Soviet content weirdness

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Skjuld

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E.g. sovjet Kamikaze is unhistorical? Maybe. Player wanting to try it? Not as much...
That's the root of the problem, isn't it ? It's not only ahistorical and somewhat silly, but on top of that it's of extremely dubious usefulness in-game... Which is what the original post was underlining. I, for one, don't mind somewhat outlandish "what-ifs", but this looks like an ill-thought filler.
 

xsmilingbanditx

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That's the root of the problem, isn't it ? It's not only ahistorical and somewhat silly, but on top of that it's of extremely dubious usefulness in-game... Which is what the original post was underlining. I, for one, don't mind somewhat outlandish "what-ifs", but this looks like an ill-thought filler.

It's just an example. I prefer a "I'd rather prefer x than y" to a "It's silly". I could point put alot of silly stuff in alot of games but Not always come up with a better idea which is the point of constructive critizism.
 

Karapis

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Of course this understanding, though based on reading historians and articles over the years, could be incorrect. However, I've yet to see any source whatsoever to the contrary, let alone a reputable one.

This is ridiculous. You are not supporting your claims with any sources because those are based on "reading over the years". But for some reason expect others to provide sources of the opposite? It is counterproductive. Why your opinion is "basics and common knowledge", but opposite opinion needs to be proved?

Btw the general rule is that one should prove existence of something, not non-existence. I cannot link any source that "charge through minefield" didn't happened, exactly because it didn't happened and there is no evidence of it happening. Nobody writes documents about things, which didn't happened. So in this case one who claims that this actually happened, is expected to provide sources
 

hkrommel

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This is ridiculous. You are not supporting your claims with any sources because those are based on "reading over the years". But for some reason expect others to provide sources of the opposite? It is counterproductive. Why your opinion is "basics and common knowledge", but opposite opinion needs to be proved?

Btw the general rule is that one should prove existence of something, not non-existence. I cannot link any source that "charge through minefield" didn't happened, exactly because it didn't happened and there is no evidence of it happening. Nobody writes documents about things, which didn't happened. So in this case one who claims that this actually happened, is expected to provide sources

"On 12 January, the Vistula offensive began..after shtraf companies of prisoners were forced through the minefields, rifle battalions secured the front line."

Anthony Beevor The Fall of Berlin 1945, p. 16

Also Chris Bellamy, Absolute War, talking about how the Shtrafbat were placed in suicidal situations and being assigned to one was considered a death sentence.

Glantz has written about just about everything I've claimed, from how blocking battalions were universally used to prevent penal battalion retreat, shocking statistics about their survival rates, and their role clearing minefields and fortified positions. He also talks about how they were poorly armed until around 1944, and even then had terrible casualty rates compared to the rest of the Red Army.

So yes, I'd say this is generally accepted information. I'm rather annoyed I had to point that out to people so willfully ignorant of widely-known history, especially since so much dances around the forum rules, but there it is. Your move, unless you'd like me to provide sources for water being wet as well?

BTW there is someone out there called Pylcyn who paints a much rosier picture of the Shtrafbat, but he was an officer in command of a penal company so I doubt his accuracy very highly. I can't draw a direct analogy due to forum rules but I'm sure you can use your imagination.

I get your point, but the reference to SMERSH being in charge is somewhat dubious.

Yeah it is, again because most of what we know about these sorts of details is from memoirs and the like. It's probably written that way since blocking battalions, particularly later in the war, were often ad hoc rearline personnel cobbled together more than official formations, so their composition wouldn't be recorded. It's entirely probable that the recollection was that [insert Communist Party goons here] were the blocking detachments, and since NKVD and SMERSH fall into that category and were probably used together on a semi-regular basis they were mixed up.

Glantz wrote about the blocking detachments in one of his books, I don't remember if he talked about their composition.
 
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Karapis

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You clerly don't know definition of "source" and "accepted knowledge". Source is historical document, not popular-science and fiction books. Authors you are referring to were critisized a lot for spreading 3rd reich myths about ussr. There are tons of books out there defending any point of view, it is pointless to link them. I mean your quote from the book should look like:
after shtraf companies of prisoners were forced through the minefields [1. reference to source], rifle battalions secured the front line."
Without that it is not "accepted knowledge" it is propaganda. Propaganda goes both ways (all ways) of course. If you read only one side, it will become accepted truth for you sure
 

Kat Tsun

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British historians are almost universally terrible (Bellamy's Red God of War is OK, I guess, but it's a contemporary examination of then-current practices and weapons, not a historical retrospective piece or study, but saying Beevor did any "studies" is offensive to the term I guess), but David Glantz is a master of the art and his sources are alright, he always includes them, and he is pretty thorough in his work.

Colossus Reborn: The Red Army at War 1941-1943, pg. 170:

"(...) Aside from the administrative and security tasks they performed in the GULAG system, the most onerous and ifnamous tasks the NKVD's forces performed during wartime involved ensuring discipline within the Red Army's operating fronts and armies, primarily by preventing desertion, and raising manpower for the Red Army's operating forces. Specifically, beginning as early as late 1941, but routinely by 1943, the Stavka required the NKVD to form and employ blocking detachments (zagraditel'nye otriady), whose specific function was to prevent Red Army troops from deserting and to impress military-age civilians in the region liberated by the Red Army into the Red Army's ranks, if necessary by force (see Chapter 13 for details)."

Chapter 13 essentially details a relatively boring sounding process of the NKVD running around liberated portions of Ukraine/Belorussia/Estonia and rounding up any fighting age (17-45 y/o) males to hand a uniform, rifle, and helmet, and throw at the Nazis. Fairly typical and reasonable when you're fighting a war of extermination and decisively on the losing side for the bulk of the fight, or when you're attempting to impress law and order on a population that may have been under enemy control for several years. The most sinister sounding thing is the use of "forced conscription" which isn't so sinister when you grasp the real context of the war, its scale and scope, and the Stavka's prejudices against using Central Asians to do a Russian's job.
 

Black5Raven

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males to hand a uniform, rifle, and helmet
The majority of this number were members of partisan and underground units. Many of them are servicemen who escaped captivity or escaped from it. Most of the working-age population and young people by that time had already been taken to Germany for work.

It was also a precaution. Not a single army in the world will leave armed militia in its rear. Especially in the conditions of the attacks of nationalists under the auspices of the German government or their special teams.

You clerly don't know definition of "source" and "accepted knowledge". Source is historical document, not popular-science and fiction books. Authors you are referring to were critisized a lot for spreading 3rd reich myths about ussr. There are tons of books out there defending any point of view, it is pointless to link them. I mean your quote from the book should look like:
after shtraf companies of prisoners were forced through the minefields [1. reference to source], rifle battalions secured the front line."
Without that it is not "accepted knowledge" it is propaganda. Propaganda goes both ways (all ways) of course. If you read only one side, it will become accepted truth for you sure
He claims that SMERSH (the organization whose goal was to combat sabotage and espionage actions in the rear) had entire detachments, companies, etc., had full control over the troops and chain command,
that they sent troops through minefields and did not allow them to retreat.

Very reliable source of information.

And of course, not a single link to archival documents which had proofs with similar orders or the fact that they (SMERSH - death to the spies if translated from russian langv) had similar powers to influence High command (Which was subject only to the Stavka orders) orders.


I cannot link any source that "charge through minefield"
Funny enough, this myth is usually used with a description of the fact that this method of "Demining" was necessary in order to allow tanks to pass through a minefield.

Do you understand what the problem is? The anti-tank mine must feel the pressure of 300 kilograms on a tiny piece of land to react.

To avoid such silly thoughts enough to get acquainted with how preparations are being made for the offensive in each of the participating armies. German, Soviet, American, etc.
And the removal of mines - this is something without which they do not begin any offence.
Minesweepers or special equipment create wide strips clear of mines along which the troops advance.

In extreme cases, can be used long-term artillery barrage preparation.


Intelligence may be wrong, sappers may not remove some of the mines, or during the battle the troops may get lost and get out of the "safe" corridor (as was the case with the Germans during the Battle of Kursk - they cleared the fields even using airplanes and some troops marching right into the mines due to chaos of battle)

But to attribute this to an "order to attack through a minefield?"
 
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Gonztah

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I dont know where you get the 300kg pressure required from. All the main german at mines had a trigger weight well below 200 kilos, even 90 kilos could be enough on tellermine 35s. A soldier in full equipment (especially if they were a big man) running on top of these at mines could rather easily trigger it if they were unlucky enough to step right on the pressure trigger with full force.

Just wanted to use my pioneer knowledge this once. Thats all
 

Louella

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There are a lot of things said about minefields and the Russians. Theres even that quote on the loading screens about "if our infantry encounters a minefield it attacks as if it was not there" but without putting that into context.

The context being that German artillery was lethal enough that if the infantry slowed to traverse the mines safely, they would take more casualties from artillery than they would from the minefield if they did not slow.

Such were the calculations made by the Soviet planners based on bitter experience.

The other thing that is also a bit of a myth is that Soviet infantryman were poorly equipped. At times and places such as Stalingrad that might have been the case, but in general the Soviet soldier was better supplied with stuff than the German. Mortar rounds aplenty and so on. The quality of the leadership was more variable though.
 

Karapis

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Theres even that quote on the loading screens about "if our infantry encounters a minefield it attacks as if it was not there" but without putting that into context.
This particular phrase is from Eisenhower memoirs as far as i understand. (claimed to be heard from Zhukov). There is no further context at all. It might be exactly what Zhukov said. It might be misinterpretation of his words. It might be joke. It might be complete made up bulshit. We don't know.
 

Louella

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It might be misinterpretation of his words.

A quick Google search turned up a reddit link that provided a bit more context. Seems Marshal Zhukovs real opinion was that basic mine clearance should be a part of regular infantryman training, such that units would not be stalled in front of a minefield and take casualties from artillery while waiting for sappers to arrive. Zhukovs method seems to have been for the infantry to continue to advance and form a bridgehead on the other side of the mines, until sappers could arrive to clear a path for vehicles.
 

hkrommel

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Apparently Glantz is now parroting German propaganda. I swear sometimes this forum is the twilight zone. I’m not even going to respond to that drivel, just let it speak for itself.

You clerly don't know definition of "source" and "accepted knowledge".

You have such a double standard it’s hilarious. I say something is accepted knowledge, you say it’s not because there’s no source claiming that the Soviets used Shtrafbat to clear minefields. I provide multiple sources backing exactly that. You decide that it’s no longer accepted knowledge because there’s a source about it.

So basically if I say something is accepted knowledge it’s not because I haven’t provided a source, but if I provide a source it’s no longer accepted knowledge. Oh and it's Nazi propaganda too.

Are you daft?

British historians are almost universally terrible

I’m wondering where you get the chutzpah to malign an entire field of professionals who are certainly more experienced in this field and the source material than you?

Oh and @Black5Raven I’m still waiting for you to produce a single source to support anything you’ve said. I’ve produced 3.

Edit: One last thing I’d like to point out:

I’m not sure how this became a discussion about minefields. The original claim was by Black5Raven, and it was that because the Germans claimed the Soviets devalued human life, the Soviets did not devalue human life.

Aside from that not being how logic works, I was inclined to counter it with historical examples. Since I wanted to be cautious about potentially undiscussable subjects, I thought I would provide a more limited historical example of how the Soviets did not value human life: penal battalions.

Along the way this whole discussion became bogged down in minutiae, but there has been no attempt by anyone to refute the claim that the Soviets devalued human life, only dismissal.
 
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Kat Tsun

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The majority of this number were members of partisan and underground units. Many of them are servicemen who escaped captivity or escaped from it. Most of the working-age population and young people by that time had already been taken to Germany for work.

It was also a precaution. Not a single army in the world will leave armed militia in its rear. Especially in the conditions of the attacks of nationalists under the auspices of the German government or their special teams.

As I said, fairly boring sounding and more a form of impressing law and order on a previous enemy occupied zone than anything else. The French did similar in 1944.

I’m wondering where you get the chutzpah to malign an entire field of professionals who are certainly more experienced in this field and the source material than you?

The part where the most successful British historians tend to be more akin to fiction novel writers than actual producers and presenters of new material? Unlike Americans, Germans, or Russians, the British have a rather unusual and somewhat unique flair for embellishing the small details. I suppose you learn at Oxford that memoirs are just as valid as any other form of source material, but it's not quite the same thing that Americans do, where you're taught to snoop out new sources of information from obscure hiding places and presently them as tersely and plainly as possible.

There is a noticeable lack of that sort of artistic panache to Glantz's writings, but he is substantially more learned in the subject of the Great Patriotic War than the likes of Beevor or Keegan. Whereas Glantz is mostly known for being one of the first men to snoop around the Soviet archives and synthesize the new information it offered into things like When Titans Clashed or Colossus Reborn, Beevor, Keegan, Ferguson, Hill, et. al. are mostly known for crafting narrative fictions like Berlin 1945 buried inside some scholarly research.

There are, of course, good British historians, but none of them are particularly well known in the public sphere, and none of them sell very many books. Most of them are dead old men who had no training as historians, but were rather career soldiers or scientists, such as R.E. Simpkin, D.K. Brown, and I.V. Hogg. These people can produce good works but they're not as popular or well known as their "narrative history" countrymen. Serious scholarly work is neither appreciated nor wanted in the popular press, but it seems that Americans are more apt to enjoy it than whoever Beevor is writing for. Perhaps Americans don't enjoy narrative history as much, or perhaps it's a sign of infection of by Marxist or Tory teleology, and grand narratives in general, extant in the British popular consciousness infecting their academia.

Regardless of the actual cause, "narrative history" is something that is a mostly British product, exported by British historians to the wider world, to the overall detriment of their craft but certainly not their wallets. It's a rather mercenary form of study, TBQH. Of course, that is all a fairly well known criticism of a lot of British historians, which is why they are almost universally terrible, barring the small number that don't write narrative history, who are almost universally excellent.

Now, I shan't point out the obvious contradictions above that makes my tongue-in-cheek statement plainly clear, but then you were referencing Beevor and Glantz in the same breath.
 

hkrommel

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Now, I shan't point out the obvious contradictions above that makes my tongue-in-cheek statement plainly clear, but then you were referencing Beevor and Glantz in the same breath.

I mean both are better than non-sources (except not according to one of the posters who said Glantz is propaganda), but I think this is somewhat fair. I do think you overstate shortcomings and unduly slight approaches to history that differ from your favored approach, but I thought you were talking about all British historians (including Hogg et. al).

I just have neither the time nor patience to exhaustively source something for people who don't provide any sources and claim any source you do provide is propaganda.

Oh, and now that you mention it Colossus Reborn is the Glantz book I was thinking of in the above post, thanks for reminding me!
 
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Kat Tsun

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I mean both are better than non-sources (except not according to one of the posters who said Glantz is propaganda)

He was talking about Beevor, who actually is propaganda, by shilling a specific narrative bias in his novels, then presenting them as historical truth. Ditto Keegan, who literally shilled for the Waffen-SS and HIAG, and was perhaps the architect most responsible for what modern Internetizens refer to as "Wehrabooism" with his worship of SS Tiger tank battalions or whatever, and his description of a bunch of a thugs and ne'er-do-wells as "elite" captivating Western audiences for decades. It's a bit of a shame that the popular consciousness thinks of such titanic tomes as Turtledove, Beevor, and Keegan before David Glantz, Azar Gat, or Christopher Bassford, but alas.

You can't really separate the two types of propaganda either, because at the end of the day they're the same sort of grand narrative, teleological approach to "history", just from opposed angles. Beevor is/was a committed Marxist-Leninist (and, as I can attest to, once a Marxist always a Marxist, whether you're Maoist, Leninist, Analytical, Trotskyite, Posadist, Orthodox, etc, you cannot shake the metaphysical implications and explicit meanderings of the wunderkinder duo of Marx/Engels no matter how hard you try) while Keegan was a Tory, but both approached history as represented by some sort of over-arching plan or narrative set in motion by a higher agency (for Marxism, it is the class struggle between the oppressed workers and the ruling bourgeoisie; for Tories it is the ancient war/volcano god, Yahweh, and the hanger-on Jesus Christ) towards some defined end point.

In that sense it is plainly propaganda. However, Glantz actively tries to avoid making moral judgments (and when he does, he is careful to couch them in the times, rather than presenting them as a unspeakable horror or some such by applying modern American or European morals to Stalinist Russia) about the things he writes about.

The ideal historian is not a moral philosopher, nor a narrative author, since he generally lacks the training for either. Rather, he is an uncoverer of forgotten truths and texts that he presents for the reader to make his own decisions about, and then at worst, perhaps he makes some sidelong glances at, or attempts to synthesize the knowledge thereof, only after he has already presented all available information. Most British historians, unfortunately, tend to be popular historians who would bank on a quick grab at the zeitgeist rather than an impartial presentation and analysis of data.

There's simply no money to be had in proper academic writing in the UK, it seems. Probably why their best historians were retired general officers, judges, and admirals. Shame, since these people, for all their talents, are only amateurs compared the professional historian classes, represented by the likes Glantz, Gat, etc.

A quick Google search turned up a reddit link that provided a bit more context. Seems Marshal Zhukovs real opinion was that basic mine clearance should be a part of regular infantryman training, such that units would not be stalled in front of a minefield and take casualties from artillery while waiting for sappers to arrive. Zhukovs method seems to have been for the infantry to continue to advance and form a bridgehead on the other side of the mines, until sappers could arrive to clear a path for vehicles.

Considering that tanks often encounter minefields on the attack when they're already inside them, after being taken under fire by anti-tank means, the very idea of sitting still and waiting for the plows to arrive is easier solved by removing your sidearm from your holster, placing it on your temple, and pulling the trigger. You will save the enemy the time, money, and effort of firing shells at your tanks. Real hard men drive the tanks through the minefield without waiting for the plows. You don't need breaching equipment, just bull through.

Alas, Stalinists, despite the epithet, were never very good at actually using their tanks. Such incompetent sounding tactical decision-making is something I could see them doing, but would perhaps still have difficulty believing if I saw it with my own eyes.

What you actually seem to be describing is a dismounted breaching operation rather than an "attack". Such breaching operations (at least in the WW2) would done with small groups of hand-picked men, equipped with shovels, bayonets, and flares, who would infiltrate the enemy defensive belt at nighttime, eliminate enemy machine gun positions and start refilling anti-tank ditches, marking mines, and removing concertina wire, in lieu of actual sappers. When it came time to launch the attack, the men fire their flares or use some other signal means to mark cleared obstacle lanes for the attacking force.

After WW2, the Soviets emphasized training motor riflemen in the art of using the bayonet to probe for mines, so they wouldn't have to hand-pick men and have them led by sapper officers or whatever. About the only difference.
 

hkrommel

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You can't really separate the two types of propaganda either, because at the end of the day they're the same sort of grand narrative, teleological approach to "history", just from opposed angles. Beevor is/was a committed Marxist-Leninist (and, as I can attest to, once a Marxist always a Marxist, whether you're Maoist, Leninist, Analytical, Trotskyite, Posadist, Orthodox, etc, you cannot shake the metaphysical implications and explicit meanderings of the wunderkinder duo of Marx/Engels no matter how hard you try) while Keegan was a Tory, but both approached history as represented by some sort of over-arching plan or narrative set in motion by a higher agency (for Marxism, it is the class struggle between the oppressed workers and the ruling bourgeoisie; for Tories it is the ancient war/volcano god, Yahweh, and the hanger-on Jesus Christ) towards some defined end point.

I haven't encountered you before so when you first started you seemed to be one of the more reasonable people here, but then you had to go post something like this which makes you sound like a third-year university student parroting a historiography professor with an axe to grind. There are multiple ways of doing history and I guarantee people more intelligent than you or I have disagreed about which way is best, and I guarantee those same people don't characterize narrative history as "propaganda."

Let's take it down a notch.
 

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He was talking about Beevor, who actually is propaganda, by shilling a specific narrative bias in his novels, then presenting them as historical truth. Ditto Keegan, who literally shilled for the Waffen-SS and HIAG, and was perhaps the architect most responsible for what modern Internetizens refer to as "Wehrabooism" with his worship of SS Tiger tank battalions or whatever, and his description of a bunch of a thugs and ne'er-do-wells as "elite" captivating Western audiences for decades. It's a bit of a shame that the popular consciousness thinks of such titanic tomes as Turtledove, Beevor, and Keegan before David Glantz, Azar Gat, or Christopher Bassford, but alas.

I can't help but object that you placed Beevor and Keegan on the same level as Harry Turtledove, that smacks of a false equivalence to me. You can disagree all you want about the quality of or bias in Beevor's and Keegan's works but lumping them in with Turtuledove's alt-history novels is quite disingenuous.
 

Black5Raven

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I dont know where you get the 300kg pressure required from. All the main german at mines had a trigger weight well below 200 kilos, even 90 kilos could be enough on tellermine 35s. A soldier in full equipment (especially if they were a big man) running on top of these at mines could rather easily trigger it if they were unlucky enough to step right on the pressure trigger with full force.

Just wanted to use my pioneer knowledge this once. Thats all
300 kg were a random number taken from the head just to illustrate the point, I am not familiar with the mines used by the German army in the initial period of the war.
But the fact that a person can activate an anti-tank mine - wouldn’t it be a tremendous .. genious step from the engineers and designers side?
Their goal is to stop the armored vehicle, which is much more dangerous than ordinary infantry and clearly should not explode under its feet.

I highly doubt that the anti-tank mine (at least the majority used during that period) would have exploded under the rank and file soldiers.
The soldiers did not go into battle with full equipment, both from the German and the Soviet side. In addition, do not forget about the era - the 1940s are not modern days with an abundance of food, and especially meat. A large and heavy soldiers were relatively few.

As I said, fairly boring sounding and more a form of impressing law and order on a previous enemy occupied zone than anything else. The French did similar in 1944.
This may sound like anything, I just say how things were for the most part. The military appeal was of course made, but .... by that time most of the young, and especially the male, were moved in Germany. So in general for recrutment was lefted not so many people except of
Partisans and people from in numerous partisan zones. That was a pretty common thing.


This particular phrase is from Eisenhower memoirs as far as i understand. (claimed to be heard from Zhukov). There is no further context at all. It might be exactly what Zhukov said. It might be misinterpretation of his words. It might be joke. It might be complete made up bulshit. We don't know.

You're right. The authenticity of the phrase itself is a huge question because everything written goes through the prism of the author's memoirs. They write these texts after some time, changing the original meaning or even inventing it - not like in the diaries that were written during the breaks before the offensive.

Usually, this "phrase" is followed by the continuation that after the clearance of the field by the forces of the infantry, the tanks pass without encountering any obstacles.

What is faced with a logical contradiction is how infantry cleans the field (if it is not sappers) from anti-tank mines that DO NOT explode under them.




The context being that German artillery was lethal enough that if the infantry slowed to traverse the mines safely, they would take more casualties from artillery than they would from the minefield if they did not slow.

Such were the calculations made by the Soviet planners based on bitter experience.

The other thing that is also a bit of a myth is that Soviet infantryman were poorly equipped. At times and places such as Stalingrad that might have been the case,

They were well prepared even in the Stalingrad period. The problem was still not in the experienced command, many of which died in the initial period of the war, some lack of interaction between the troops or individual units and ..... lack of communications. This was one of the biggest problems.

The equipment of the ordinary soldier as a whole was not inferior to the soldiers of the Wehrmarcht, and this applies not only to weapons, but also to the organization of food and hygiene.


And an attack on a minefield could only be due to the complete failure of intelligence operations. Fortified positions do not arise in one day, and in such cases artillery was used for demining. In addition, the Germans left the front line positions (first defence like) at the beginning of the shelling, which gave time for additional preparation or sending special wechiles
 
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