Soviet content weirdness

[Fulmen]

Sure and ramming a stratbomber with a Me 109 was not suicide? The Luftwaffe told the 300 pilots that they have a 10% chance to survive the impact. Out of the 23 successfull ramming attacks only a handfull of pilots survived the impact.

Flying against thousands of machine guns shooting at you in a formation of hundreds of bombers is also practically suicidal, especially to rookies. Doesn't make the units doing that suicide units.

Sonderkommando Elbe pilots were trained to ram bombers in such a way that they would themselves survive the impact and bail out, return to their airfield and then be able to fly another mission, and several Elbe pilots did just that. The purpose of the Japanese Kamikaze pilots on the other hand was to suicide themselves into Allied vessels. To explain it even simpler, the former is "you have a very high chance of dying in this mission" and the latter is "you will die in this mission". Can't really explain it any simpler than that.

 

[Gort11]

Flying against thousands of machine guns shooting at you in a formation of hundreds of bombers is also practically suicidal, especially to rookies. Doesn't make the units doing that suicide units.

That's not even close to suicidal. "Thousands of machine guns shooting at you in a formation of hundreds of bombers" tactics get you the Schweinfurt-Regensburg raids where German fighters made a horrible mess of the US bombers.

It's not good when you're losing twice as many four-engine bombers than the enemy is single-seat fighters.

 

[DerGrößteRitter]

This phrase
a) does not correspond to reality.
B) Very reminiscent of German propaganda against the USSR about the "Eastern Barbarians".

Now it is not surprising why the USSR in the game is so terrible represented. Maybe your opinion coincides with colleagues from Dice about *fact* that SU swapping a side for a few times?

The Soviet pilots ram their planes to enemy positions only when they were sweeping to the ground in flames, when they were unable to return to the airfield or survive.

They committed air ramming when ammunition ran out. But they did not try to die - the only thing they did was trying to cut off the tail section of the enemy with a screw.

Does it look like jap kamikadze ?

While I agree that anyone other than Japan having kamikazes is ludicrous, this is a ridiculous statement. He never claimed that they actually did this in reality, and this is actually NOT reminiscent of German propaganda. The 'selfless new man' is a staple of Soviet propaganda, and this sort mindset (that of collectivist self sacrifice) was inoculated within the Red Army- of course other nations had a version of this, but the whole 'socialist new man' was very much Soviet.

 

[Skjuld]

That's not even close to suicidal. "Thousands of machine guns shooting at you in a formation of hundreds of bombers" tactics get you the Schweinfurt-Regensburg raids where German fighters made a horrible mess of the US bombers.

It's not good when you're losing twice as many four-engine bombers than the enemy is single-seat fighters.

Elbe was set up in 1945. So said german pilots were facing more than thousands of .50 cal. in bombers. They were going against hundreds of experienced escort fighters PLUS thousands of .50 MGs. Which gave them a piss-poor chance of success (or long-term survival).
BTW, it seems part of the japanese decision to go kamikaze was that even a "normal" mission was suicidal for the badly trained pilots they got, going aganist superior and experienced fighters.
That said, the USSR conducting kamikaze missions is rather laughable

 

[Fulmen]

Elbe was set up in 1945. So said german pilots were facing more than thousands of .50 cal. in bombers. They were going against hundreds of experienced escort fighters PLUS thousands of .50 MGs. Which gave them a piss-poor chance of success (or long-term survival).

This.

And to add to your post, IIRC most of the Elbe pilots were quite young and unseasoned, further greatly increasing their chances of death. Still, it was not meant as a suicide unit.

Looking at the Wiki page*, I did remember that Elbe was active only for a very short period of time, but it actually only flew a single mission:

Adding to the last-ditch nature of this task force, the only mission was flown on 7 April 1945 by a sortie of 180 Bf 109s. While only 15 Allied bombers were attacked in this manner, eight were successfully destroyed.[3][4][5]

"This manner" being ramming.

*I'd link the Wikipedia page but it has the 1935-45 German state flag so can't link it here.

 

[Black5Raven]

, and this is actually NOT reminiscent of German propaganda.

Yeah ?
What about the communist barbaric hordes from asians who do not value life, and whose meaning of life is to kill at any cost and do other things that should not be talked about? Which opposed the educated Germans, the true Aryans who value Christian values and the life and ideals of the Reich. Seems kinda familiar to me.
That was such a popular move in 1941-42.

As the national focus refers to the complete negation of the value of human life, so the propaganda efforts were aimed at putting the opposite side to a level lower than the people.
That's what I mean.

The continuation of this conversation wouldnt make any sense. It does not correspond to the general topic of discussion.

 

[hkrommel]

Yeah ?
What about the communist barbaric hordes from asians who do not value life, and whose meaning of life is to kill at any cost and do other things that should not be talked about? Which opposed the educated Germans, the true Aryans who value Christian values and the life and ideals of the Reich. Seems kinda familiar to me.
That was such a popular move in 1941-42.

As the national focus refers to the complete negation of the value of human life, so the propaganda efforts were aimed at putting the opposite side to a level lower than the people.
That's what I mean.

The continuation of this conversation wouldnt make any sense. It does not correspond to the general topic of discussion.

I'm confused. Are you claiming the fact that German propaganda said the Soviets didn't value human life makes the opposite true? That's not how logic works. The Soviets were notoriously devaluing of human life (as Communist states tend to be, everything must be sacrificed for the collective), regardless of what the Germans happened to say about it.

The kamikaze focus isn't historical and never claims to be. However, with the extent Stalin was able to send foot soldiers rushing to certain death (penal battalions, anyone?) having some air units in a similar vein prompted by New Soviet Man propaganda is far more plausible than lots of other stuff in this game.

 

[Black5Raven]

However, with the extent Stalin was able to send foot soldiers rushing to certain death (penal battalions, anyone?)

So you wanna talk about penal battalions with soldiers and officers who committed minor crimes during war. Which were released from these batalions after several months of service in them, injury, for success in battle with the restoration of the original rank, the return of awards and their payment ?

Which WASNT suicide batalion. Which were equipped, trained and had command, the purpose of which was to accomplish the combat mission - not to kill them all.

And what do you say about the German penalty divisions where solders not have even dreamed of leaving them alive? Or French penalty squads

having some air units in a similar vein prompted by New Soviet Man propaganda is far more plausible

Sure thing. Thats exactly why SU threw pilots into the battle without fuel to return on their airfields bc they all were suppoused to die like a heroes.
Of course, they did not take care of the pilots, did not provide them with the best conditions that they could get, why? They had an endless supply of loyal and disposable
fanatics.

The Soviets were notoriously devaluing of human life (as Communist states tend to be, everything must be sacrificed for the collective)

I do not even see the point of trying to explain something.

 

[hkrommel]

So you wanna talk about penal battalions with soldiers and officers who committed minor crimes during war. Which were released from these batalions after several months of service in them, injury, for success in battle with the restoration of the original rank, the return of awards and their payment ?

Which WASNT suicide batalion. Which were equipped, trained and had command, the purpose of which was to accomplish the combat mission - not to kill them all.

And what do you say about the German penalty divisions where solders not have even dreamed of leaving them alive? Or French penalty squads


Sure thing. Thats exactly why SU threw pilots into the battle without fuel to return on their airfields bc they all were suppoused to die like a heroes.
Of course, they did not take care of the pilots, did not provide them with the best conditions that they could get, why? They had an endless supply of loyal and disposable
fanatics.




I do not even see the point of trying to explain something.

See the first part of my signature. Your post is basically "the Soviets didn't do these things. Look! Over there! GERMANS doing these things!"

That's not an argument.

But just to refute the parts where you actually tried to make a cohesive argument:

Which were released from these batalions after several months of service in them, injury, for success in battle with the restoration of the original rank, the return of awards and their payment ?

Records of this actually happening are sparse, and release was generally only obtained through being wounded (in a way that requires being pulled off the line) or achieving decoration from those records that are available. I'm perfectly open to being corrected on this point since Soviet record-keeping is suspect at the best of times, and what we know about these battalions is in large part based on memoirs or recollections.

Which WASNT suicide batalion. Which were equipped, trained and had command, the purpose of which was to accomplish the combat mission - not to kill them all.

So ordering charges through minefields against fortified positions with SMERSH blocking battalions behind to prevent retreat, rounding up the survivors (assuming there are any) after it's done, and then doing it again isn't suicidal? You literally point to German squads who did the exact same thing as being suicidal, but somehow it's different because these are Soviet?

 

[Black5Raven]

So ordering charges through minefields against fortified positions

with SMERSH blocking battalions behind to prevent retreat, rounding up the survivors (assuming there are any) after it's done, and then doing it again isn't suicidal?

Awesome information, I'm even afraid to ask in what archival documents you managed to get it. Probably in Germans which were made by specific advisor.
Because otherwise I cannot explain how the department of counter-intelligence actions, which were revealing Germans spies and saboteurs were responsible for sending soldiers to death for the sake of death even without their direct presence on the front line and the inability to influence the command, which was subordinate Only to the High command.

The same about previous quote.

Records of this actually happening are sparse, and release was generally only obtained through being wounded (in a way that requires being pulled off the line) or achieving decoration from those records that are available. I'm perfectly open to being corrected on this point since Soviet record-keeping is suspect at the best of times, and what we know about these battalions is in large part based on memoirs or recollections.

After your words about SMERSH, do you think your words are credible? Even if we will be provide archival documents it will not have any sense due to your *its suspect* and I consider this discussion to be meaningless.

 

[Black5Raven]

Also this topic was created to discuss the problems of the USSR in the game, not to clarify relations beetween users.
I would prefer to change the theme and return to original discussion, while this section is not banned due to being *toxic*.

Thats all. Thank for your attention.

 

[hkrommel]

Awesome information, I'm even afraid to ask in what archival documents you managed to get it. Probably in Germans which were made by Gimler himself.
Because otherwise I cannot explain how the department of counter-intelligence actions, which were revealing Germans spies and saboteurs were responsible for sending soldiers to death for the sake of death even without their direct presence on the front line and the inability to influence the command, which was subordinate Only to the High command.

The same about previous quote.

This is utterly incomprehensible. You have yet to address anything with sources of your own. I never said the Germans didn't have penal battalions with extremely low survival rates, but the fact that the Germans did is utterly irrelevant to whether the Soviets valued human life.

After your words about SMERSH, do you think your words are credible? Even if we will be provide archival documents it will not have any sense due to your *its suspect* and I consider this discussion to be meaningless.

If you doubt basic, widely-accepted facts about WWII, based on what the Soviets themselves officially did as a matter of policy (blocking battalions and SMERSH supervising the Shtrafbat), then the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. I await your sourcing of your claim that SMERSH blocking battalions didn't exist.

This whole exchange is textbook nationalist argumentation.

Step 1: Make an illogical (or flat-out wrong) claim to try and make the favored country look good. This was you saying that the Soviets valued human life because the Germans said they didn't in propaganda. When someone refutes it...

Step 2: Deflect. This was you saying, quite plainly, that the Soviets having penal battalions that were used in ways that showed disregard for human life wasn't relevant since the Germans had them too. When someone pushes back on how that isn't a logically valid argument...

Step 3: Obfuscate. Claim things that aren't true, often from the propaganda of the favored country. This was you saying the penal battalions weren't that bad, and didn't engage in near-suicidal tactics. When someone cites common knowledge and/or sources...

Step 4: Shift the burden of proof. Even though you're the one making a claim against common and accepted knowledge outside the nationalist sentiments of those who support your favored country, claim that the other party has the burden of proof, even though you've shown nothing to support your own argument. That's this post. When you think someone will call you out on that...

Also this topic was created to discuss the problems of the USSR in the game, not to clarify relations beetween users.
I would prefer to change the theme and return to original discussion, while this section is not banned due to being *toxic*.

Thats all. Thank for your attention.

Step 5: Retreat. Hope the other party gives up and leaves the discussion as well, in turn leaving the audience with the impression that your side still has some validity. Bonus points if they bought your burden of proof shifting. You won't get that from me.

The original discussion on this topic was whether having an ahistorical branch where the Soviets used pilots similar to the Kamikaze was outlandish or not. Devs responded with their reasoning, but you responded by accusing them of reinforcing German propaganda. Your reasoning was that since the Germans portrayed the Soviets as disregarding human life in their propaganda, then the Soviets must have valued human life too much to ever possibly endorse suicidal or low survival rate tactics, which means the ahistorical focus shouldn't be in the tree. This is logically and historically incorrect, as I pointed out, leading to this discussion. Therefore, this discussion is perfectly relevant, regardless of your opinion on the matter.

Honestly, the fact that you're unironically claiming the Soviet government valued human life speaks for itself.

 

[DerGrößteRitter]

Yeah ?
What about the communist barbaric hordes from asians who do not value life, and whose meaning of life is to kill at any cost and do other things that should not be talked about? Which opposed the educated Germans, the true Aryans who value Christian values and the life and ideals of the Reich. Seems kinda familiar to me.
That was such a popular move in 1941-42.

As the national focus refers to the complete negation of the value of human life, so the propaganda efforts were aimed at putting the opposite side to a level lower than the people.
That's what I mean.

The continuation of this conversation wouldnt make any sense. It does not correspond to the general topic of discussion.

Wtf? How do the lines "The New Soviet Man is selfless, learned, disciplined and healthy; a living triumph over base instincts and false consciousness. Men will gladly lay down their lives for the good of all, and women will bear many children for the future of Soviet society." (straight from Wiki-https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Soviet_national_focus_tree) translate to NS propaganda about the how Russians are subhuman? These are reminiscent of ACTUAL Soviet propaganda of the period- "Man will make it his purpose to master his own feelings, to raise his instincts to the heights of consciousness, to make them transparent, to extend the wires of his will into hidden recesses, and thereby to raise himself to a new plane, to create a higher social biologic type, or, if you please, a superman." -Leon Trotsky in 'Literature and Revolution', "Among the major traits of a new Soviet man was selfless collectivism. The selfless new man was willing to sacrifice his life for good causes."- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man#Selflessness, the source is -Richard Overy, The Dictators: Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, p301-.

The 'negation of the value of human life', as you put it, was very much an aspect of the propaganda of collectivist, totalitarian states in general, and the Soviet Union in particular.

 

[Kazakk]

You make a lot of great points there, I seriously wish the next DLC will be focused on Communist ideology, barbarossa and overhauling the soviet union, I wish to see those 3 things to get overhauled. Speaking of the communist ideology, It's technicaly a weaker version of fascism, in generic trees fascism get extra manpower which is a huge plus, communist path get only extra political power which is not good on the long run as extra manpower.

That and with lots of AI and combat improvements to end all the issues with combat once and for all.
I can feel it, taking 1 year and a half to develop everything and being the best DLC ever released.

 

[Skjuld]

And to add to your post, IIRC most of the Elbe pilots were quite young and unseasoned, further greatly increasing their chances of death. Still, it was not meant as a suicide unit.

Yep. It was not officially suicidal Ofc it's mostly a matter of culture and semantics. Some other ideas were also borderline suicidal (like the Natter, the piloted V-1 or arguably the Komet) but none were officially suicidal. While the Japanese, for (more or less bogus) cultural reasons put a big emphasis on dying heroically, even for no results (piloted torpedo )

So ordering charges through minefields against fortified positions with SMERSH blocking battalions behind to prevent retreat, rounding up the survivors (assuming there are any) after it's done, and then doing it again isn't suicidal? You literally point to German squads who did the exact same thing as being suicidal, but somehow it's different because these are Soviet?

Isn't that a bit hyperbolic ? It sounds like you're conflating a lot of separate elements to make a point...

 

[Alex_brunius]

That's not even close to suicidal. "Thousands of machine guns shooting at you in a formation of hundreds of bombers" tactics get you the Schweinfurt-Regensburg raids where German fighters made a horrible mess of the US bombers.

It's not good when you're losing twice as many four-engine bombers than the enemy is single-seat fighters.

In that raid the number of attacking fighters outnumbered the number of defending bombers, so rather than thousands of machine guns it would just have been a few, less then those on 1 bombers, per each attacking fighter.

The 300+ bombers of the two raids were strung out over a total of 50km long formations, meaning that even if they wanted to support eachother with machine gun fire it would not have been possible even in theory due to limited range and angles.

 

[Skjuld]

That was something like the last gasp of "the bomber will always get through" school of thought. Or, at least, one of the last efforts by its proponents to not look wrong...

 

[hkrommel]

Isn't that a bit hyperbolic ? It sounds like you're conflating a lot of separate elements to make a point...

No. From what I've read the primary purpose of penal battalions was to attack heavily fortified positions when the Soviets didn't want to use regulars due to the low chances of survival. The goal was mainly to soften up the position enough for the regulars to take it, if a decent amount of the battalion survived (or maybe even succeeded), that was a nice bonus. SMERSH battalions did block retreat (apparently they originally used regulars but they would let penal battalion retreat too often), and were also there to surround and police the group when not in combat. Basically they were prison guards with the added duty of stopping retreats.

Of course this understanding, though based on reading historians and articles over the years, could be incorrect. However, I've yet to see any source whatsoever to the contrary, let alone a reputable one.

Mostly I'm focused on countering the blatant nationalism (or ideological dogmatism) evident through the argumentation you see above. I don't really care that much about the penal battalions other than they're a way to point out how the Soviet Union disregarded human life (again, doesn't need to be necessarily suicidal as you point out in the first part of your post), without breaking forum rules by discussing undiscussable subjects. Logic clearly didn't work (pointing out that the Germans saying X in propaganda doesn't make not-X true didn't get anywhere), so I thought some historical examples might.

Edit: @Skayt6 if you'd actually like to respond to anything rather than spamming disagrees (on this and I'm pretty sure every post of mine that's remotely critical of the Soviet Union) I would welcome correction on this point. I eagerly await your sources and argument.

 

[Skjuld]

I get your point, but the reference to SMERSH being in charge is somewhat dubious. That's what Wikipedia says, but it's not always quite reliable... AFAIK, blocking detachments were under NKVD command. Sure, there were SMERSH operatives attached to them for various reasons, primarily POW interrogation (and quite certainly for having one state apparatus minding the other and vice-versa) but they were not commanding directly.

I agree with you about chauvinistic reinterpretation of any stripe being quite irritating, though.

 

[xsmilingbanditx]

While this Thread is an interesting read and critizism is always good input...I suppose everybody, devs included, would be much happier and more interested in actual proposals of improvement.
Just calling this or that wrong or pictures outdated...yeah well. Maybe PDX plain and simply isn't allowed to use some of the stuff in a commercial product (if there even are decent pictures available to stick to that example).
Also, diversity and options are king. In par with balance. Some nation Not doing stuff in the real world doesn't root out the possibility of a player wanting to try it.
E.g. sovjet Kamikaze is unhistorical? Maybe. Player wanting to try it? Not as much...