Soviet effects of M-R pact

[boromir]

Originally posted by czolgosz
I don't quite understand - is Germany just DoW'ing the Soviets in 1939 in MP, rather than signing the M-R pact?

No, they just don't sign the pact because it gives them nothing, and gives everything to the Soviets. The Soviets can't really do much about this in 1939. So the Soviets end up much weaker if the pact is not signed. If they dow the Germans at this stage, they will lose, cause the Germans have a huge doctrinal advantage at this time. And that's ok, if that wasn't the case, the Soviets would always dow Germany in 1939, MR pact or no MR pact.

 

[unmerged(10750)]

Originally posted by boromir
If they dow the Germans at this stage, they will lose, cause the Germans have a huge doctrinal advantage at this time.

Even with a human-controlled UK and/or France? Or is this just 2-player, Germany and USSR?

The main historical reason the Germans went for the Pact in 1939 was that they were afraid of a new Tripartite agreement that would bring the Soviets into the Allies. This wasn't going to happen (mainly because the Poles wouldn't give the Soviets mil. access), but in any case the Germans were afraid of Soviet incursions into Rumania, cutting off their only source of oil.

EDIT: this makes me think - perhaps without an M-R pact, the Soviets should make harsher demands on Rumania, with a worst-case scenario where the Soviets puppet or annex Rumania.

 

[boromir]

Originally posted by czolgosz
Even with a human-controlled UK and/or France? Or is this just 2-player, Germany and USSR?

The main historical reason the Germans went for the Pact in 1939 was that they were afraid of a new Tripartite agreement that would bring the Soviets into the Allies. This wasn't going to happen (mainly because the Poles wouldn't give the Soviets mil. access), but in any case the Germans were afraid of Soviet incursions into Rumania, cutting off their only source of oil.

EDIT: this makes me think - perhaps without an M-R pact, the Soviets should make harsher demands on Rumania, with a worst-case scenario where the Soviets puppet or annex Rumania.

A UK & Russia vs Germany scenario, yes. Germany vs Russia - if Germany has no limits as to what they can occupy, they will win no matter what. Never played with a human France (supported by a human UK) in the picture, but from what I have seen in the multiplayer forum from other players, that seems to be the case too (by that time Italy is human played too, probably). Basically the longer Russia can wait the better their chances (they have an advantage by 1942 - especially now with German manpower problems). Of course, this may vary a bit depending for example, on tech sharing - unlimited tech sharing amongst the Allies/Russia greatly improves their chances, but most experienced MP groups tend to ban tech sharing between human led countries.

As for Romania, your ideas seem to be on the right track hmm ... as of now, if Germany ignores the MR pact, Russia gets no claims on Romania at all.

Yeah, the Germans were afraid the Russians might ally with the UK/France ... but in the game, in most MP games, its set in stone that Russia will be on the Allied side ... that's why the only way I can see the Germans seriously considering signing the pact is when they would be faced by a penalty of sorts if they don't sign it. I feel if the pact had not been signed, Germany might have not attacked Poland when it did, and there would have been much opposition (dissent) especially from the military who would view such a move as extremely risky. I feel dissent reflects pretty well the way the event has been modelled in HOI.

Anyway, this is not only an MP issue. In SP, there isn't much point in signing the pact either

 

[unmerged(3221)]

Originally posted by boromir
Well I suggested 5/10 in another thread before. I think that is the minimum. That means that with "Poland only" Germany ends up with 8% dissent (when they cede eastern Poland AFAIR), and honoring the pact leaves them with 3%. So its 10-8-3 for Germany. The difference between 10 and 8 is pretty small, so maybe it should be changed to 5/12, making it a 12-8-3 decision. I am ok with higher levels, though maybe these minimal ones present a player with real choices to make, which is what a game should be about

When historical is offered by Germany, I would cut the after annexing Poland dissent hit to 1 or 2 % or even eliminate it. I don't think it was a big internal issue given how fast Poland was overrun, the fact and propaganda about blitzkrieg, and the lack of a 2nd front given the pact.

If the limited partition is offered, there should be an immediate 10% dissent hit. This option denies a lot of territorial claims to the Soviet Union and there should be a large penalty for avoiding that. 5% isn't enough.

If no pact is offered at all, a big hit of 20%. It's the difference between a two front and a one front war, so there has to be an enormous penalty for Germany.

So my numbers would be 1 - 10 - 20.

 

[Orthank]

5% - no more!

I would suggest other thing:
1. No dissent hit for SU Dow Germans if pact is not proposed;

2. 5% if is proposed in limited version.

How about that?

 

[unmerged(3221)]

Originally posted by Orthank
5% - no more!

I would suggest other thing:
1. No dissent hit for SU Dow Germans if pact is not proposed;

2. 5% if is proposed in limited version.

How about that?

What if no pact is proposed? 'No deal with the Bolsheviks'
What's the penalty there for the German players? It has to be more than double your 5% hit for the limited option.

Countries other than Germany take big dissent hits for DoWs. Insisting that Germany take a 10 or 20 % dissent hit for avoiding a 2nd front isn't much in comparison to the SU taking a 10% dissent hit for a DoW if it does not have a territorial claim.

 

[Orthank]

Germany:
5% for limited
10% for no deals with bolscheviks

SU:
0% dissent hit when DoW Germany and RM Pact was not proposed
5% dissent hit when DoW Germany and RM Pact was only in limited version

 

[Vulture]

Originally posted by Orthank
Germany:
5% for limited
10% for no deals with bolscheviks

SU:
0% dissent hit when DoW Germany and RM Pact was not proposed
5% dissent hit when DoW Germany and RM Pact was only in limited version

First thing can be done, second would require new events...
Hmm maybe AI events could do that so that the player still gets the dissent hit, but the AI doesn't...

 

[boromir]

@john heidle: 20% for no deals with the Bolsheviks seems too high - with all the other dows Germany would have around 30% dissent, which effectively reduces their chances of winning to zero in multiplayer, meaning that nobody would ever choose such an option. The IC cost of reducing such a dissent would be tremendous.

Maybe czolgosz's idea with claims on Romania extended if there is no MR pact should be considered? (and then have 10 or 12 dissent for no deals, 5 dissent for limited for Germany). Slightly higher values for dissent are also ok, imho.

I like the suggestion that the Soviets should be able to get less dissent on a dow on Germany as well if there is no pact ...

 

[Vulture]

I'm afraid the Soviet pressure on Romania would need new events...

 

[boromir]

Hmm, can't Paradox ignore the translation issues for events any time in the future? - after all, the Liberate option made it in somehow and the no new events limitation is quite a handicap for the game ...

So basically the only option is that Germany gets some dissent, and that's it, it seems ...

 

[Vulture]

Long standing request... But as of now the answer is no

 

[unmerged(14078)]

Originally posted by boromir
Hmm, can't Paradox ignore the translation issues for events any time in the future? - after all, the Liberate option made it in somehow and the no new events limitation is quite a handicap for the game

Wasn't that button from EUII ? It's been a long time since i played it, but i guess it's from there...

Regards/
Klaus

 

[Vulture]

It's called RELEASE PUPPET in EU II

 

[boromir]

Another issue - Russia gets no CG reduction if they declare war on Germany. This is not event based, but in the EXE? Hmm, but I guess you can't link that to an event anyway ...

 

[unmerged(20475)]

What if you have the Soviets join the Allies, DOW the Germans with the Allies, and give them infrantry and artilliry techs (ones the Allies have)? I would think this would technically be an easy thing to do. This should also come up on the pop up menu for the German player to view when deciding. You could also add on a small % of dissent.

This gives the German player a good reason not to start a two front war.

 

[Vulture]

Yeah, we can add an AI_Event I think for the USSR joining the Allies... Hmmm

 

[Trinitrotoluen]

Part of the M-R deal was that the Soviets got the hull of a German CA (Lützow). The ship was towed to Leningrad and was renamed Petropavlovsk for completion. Progress was slow though. Still could you add a basic cruiser to the build queue which is already about 50% complete?

 

[boromir]

Still, AI events don't solve the problem for multiplayer ...

 

[unmerged(8319)]

Why do uyou guys want MR pact to yield dissent??? If I'm not much mistaken, dissent expresses the popular morale. Since the MR-treaty was secrect, it couldn't affect dissent neither when entered, nor when breached.

This seems all wrong.