return for their colonies and some other concessions.

yes, stalin did knowed that nukes exists, but did have tools to produce them, and that was main point. to show him - dear comrade stalin, do you feel warmongering and in mood of exporting of commies revolution ? we have something to make your head to cool off.
and nuking of japs, was undeaniable proof that they have them working, and more than one.

Except Stalin was the anti-export variant of revolution making.

The one who wanted to export the revolution was Trotsky.

Stalin only wanted to secure the USSR and the surrounding sphere of influence,and was quite content to not do much more than that.

As such unlike the USA which happily meddled across multiple continents,Stalin was content to stick to regions close to the USSR in Eurasia.

 

[Cavalry]

2. no, im not naive at all, and i know that soviet-polish aliance alliance was very unlikely due to 1920-22 war, but still soviets could still opt to use poland as buffer zone, instead of spliting it up and eliminating that buffer zone completly. independent poland is way better zone, than poland splited up between germany and soviets, with way smaller buffer zone ocupied by soviets. and what you meaned with this "SU stopped acting in interests of everyone else, and started acting in its self-interests." ? didnt attempts to create aliance with west in interest of soviets too ? how that (unformed) aliance was more burden to soviets than profit ? if it was former, then why they tried to create it at all ?.

Of course it will be much much better for the Soviet if Poland held against Germany. But Poland fell too fast and the West didn't do anything to save it before the eyes of the whole world. Stalin wanted Soviet troops held back as long as Poland can resist, but not too late and the Germany can enter Eastern Poland first. So Germany attacked on 1 Sep, Warsaw was encircled on 15 Sept and Soviet troop enter Poland two days later on 17 Sept. Also the Soviet can only fixed a non-aggression pact with Japan on 15 Sept.

Stalin never declared war to Poland, just an act to save Western Ukrainians and Belorussians so in theory Polish can get back all the land if they can drive the Germans away themselves!

 

[olm]

Stalin never declared war to Poland, just an act to save Western Ukrainians and Belorussians so in theory Polish can get back all the land if they can drive the Germans away themselves!

I have seen some "interesting" Stalin apologia before but this is something new.

 

[Czert]

I have seen some "interesting" Stalin apologia before but this is something new.

it is not new, it is how stalin justified invasion and this excuse is even today learning at russian schools.