Soviet content weirdness

[Technoincubus]

Last thread by @anbory have been locked due to derailing but the topic is actually important.
Original posts
1. First of all, let's start with political situation in the Union. So many questions just from start:

-Who are the Trudoviks? IRL, it was a imperial-era party, and never existed in the USSR.
-Why this weird patronyme for Kerensky?
-Why you can hire Kerensky, who's exiled in New York City and also you can hire Rodzaevsky, who's exiled in Harvin
-Why Russian Fascist Party even has any popularity? OTL it was a little club for exiled Whites in Harbin. It never had any popular support in USSR and, speaking in numbers, the game says there were about 3,2 millions of their supporters.
-Why Yezhov and Beria using some weird generic portraits?

2. Then, let's talk about the Great Purges.

Trotskyite Plot was mere a justification for Stalin to arrest the inter-fraction's opposition. Making this whole atmosphere that plot was a real thing is quite odd.

3. Here comes the Civil War.

It's the most weirdest part as this Civil War is completely out of place.

-Why Vlasov is leading this rebellion? Because he was a defect general OTL?
-Why they are using the maritime flag for their rebellion?
-Who are these people suppoting him? Actually, inter-faction struggle had nothing with popular support and nobody would actually start a civil war just to replace elites.

4. Fascist Russia Issue

-Why fascist USSR is Russian Empire? Russian Fascist Party wasn't a pro-monarchist in a first place. They were nationalists, not a monarchists.
-Why Rodzaevky using Romanov family flag? It was used for Imperial flag but actually in the mid-XIX century. XX century Imperial flag was different.
-Russian Empire still has a "Home of the Revolution" spiirt, which is non-sense lore-wise. It also still has Trotskyite Plot spirit but can't neither complete nor bypass the Great Purge focus, locking a lot of valuable focuses.

5. Ukraine issue

-Zombie Khrushchev still leading communist Ukraine after being killed during the Purge. Also, weird patronym again.
- OUN is the Ukraine fascist party with Stephan Bandera as a leader. But actually, there were two OUN parties, Banderovites was a pure non-alligned faction. They wanted to create a Ukraine that will be independent both from communists and nazis. Yeah, their deeds are horrible and we should never forgive this, but cruel deeds is not a option to make them fascist. On the other hand, Melnykovites, leading by Andriy Melnyk, were a pro-Axis OUN faction, who would fit the roles of Ukrainian fascists.


P.S.

I found it odd Lithuanian Memel is not Klaipeda and Polish Danzig is not Gdansk. We have a renaming system now, why wouldn'd you use it?

I also found odd that almost every region of USSR is downgraded in their development. For example, Tomsk, being called the "Athens of Siberia" is a mere rural region, same as Scottish Highlands. Same for Irkutsk, which was famous for a sparse aircraft factories. Most of USSR is a developed rural regions while every Shitsburg in the Western Europe is consediring to be no less than an urban region. It seems that Paradox don't know a thing about Union's geography. I don't either reason why, for example, Tambov is should be the same developed as Caucasus Mountains or Central Asian Steppes.

If Paradox designed it on purpose to limit the Soviet capabilities, they had to limit the civil factories number. USSR industry in the 1936 wasn't as big, as the half of the Western Europe's industry. IRL, Soviets buffed their industry really hard during the wartime and ended the war being an industrial powerhouse. But they weren't as industrialised in 1936.
Germany actually can sign anti-Comintern pact with fascist USSR and Soviets would be both angry and pleased at the same time.

Soviet Union focus to claims Sinkiang land is broken after the WtT. It doesn't include new regions that was added along with this DLC. Also, this is actually impossible to ever get this focus as Reconcile Japan is no longer available in the historical more anymore as you just don't have enough time to ever get this focus before Japan create a faction.

Spoiler

++++
I removed som rough comments about Paradox but overall the post was informative and constructive.
My comments:
Russian Fascist Party numbered 20k people and that numbers considered vastly over exaggerated by researchers with more realistic estimations numbering ~5000 in Harbin.

Purge: we will never know if there were any real generals' conspiracy or Stalin just purged old enemies and political opponents, but AI now have a 75 chance to purge Rokossovsky, which is ahistorical and ridiculous.

Vlasov never had any real political power or influence. He was a traitor, who was hanged as nazi collabrator, but was entirely dependant on nazis, without own political will or agendas.

Kerensky is the worst candidate for democratic government because he lost any respect and authority among all warring sides of Russian Civil War. By 1936 he was just a forgotten old man, despised by both sides of civil war.

Whites, losers of Russian Civil War, almost entirely joined nazis and collabrator police units, but few of them were monarchists, they were the ones to deposed Nicholas v2.0 and a lot of division occured between monarchist minority and republican majority. One of the few White movement generals to refuse nazi collabration was Denikin but he never had any interest in getting political power.

I think that USSR, just like Third Reich, should not have all ideology options simply because just as communist Reich was not possible, fascist USSR was not possible either. There were no support for it. Republic and different influence groups - sure, maybe.

I hope this thread would not be derailed like the last one.

 

[currylambchop]

I think the main problem isn't the minor details as listed here but the fact that the Soviets have the worst tree in the game.

 

[Technoincubus]

I think the main problem isn't the minor details as listed here but the fact that the Soviets have the worst tree in the game.

They are the last to recieve some kind of DLC it seems. With NF tree overhaul

 

[Fulmen]

I found it odd Polish Danzig is not Gdansk.

The Free City of Danzig spoke German, was ruled by Germans, was inhabited by Germans and was internationally known by its historic German name: Danzig. Which part of that sounds Polish to you?

 

[hkrommel]

They are the last to recieve some kind of DLC it seems. With NF tree overhaul

Italy, France, and Poland haven't either. The USSR is definitely the worst one left though, so it'll hopefully get it next. Remember there have only been 3 of 7 majors with a tree overhaul, and after this next DLC it'll be 4 of 7.

 

[N3UTR0N]

You make a lot of great points there, I seriously wish the next DLC will be focused on Communist ideology, barbarossa and overhauling the soviet union, I wish to see those 3 things to get overhauled. Speaking of the communist ideology, It's technicaly a weaker version of fascism, in generic trees fascism get extra manpower which is a huge plus, communist path get only extra political power which is not good on the long run as extra manpower.

 

[Technoincubus]

Italy, France, and Poland haven't either. The USSR is definitely the worst one left though, so it'll hopefully get it next. Remember there have only been 3 of 7 majors with a tree overhaul, and after this next DLC it'll be 4 of 7.

Wait but United and Ready was Poland-focused DLC and featured reworked NF tree. France and Italy sure, should have their own NF tree rework, but IMO USSR was a major WWII participant and ha the most awful and ridiculous NF trees of them all, with USA following. Plus, Paradox usually reworked 2 NF trees per DLC, so we can hope either Italy or France could be covered.

You make a lot of great points there, I seriously wish the next DLC will be focused on Communist ideology, barbarossa and overhauling the soviet union, I wish to see those 3 things to get overhauled. Speaking of the communist ideology, It's technicaly a weaker version of fascism, in generic trees fascism get extra manpower which is a huge plus, communist path get only extra political power which is not good on the long run as extra manpower.

Fascism can provide huge amounts of manpower even to Luxembourg, there was a topic coving it. And commie coups is such a weak definition for ideology that it adds zero immersion when you play reds.

 

[currylambchop]

with USA following

Current US focus tree is better than the new one IMO. Definitely not the second worst of the remaining unreworked trees.

 

[balmung60]

Italy, France, and Poland haven't either. The USSR is definitely the worst one left though, so it'll hopefully get it next. Remember there have only been 3 of 7 majors with a tree overhaul, and after this next DLC it'll be 4 of 7.

I wouldn't just say the worst one left, but also the worst even before the focus tree reworks for majors began. It's just really, really bad in so many ways.

 

[hkrommel]

Wait but United and Ready was Poland-focused DLC

Day 1 DLC is not DLC. It's the members of the dev team responsible for that content having extra time to work on things while other members aren't ready for release. It's a focus tree on release.

France and Italy sure, should have their own NF tree rework, but IMO USSR was a major WWII participant and ha the most awful and ridiculous NF trees of them all, with USA following

I never said they should get them first, just that the USSR hasn't been singled out or anything or that the devs hate the USSR, which is usually where these threads go. It's also pretty much the consensus here that the US tree was the worst out of the release trees, especially since that nation relied so heavily on the naval game, which was not great.

Plus, Paradox usually reworked 2 NF trees per DLC, so we can hope either Italy or France could be covered.

Yeah maybe. If I had to guess they'd rework the Soviets and the Nordics at the same time, but I hope so. Italy's tree was probably, other than Germany, the best on release. However, it's lacking in both plausible and meme alternative paths. France has alternative paths, the tree is just really short so if you survive the initial onslaught there's not much interesting to do. Both trees could use monarchist alternatives. It's hard to say which needs reworking more, but I'll go with France on this one.

but also the worst even before the focus tree reworks for majors began.

I actually ran the math in terms of bonuses a while back and the US had the worst tree. This is obviously compounded by how many US focuses were 70 day wastes of time. Oh you embargoed Germany? That'll sure hurt them with that vast trans-Atlantic trade taking place with the Royal Navy sitting by letting German merchants peacefully sail along.

 

[Technoincubus]

Day 1 DLC is not DLC. It's the members of the dev team responsible for that content having extra time to work on things while other members aren't ready for release. It's a focus tree on release.

From dev diary

So, what does it contain?

• Focus tree.
• 2D art for tanks & planes, complete with flavor names.
• 2D art for ministers, generals and country leaders.
• 3D art for infantry and some more well known tanks and planes
• Some achievements & events.

Devs mostly reworked interlinked Nfs, like China-Japan, all neighboring south baltics, Commonwealth. Now we have US-UK-Mexico in MtG.

USSR have a huge mess of diplomatic NF.

Annex Tannu Tuva - what a hell? 70 days to annex some minor republic is a joke. And it is a pre-requisite for Wr with Japan.
Claims on Baltic are bypassed 90% of time.
Offer Poland Protection could be reached by the time no Poland exist.
Found the PCDI gives you Factory conversion bonus- THE most useless bonus in entire game.
Anti-capitalist/Fasict diplomacy - a whooping 270(!!!) days for NF. Just to get access to NFs of dubious value. All othertrees are years more profitable and useful to get than diplomatic one.
Comintern - located in anti-capitalist diplomacy branch.
Operation Zet - YAY! you get +40 opinion from China(and -50 from ComChi and Japan) - given that opinion have near zero effect on anything in the game that NF competes with Found the PCDI for uselessness.
Expand the Red Fleet - shoved to anti-capitalist diplomacy tree.
And other branches are even more messed up.

 

[Saint Gwynllyw]

I still feel the purge should give negative military experience-. That way you are stuck with the default templates for the Winter War and potentially the start of WW2, simulating the poor military leadership of the USSR until around 1942 a bit more realistically.

 

[Fulmen]

That way you are stuck with the default templates for the Winter War and potentially the start of WW2, simulating the poor military leadership of the USSR until around 1942 a bit more realistically.

Almost all the starting templates in the game are wrong, but it's especially inaccurate with Russia because in the Winter War they still used ~20k man strong divisions, and I'm pretty sure they had a similar composition in 1936. Only afterwards in 1940 or 41 did they downsize them to something like 6-10k man divisions.

Ironically though, bigger divisions (40cw to be precise) are a no-brainer in this game if you're mainly using them to attack. IRL such a large force under a single division was cumbersome.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Almost all the starting templates in the game are wrong, but it's especially inaccurate with Russia because in the Winter War they still used ~20k man strong divisions, and I'm pretty sure they had a similar composition in 1936. Only afterwards in 1940 or 41 did they downsize them to something like 6-10k man divisions.

Ironically though, bigger divisions (40cw to be precise) are a no-brainer in this game if you're mainly using them to attack. IRL such a large force under a single division was cumbersome.

It's pretty clear IMO that the design of HoI4 intentionally made large template better so that you can progress from worse to better templates as you earn more XP from fighting ( Small -> Large ). Even if it's opposite to the historical development it works in the context of a game. It would be quite odd to spend XP to make templates smaller and remove stuff from them to make them better at fighting, especially when you have small brigade sized garrison/cavalry units in the game ( which would be some very powerful combat units in that case ) ...

Personally I think HoI4 went one step to far when implementing a division designer with 30 slots in it. Something closer to HoI3 would have worked fine.


About Soviet yes there are alot of stuff that's odd, and we can add more to the list like how convoys are frequently used to supply units in Vladivostok. The things that hurt the Soviet the most though balance wise are missing things that should hurt Germany but doesn't, like Germany getting more supply as they spread out along a extended front in Soviet and Germany being able to use 100% of occupied Industry.

 

[hrun]

-Who are the Trudoviks? IRL, it was a imperial-era party, and never existed in the USSR.

What would be a better name for a Democracy faction in 1930s Russia? Not trying to be snarky here, genuine question.

Why this weird patronyme for Kerensky?

What's wrong with it? At the very least it matches his name as listed on wiki.

Why you can hire Kerensky, who's exiled in New York City and also you can hire Rodzaevsky, who's exiled in Harvin

So you can flip ideologies as Russia. Is it a perfect system? No, but it'll surely be changed when Russia gets its NF overhaul.

Why Russian Fascist Party even has any popularity? OTL it was a little club for exiled Whites in Harbin. It never had any popular support in USSR and, speaking in numbers, the game says there were about 3,2 millions of their supporters.

Possibly to simulate/represent the severe disaffection with the Soviet Regime that was present in regions like Belarus and Ukraine? The invading Germans were quite famously greeted as liberators by many upon their initial invasion, before the locals realised the truth about the Nazis.

Trotskyite Plot was mere a justification for Stalin to arrest the inter-fraction's opposition. Making this whole atmosphere that plot was a real thing is quite odd.

I'd assume it's a way to make sure the player doesn't try to cheese the system. If there was no plot, then players would surely always take the unhistoric options and purge nobody, thus keeping the officials and generals. Again, it makes sense given the current state of the NFs, but something different will most liekly be done with the purge when the rework rolls around.

 

[kaguravitro]

In your criteria theres one mod that almost have a decent focus tree for urss?

 

[Technoincubus]

What would be a better name for a Democracy faction in 1930s Russia? Not trying to be snarky here, genuine question.

Irony is that there were no democratic or fascist party during that period. Not even a proto-party or any reseblance of it, Like Republicans and Democrats are two parties but they are both two sides of democratic ideology. All opposition have been squashed, leaving only internal conflicts within party, so only option is to invent democratic or fascist parties.

So you can flip ideologies as Russia. Is it a perfect system? No, but it'll surely be changed when Russia gets its NF overhaul.

I am more amused that even when decision system have been implemented and countries had options to shift ideologies constantly, without hiring some impossible minister USSR tree have been left perfectly intact, with old system and only rudimentary changed for new decision menu, left with "prospect X" at best. They even have duplicating missions, for example for evacuation, USSR have national focus AND a decision, which makes exactly the same.

Possibly to simulate/represent the severe disaffection with the Soviet Regime that was present in regions like Belarus and Ukraine? The invading Germans were quite famously greeted as liberators by many upon their initial invasion, before the locals realised the truth about the Nazis.

That was severely exaggerated, mostly thanks to Beevor and his "unwashed mongoloid hordes" type of publications. Police departments recruited mostly from local ethnic separatist sentiment, remnants of white emigrants and cossacks, but not much from "core" regions. And there were no fascist parties even in theories, only local press in support for occupation administration. Even rectuitment of Vlasov's collabrators had no relation to fascist party and most were a rag-tag opponents to soviet regime or returning white movement members like Shkuro or Krasnov. Fascist Party acted in Harbin and other chinese cities where members of white movement fled after their defeat in civil war. And even there Russian Fascist Party was not as popular as Rodzaevskiy tried to present.

I'd assume it's a way to make sure the player doesn't try to cheese the system. If there was no plot, then players would surely always take the unhistoric options and purge nobody, thus keeping the officials and generals. Again, it makes sense given the current state of the NFs, but something different will most liekly be done with the purge when the rework rolls around.

Purge now is extremely weak. It is a four-decision event, while in reality it was a major event, effecting all Soviet politics and war effort. Current penalties for Purging are laughable, and largely could be ignored and bypassed without a lot of problem. You get immensely more by purging than not purging. And not purging cuts you from land doctrine bonus\reinforcement speed(!), bonuses to rockets and nukes(!!) and research slot(!!!). By not purging you get some mediocre ministers and a decent Field Marshal.

 

[Pigzooka]

The Free City of Danzig spoke German, was ruled by Germans, was inhabited by Germans and was internationally known by its historic German name: Danzig. Which part of that sounds Polish to you?

I think you are misunderstanding the suggestion. The OP wasn't saying that the Danzig state should be renamed to Gdansk; they were saying that once the Poles got control of it, it should be renamed to Gdansk, using the game's dank state renaming system. I agree that Danzig was a German city at the beginning of WW2. However, once the Poles got ahold of it after the end of the war, they renamed it to Gdansk. Having Polish Danzig be renamed would grant more plausibility, because they certainly wouldn't leave it with the same name.

 

[Bouchart]

I still think it's odd that Danzig starts as a part of Poland. It probably would be better as a puppet of Poland.

 

[Fulmen]

I think you are misunderstanding the suggestion. The OP wasn't saying that the Danzig state should be renamed to Gdansk; they were saying that once the Poles got control of it, it should be renamed to Gdansk, using the game's dank state renaming system. I agree that Danzig was a German city at the beginning of WW2. However, once the Poles got ahold of it after the end of the war, they renamed it to Gdansk. Having Polish Danzig be renamed would grant more plausibility, because they certainly wouldn't leave it with the same name.

The city is already a part of Poland at the start of the game so this is not possible.

The devs chose not to implement the historical Free City of Danzig and it's been that way in every HoI, for better or worse.