Soviet National Focus needs some serious ballance

[paranoidsteve]

On watching the latest WWW I paused the stream and read the details of 'the great purge' for the Soviet Union (1.58 in WWW8). It seems to me that this focus will always result in the loss of the war by the Soviets if the Germans do an early attack. Or even if the Finns do one.

Most focus takes 70 days, this one takes 210 days.
it results in;
I , a series of show trials which purge (that is remove) ministers and military leaders ( names not supplied)
II, it removes Trotskyite plot ( not wanted due to severe industrial penalty)
III, it gives -5% to national unity
IV, all doctrine research speeds get -10%
V, Divisional Organization -50%

IV and V last for 1460 days...that is 4 years. If it is the first national focus the Russians do it wont lose its effects on divisional organization until autumn 1940. It is not as if Soviet divisions are blessed with great organization to start with.

 

[Denkt]

The org penalty seems a bit harsh but Soviet maybe get some very good focuses later in the game. The more powerful the Soviets are the harder it will be for the axis to have success and making Soviets to strong will probably destroy the game.

 

[RebelScum88]

I think the whole point to the purge is that the soviet player has to get it over with as quickly as possible, even before any industrial focuses to accurately simulate that aspect of the war. The longer the player delays the more certain that it will affect their war effort. The soviets are helped by the fact that it will take some time for Germany to be prepared for an invasion, and any smaller power like Finland simply doesnt have the numbers to beat them. i would say that at worst the soviets would have to face 6-12 months of those penalties in a war, after theyve been reduced by research and other NF

 

[TypicalRain]

I am surprised by 50% org lose. Seems extremely harsh. Maybe 10% max but a 50 or even 25% max planning bonus would fit better. This way the German and Finnish planning bonus would be a great help at first but after awhile into the operation their armies would be on more equal terms. It could also be that maybe it would be 50% org lose but it slowly ticks down instead of expiring on a certain date.

This is of course neglecting how silly it is to have one “Great purge” event when it really was a multi part operation that slowly included more and different people and government agencies. While being more realistic to have 4-6 small quick purge decision each with there own effects this probably isn’t done for game play balance.

 

[Praetori]

III, it gives -5% to national unity
IV, all doctrine research speeds get -10%
V, Divisional Organization -50%

IV and V last for 1460 days...that is 4 years. If it is the first national focus the Russians do it wont lose its effects on divisional organization until autumn 1940. It is not as if Soviet divisions are blessed with great organization to start with.

The Soviet army was a growing formidable and rapidly modernizing force in 36 that would've made Barbarossa fall flat on its face a lot sooner in 41 had the Red Army not been severly handicapped by the purge. I think the figures sound about right. In reality the purge and it's practical ramafucations in terms of the culture fostered in the Soviet armed forces as a result destroyed their entire ability to mount successful operations well into '42, when the dual (political) command structure was removed and the severity of the situation resulted in the new generation of commanders having a lot more freedom to act and were a lot less afraid of state reprisals.

 

[Opanashc]

The Soviet army was a growing formidable and rapidly modernizing force in 36 that would've made Barbarossa fall flat on its face a lot sooner in 41 had the Red Army not been severly handicapped by the purge. I think the figures sound about right. In reality the purge and it's practical ramafucations in terms of the culture fostered in the Soviet armed forces as a result destroyed their entire ability to mount successful operations well into '42, when the dual (political) command structure was removed and the severity of the situation resulted in the new generation of commanders having a lot more freedom to act and were a lot less afraid of state reprisals.

Purge. Cost the Red Arm 10,000 officers fired and not reinstated. Out of 80,000 that the Soviets had at the time. By 1941, there was a shortage of 80,000 officers even with shortened education times and such. It is simply mind boggling, how people believe, that a loss of $10,000 lead to fail of business when shortage was $80,000.
Dual command structure was eliminated in 1940, reinstated in 1941 after massive defeats. Learn some history.
People give USSR too much credit in the 1930s, giving it way too much power, and then trying to curb that power with different nerfs. Simply make USSR much weaker at the beginning of the game, but with a very dynamic development - and balance will be easier.

 

[Praetori]

Purge. Cost the Red Arm 10,000 officers fired and not reinstated. Out of 80,000 that the Soviets had at the time. By 1941, there was a shortage of 80,000 officers even with shortened education times and such. It is simply mind boggling, how people believe, that a loss of $10,000 lead to fail of business when shortage was $80,000.
Dual command structure was eliminated in 1940, reinstated in 1941 after massive defeats.

The main issue was not the low tier ranks but that the majority of brigade commanders and upwards were lost (one way or another) due to the purge. The Red Army didn't perform lousy on the tactical level to such a degree as much as it did on the operational and strategic level. That was a direct consequence of the purge since almost all commanders in high level postings had very little experience commanding larger units.
It's not like the Corps structure was abolished for fun after the invasion and army sizes vastly reduced to just a couple of divisions. It was out of necessity to give the new commanders a fighting chance. Though Russian sources (with a few exceptions) refuse to accept the connection even though the name and background of every higher ranking commander lost to the purge is available.

Regarding the dual command it's not me who needs to read up on history. The RVS councils were never abolished but transformed into the VS. That the commissar title was not used (for less than a year) means little for the actual conflict as it was reinstated in July 41, less than a month into Barbarossa to enact the military councils will in each unit. The de-facto dual command was present for the rest of 1941 and most of 1942 when the councils lost most of their influence due to the adverse results the Soviet forces had experienced.

 

[joe9594]

Dont know if anyone has mentioned this but I think the reason the focus takes that long is because the USSR is at war when you looked at that. All focuses are much slower at war and you can only do about 2 per year according to the devs so that is probably the normal time required to do any focus.

 

[jamesd]

Dont know if anyone has mentioned this but I think the reason the focus takes that long is because the USSR is at war when you looked at that. All focuses are much slower at war and you can only do about 2 per year according to the devs so that is probably the normal time required to do any focus.

That's not right at this point in time. That was what they said in the original DD on the subject but all through WWW its been 70 days regardless of war or peace. In the most recent WWW, soon after the effects of the Purge national focus was shown at 210 days, the mouse hovered over the SMERSH focus and it was 70 days.

 

[Opanashc]

The main issue was not the low tier ranks but that the majority of brigade commanders and upwards were lost (one way or another) due to the purge. The Red Army didn't perform lousy on the tactical level to such a degree as much as it did on the operational and strategic level. That was a direct consequence of the purge since almost all commanders in high level postings had very little experience commanding larger units.

Considering, that most of those lost got their experience in Russian Civil War, and failed to advance their skills further - I would not say the loss was all that great.

 

[svennnnnnnnnnnn]

On watching the latest WWW I paused the stream and read the details of 'the great purge' for the Soviet Union (1.58 in WWW8). It seems to me that this focus will always result in the loss of the war by the Soviets if the Germans do an early attack. Or even if the Finns do one.

Most focus takes 70 days, this one takes 210 days.
it results in;
I , a series of show trials which purge (that is remove) ministers and military leaders ( names not supplied)
II, it removes Trotskyite plot ( not wanted due to severe industrial penalty)
III, it gives -5% to national unity
IV, all doctrine research speeds get -10%
V, Divisional Organization -50%

IV and V last for 1460 days...that is 4 years. If it is the first national focus the Russians do it wont lose its effects on divisional organization until autumn 1940. It is not as if Soviet divisions are blessed with great organization to start with.

Perhaps a decaying modifier (or a partially decaying modifier, going from 75->25 over the duration for example) would be better, both gameplay-wise and in terms of historical accuracy. Once the main purges finish the organisation will recover as replacements are found and trained. The sovjets should perform better if the war breaks out a month before it passes compared to if it breaks out when the purges have just reached their zenith.

 

[hkrommel]

The main issue was not the low tier ranks but that the majority of brigade commanders and upwards were lost (one way or another) due to the purge. The Red Army didn't perform lousy on the tactical level to such a degree as much as it did on the operational and strategic level. That was a direct consequence of the purge since almost all commanders in high level postings had very little experience commanding larger units.
It's not like the Corps structure was abolished for fun after the invasion and army sizes vastly reduced to just a couple of divisions. It was out of necessity to give the new commanders a fighting chance. Though Russian sources (with a few exceptions) refuse to accept the connection even though the name and background of every higher ranking commander lost to the purge is available.

This pretty much. 3 of 5 Marshals, 13 of 15 Army Commanders, 8 of 9 Admirals, 50 of 57 Corps Commanders, 154 of 186 Division Commanders, 16 of 16 Army Commissars, and 25 of 28 Army Corps Commissars were purged. Even if some of them were allowed to return, the entire higher officer corps was gutted.

 

[Opanashc]

This pretty much. 3 of 5 Marshals, 13 of 15 Army Commanders, 8 of 9 Admirals, 50 of 57 Corps Commanders, 154 of 186 Division Commanders, 16 of 16 Army Commissars, and 25 of 28 Army Corps Commissars were purged. Even if some of them were allowed to return, the entire higher officer corps was gutted.

A lot of them gained their high positions in early 20's, going from lieutenants straight to generals. I highly doubt, such promotions gave them necessary skills to wage war. Their remaining peers certainly did not distinguish themselves later on. Yes, their loss affected the Red Army in a negative way, but the effect was not from removal of the "cream of the crop" but in scaring the rest into passivity, lethal on a mobile battlefield.

 

[shri]

Adding to @hkrommel and @Praetori

The ones who survived at the top were mostly the "boot lickers" of Stalin and not known to be command capable, people like - Voroshilov, Budenny, Kulik etc were totally incompetent but survived the purge. The re-instatements happened mainly due to the "start of war".

 

[Opanashc]

Adding to @hkrommel and @Praetori

The ones who survived at the top were mostly the "boot lickers" of Stalin and not known to be command capable, people like - Voroshilov, Budenny, Kulik etc were totally incompetent but survived the purge. The re-instatements happened mainly due to the "start of war".

Where is the proof, that those who didn't, were any better? That's like saying: "he would have been a genius! too bad he died before he was 2 years old." How did HoI3 represent the purged generals? As skill 1-2. Tukhachevskiy, the one treated as "most brilliant" of the purged lot, has a max skill of 5. Zhukov starts out as 5.
Rokossovskiy, was arrested, but released in 1940 - before the war. As were many others, who were reinstated. Please study history, cold hard facts, instead of cries "best of the best were killed!"

 

[Vulcan92]

Also, let's not forget that the game is currently in Beta, which is supposed to balance the game. All of the foci might very well change over the course of the next few weeks as the testing proceeds

 

[No idea]

On watching the latest WWW I paused the stream and read the details of 'the great purge' for the Soviet Union (1.58 in WWW8). It seems to me that this focus will always result in the loss of the war by the Soviets if the Germans do an early attack. Or even if the Finns do one.

Most focus takes 70 days, this one takes 210 days.
it results in;
I , a series of show trials which purge (that is remove) ministers and military leaders ( names not supplied)
II, it removes Trotskyite plot ( not wanted due to severe industrial penalty)
III, it gives -5% to national unity
IV, all doctrine research speeds get -10%
V, Divisional Organization -50%

IV and V last for 1460 days...that is 4 years. If it is the first national focus the Russians do it wont lose its effects on divisional organization until autumn 1940. It is not as if Soviet divisions are blessed with great organization to start with.

Well, they dont seem out of place to me, altough the exact figures and duration might be tweaked (and I am sure it will be). The only thing I miss is the lose of officers. I know you will lose ministers and high ranking military leaders, but the purges also affected thousands of mid and even low level officers. Altough you can say that is reflected by the -50% divisional org. One thing I think should be changed is the doctrine research penalty. When the big purges started, in 1937, the Deep Battle doctrine was already established in the soviet command. After the 1941 disasters it wasn feasible to use it, but in 1942 it got great results during Little Saturn. And it would be used for the rest of the war. In fact, I think that penalty should affect equipment research speed. Especially regarding tanks. Historically the purges especially feed on the soviet armoured command and research (engineers working in tanks and tank ammo). Fortunately for the soviets, the T 34 and KV 1 models had been already made when the purges started.

 

[Praetori]

A lot of them gained their high positions in early 20's, going from lieutenants straight to generals. I highly doubt, such promotions gave them necessary skills to wage war. Their remaining peers certainly did not distinguish themselves later on. Yes, their loss affected the Red Army in a negative way, but the effect was not from removal of the "cream of the crop" but in scaring the rest into passivity, lethal on a mobile battlefield.

A lot of them were actually well educated military professionals from the tsarist era who despite serving in the Red Army during the civil-war was purged due to their background. Left were the trustworthy revolutionaries with little military education and the results proved disastrous so I don't think that the purge mechanic should let the players get away with any small penalties.

 

[Gort11]

Maybe there's an event that gradually removes the purge effects during wartime, to reflect the replacement unit commanders gaining experience.

 

[fellaz007]

Purge. Cost the Red Arm 10,000 officers fired and not reinstated. Out of 80,000 that the Soviets had at the time. By 1941, there was a shortage of 80,000 officers even with shortened education times and such. It is simply mind boggling, how people believe, that a loss of $10,000 lead to fail of business when shortage was $80,000.
Dual command structure was eliminated in 1940, reinstated in 1941 after massive defeats. Learn some history.
People give USSR too much credit in the 1930s, giving it way too much power, and then trying to curb that power with different nerfs. Simply make USSR much weaker at the beginning of the game, but with a very dynamic development - and balance will be easier.

I am sorry to say so...
But comparing people with money is a pretty callous approach to start with.

I am no expert in history, but doing a minimal web research told me a bit different story.

"Recently declassified data indicate that in 1937, at the height of the Purges, the Red Army had 114,300 officers, of whom 11,034 were dismissed. In 1938, the Red Army had 179,000 officers, 56% more than in 1937, of whom a further 6,742 were sacked. In the highest echelons of the Red Army the Purges removed 3 of 5 marshals, 13 of 15 army generals, 8 of 9 admirals, 50 of 57 army corps generals, 154 out of 186 division generals, all 16 army commissars, and 25 of 28 army corps commissars.

The result was that the Red Army officer corps in 1941 had many inexperienced senior officers. While 60% of regimental commanders had two years or more of command experience in June 1941, and almost 80% of rifle division commanders, only 20% of corps commanders, and 5% or fewer army and military district commanders, had the same level of experience." Quote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army#Purges

It is not only the number of officers and their experience that were no longer available due to dismissal, imprisonment or death, the remaining officer corps will be scared as hell and this will affect the overall performance as well. It is not only numbers, we are talking about people! Thus a great deal of psychology will enter the equation.

To stay in @Opanashc economic example: If you purge 85% of the top management of any company and expect that the remaining staff carries on and that this will not affect the company's performance seriously, than you know even less about economics than you know about history.