Soviet & Eastern Bloc emigration restrictions

[benice1234]

How strict were they? The Wikipedia article implies that it was basically a prison state and nobody was allowed to leave. I kinda doubt that because there were over 70,000 Armenians alone who came to the USA from the USSR. I guess it is possible that all of them were defectors but I find it unlikely. What's the truth, OT?

 

[lila-laune-bär]

Armenian Americans don't all come from Armenia. The Middle East has (until recently) been very mixed, and there have been Armenian communities all over the place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Americans

Since the 1950s many Armenians from the Middle East (especially from Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Egypt and Turkey) migrated to America as a result of political instability in this region.

 

[benice1234]

Armenian Americans don't all come from Armenia. The Middle East has (until recently) been very mixed, and there have been Armenian communities all over the place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Americans

Since the 1950s many Armenians from the Middle East (especially from Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Egypt and Turkey) migrated to America as a result of political instability in this region.

"Soviet Armenians, on the other hand, were mostly genocide survivors who never fully integrated into Soviet life after their repatriation in the 1940s. The large-scale emigration of Soviet Armenians, mainly to Western countries, began in 1956. About 30,000 Soviet Armenians entered the country from 1960 to 1984, and another 60,000 moved throughout the late 1980s, during the Perestroika era.[27] The total number of Soviet Armenian emigrants from 1956 to 1989, over 80% of them to the US, is estimated at 77,000.[29]"

I was referring to this from that article

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

How strict were they? The Wikipedia article implies that it was basically a prison state and nobody was allowed to leave. I kinda doubt that because there were over 70,000 Armenians alone who came to the USA from the USSR. I guess it is possible that all of them were defectors but I find it unlikely. What's the truth, OT?

Well . . .

Lee Harvey Oswald was allowed admission in the USSR. And he was allowed to leave again with a Russian bride. Of course, the Mafia blew his head off down in a Dallas police station in front of every camera in the country; but I doubt it was on a KGB contract.

If conditions weren't that bad, it makes you wonder why everyone who stepped foot on free soil screamed 'Sanctuary' like Quasimodo sweeping Esmerelda into Notre Dame Cathedral.

And if I remember correctly, being a Jew headed to Israel got you priority seating on the next plane out of Moscow.

 

[XYN]

There was a possibility to leave under certain conditions - although as far as I know it was mostly Jews. For example Google's founder Sergey Brin.

Aside from that, temporary visits abroad were allowed, but required justification.

 

[Pyoro]

We wouldn't have had the Berlin Wall if the Eastern block was a huge proponent of free movement. Germany sought all sorts of routes out of the country - vacations in other Soviet countries where border controls were less strict, escaping through the North sea, digging under the tunnel ...

However, even if you combine all of those, it's still not as many as were officially allowed to emigrate. The DDR wasn't happy about them and tried to discourage them in various ways, but ultimately they didn't abolish the option of legal emigration, for whatever specific reason.

I'd imagine it's vaguely similar to other East block countries, even if obviously Germans had a very convenient option of migrating from Germany to Germany, not having any language issues or whatever. They probably didn't want skilled workers to leave (usually the first ones to do so after all), but I don't think they'd have completely shut all doors for the general population - that tends to cause more issues than it solves, I'd guess.

 

[pithorr]

The Poles could generally travel to the West. At least since 70s. My dad was several times in the UK, Austria, Germany and France on some job duties.

Unless you were active in the resistance against the regime of course...

 

[HuzzButt]

There where successive waves of immigrants coming from the eastern block, preceding various border closings. Iirc it happened up until the 80's at least. Most notable are probably the Hungarians (56) and Czech (68) and Polish Jews.

 

[Cavalry]

Don't forget emigration also depend on if the destination country's willing to receive you! It will be easier in the case of family union..

Also I see some source say West Germany and Israel were willing to pay to receive German and Jew immigration.

 

[Pyoro]

Yes, West Germany ransomed some DDR citizens - political prisoners, to be precise. The idea was humanitarian aid, but there seems to be some suggestion that all it did was get them to arrest more people, essentially turning it into some sort of human trafficking. I'm not sure that's all that plausible as there wasn't that much money involved, afaik, but who knows. Ransom didn't automatically mean emigration though. That was the idea, but West Germany didn't force them - and East Germany didn't always tell them. So many just stayed put ^^

 

[JodelDiplom]

Emigration from east Germany wasn't banned altogether, but it was set up so that you needed permission. Trying to leave without permission, or even just planning to leave without permission, was a capital offense and punishable with up to two years in prison for "light" cases, up to eight years in prison for "serious" cases according to §213 of East Germany's 1968 penal code

1. Anyone who illegally crosses the border of the German Democratic Republic or otherwise violates the regulations pertaining to temporary visits to the German Democratic Republic or transit through the German Democratic Republic will be punished with imprisonment of up to two years or be sentenced to probation, detention, or a fine.
2. Any citizen of the German Democratic Republic who in violation of the law does not return to the German Democratic Republic by the due date stated or who violates government guidelines for his stay abroad will likewise be punished.
3. In case of aggravating circumstances, the perpetrator will be punished with imprisonment from one to up to eight years. Aggravating circumstances exist when the act endangers people's lives or health; is committed while carrying weapons or using dangerous means or methods; is executed with particular intensity; occurs by means of falsification of documents, false notarization, or misuse of official documents or by using a hiding place; the act is committed in concert with others; the perpetrator has been sentenced for illegally crossing the border before.
4. Preparation and attempts are both punishable under the law. [5]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republikflucht

You would not be granted permission unless you were elderly, could be trusted to return, or were a person whom the government wanted to leave the country for good. Ordinary working-age people who didn't have valid reasons like wanting to compete in an international sports event, or attend a scientific conference, were not granted permission to leave the country. Not even Joe Shmoe unskilled angry dissident types. In fact one of the jobs of the vast secret police was to keep tabs on everyone so that when someone applied for a permit to temporarily leave the country, the authorities could ask the secret police on how likely the person was to return.

 

[wingo]

Emigration from east Germany wasn't banned altogether, but it was set up so that you needed permission. Trying to leave without permission, or even just planning to leave without permission, was a capital offense and punishable with up to two years in prison for "light" cases, up to eight years in prison for "serious" cases according to §213 of East Germany's 1968 penal code

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republikflucht

You would not be granted permission unless you were elderly, could be trusted to return, or were a person whom the government wanted to leave the country for good. Ordinary working-age people who didn't have valid reasons like wanting to compete in an international sports event, or attend a scientific conference, were not granted permission to leave the country. Not even Joe Shmoe unskilled angry dissident types. In fact one of the jobs of the vast secret police was to keep tabs on everyone so that when someone applied for a permit to temporarily leave the country, the authorities could ask the secret police on how likely the person was to return.

AFAIK similar in Czechoslovakia, you had to be deemed realiable and have a valid reason to be allowed to travel to Western countries. But as everything was bureaucratic and corruption was rampant, if you knew the right people or it suited them or you just got really lucky you could get permission even if others could not. Or the opposite, if you were hated by someone with connections or got unlucky, too bad even if on paper everything was OK. The corruption was usually about personal connections and doing favors and not about money per se, although sometimes money was involved - usually everyone had enough money, problem was often finding popular goods to buy for that money (especially western goods), scarcity was the norm.

Families of illegal emigrants sometimes suffered - could not get higher education, could not leave country even for a vacation to fellow comblock countries like Yugoslavia, could not get better jobs etc. Not always, but it was not uncommon. Again, depends on how well you or your family was connected, and some luck was involved as well. But if you tried to leave and were unsuccessfull, well, you could be sure you were going to suffer, prison was just a start - all of the above applied, and then some, for you, and your family as well. Depends a lot also on the era, there were more and less strict years depending on current political situation - for example during Prague spring it was completely different than half year later after Soviet occupation.

If you were caught secretly crossing the border, there were also incidents of people getting shot on the spot. Around 400 people were shot on Czechoslovak borders trying to secretly cross them in 1948-1989.

The most used emigration path from what I heard was to go to Yugoslavia for a vacation, and emigrate from there (often whole families). The most popular destination was Germany as german was the second most taught language after russian in schools (of course I`m talking about second language, not primary). Sorry, no english, as that was the language of capitalist opressors

 

[gagenater]

The Poles could generally travel to the West. At least since 70s. My dad was several times in the UK, Austria, Germany and France on some job duties.

Unless you were active in the resistance against the regime of course...

If he was doing it on/for his work, that was one of the few reasons for which citizens of the eastern bloc were allowed to leave. As noted too, those considered 'undesirable' like Jews and Armenians were often encouraged to leave, but the ordinary citizen was not. The ability to cross borders was progressively and unevenly tightened up throughout the 50's and 60's, such that by the early 1970's nobody could leave without having explicit permission from the state, and even then usually only for short trips like the one your dad took.

 

[pithorr]

If he was doing it on/for his work, that was one of the few reasons for which citizens of the eastern bloc were allowed to leave. As noted too, those considered 'undesirable' like Jews and Armenians were often encouraged to leave, but the ordinary citizen was not. The ability to cross borders was progressively and unevenly tightened up throughout the 50's and 60's, such that by the early 1970's nobody could leave without having explicit permission from the state, and even then usually only for short trips like the one your dad took.

But my dad was not a special important guy. He was just employed in the IT company which worked for the steel industry. They were purchasing computers and it needed some training abroad.
Tourist trips were also possible, quite a few people were travelling to some cheap countries like Greece or Turkey or guys with family for instance in West Germany (like my cousin) could visit them regularly.
The problem was that your passport was held by the police and you had to ask them to handle it to you every time you wanted to leave. And of course money. With East European wages and hard currency black market rates (what made you were earning ca. $30 monthly) only very few people (usually small business guys) could afford to travel to the West.

 

[wingo]

But my dad was not a special important guy. He was just employed in the IT company which worked for the steel industry. They were purchasing computers and it needed some training abroad.
Tourist trips were also possible, quite a few people were travelling to some cheap countries like Greece or Turkey or guys with family for instance in West Germany (like my cousin) could visit them regularly.
The problem was that your passport was held by the police and you had to ask them to handle it to you every time you wanted to leave. And of course money. With East European wages and hard currency black market rates (what made you were earning ca. $30 monthly) only very few people (usually small business guys) could afford to travel to the West.

IT guy in steel industry in 70s definitely qualifies as an important guy, i know one personally. Not in a sense that he could boss police around for example, but in the sense that the regime was happy to send a reliable guy abroad buying important tech and getting trained, so he can improve things at home.

Also looks like Poland was a bit different, everything was state owned in Czechoslovakia afaik, no small businesses allowed. There were some individual traders, but that was unofficial, in a grey or black market sense.

 

[pithorr]

IT guy in steel industry in 70s definitely qualifies as an important guy, i know one personally. Not in a sense that he could boss police around for example, but in the sense that the regime was happy to send a reliable guy abroad buying important tech and getting trained, so he can improve things at home.

Also looks like Poland was a bit different, everything was state owned in Czechoslovakia afaik, no small businesses allowed. There were some individual traders, but that was unofficial, in a grey or black market sense.

Well, Poland was kinda different indeed. Most of agriculture was private for instance, and AFAIK private business up to 50 employees was allowed either. However their life was rather hard anyway. My grandpa had a pretty large carpentry workshop and was almost ruined by state driven surtaxes. He lost all his pre-war savings to survive. None of his offspring wanted to continue such a business...

 

[Herbert West]

But my dad was not a special important guy. He was just employed in the IT company which worked for the steel industry. They were purchasing computers and it needed some training abroad.

That's about as important as you can get (high-tech industry, nationally vital industry, need to source from the West) without direct military involvement.

 

[Okawoa]

It was difficult unless your nationality had cliques like the Armenians and Jews. If the USSR had Lebonese I'm sure they also could've got out due to their global reach. That said it was frustratingly difficult - my dad tried twice and had to abort an attempt after realizing they had fenced a Finnish lake half way through with barbed wire.

 

[Czert]

It was difficult unless your nationality had cliques like the Armenians and Jews. If the USSR had Lebonese I'm sure they also could've got out due to their global reach. That said it was frustratingly difficult - my dad tried twice and had to abort an attempt after realizing they had fenced a Finnish lake half way through with barbed wire.

what ? soviets realy barbedwired lake in half ? that gives even bigger meaning to "in soviet union everthing is posible" as was slogan of commies time.

edit : i remember article about that in some part of su, there was kolchoz in which they used helicopters to transport cows from cowshed to grazing place, because someone finded out that if they move them by legs, they are losing some fat (weight), which meaned that production quotas will not be meet, and under commies fullfiling of quatas was EVERTHING.

 

[gagenater]

what ? soviets realy barbedwired lake in half ? that gives even bigger meaning to "in soviet union everthing is posible" as was slogan of commies time.

edit : i remember article about that in some part of su, there was kolchoz in which they used helicopters to transport cows from cowshed to grazing place, because someone finded out that if they move them by legs, they are losing some fat (weight), which meaned that production quotas will not be meet, and under commies fullfiling of quatas was EVERTHING.

That's not even that crazy or unusual. Heck - I owned a property at one time that had a lake on it's boundary that was bounded with barbed wire along the property line. It was the only way to keep the cows from swimming across and eating our tasty grass. It got rusted out from the water one day, and I came home from work to a herd of cows grazing on the neighbors and my front yard. Eventually we worked together and managed to shoo most of them back onto their side of the land, and park a truck in a place that would blockade them temporarily, but we had to wait for the rancher to show up and move a couple of recalcitrant cows that wouldn't go.