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Levens

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A few days ago was announced new expansion and two new patches: the 1.10 ‘Collie’, and the 1.11 ‘Barbarossa’. So, should we be waiting for new focus trees for Italy and USSR? (I'm pretty sure, new tree for Soviets will come out with 1.11, but what about Italy?)
 
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Iskulya

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There have already been over a dozen threads about this including multiple ones on the front page alone.

No real doubt the Soviet Union is coming in 1.11 sometime next year. It stands to reason Italy will probably come too, given that all the countries that would otherwise be 'bundled' with Italy will now be complete as of the release of Battle of the Bosporus unless you count irrelevant nonentities like Austria and Albania that will just get eaten anyway.

I don't think paradox will delay Italy to a separate DLC just so that they can include Austria with it. I think it will come in 1.11. My guess might be something like Soviet Union, Poland, and Finland. There is the "no DLC for DLC" but 1. we're seeing that bucked in this trend with the free update to Yugoslavia's tree 2. Poland would only count in the loosest sense because it was both free for everyone and present from day 1, so it only really counts as DLC in a very technical, marketing sense. In reality it's just a base part of the game, so it's fair game for a rework imo. Plus it needs it.

I also have a hard time seeing how Finland would really strongly tie into potential content for Sweden, Norway, and Denmark to an extent that would demand all four be designed at the same time, so I think Finland can and should be done separately from them so as not to delay it even further. I think having Italy, USSR, Poland, and Finland would make for a fantastic expansion.
 
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GSS_

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I don't think Italy and USSR will be in the same expansion. For now, majors have been reworked in separate DLC's (except EEUU and Japan which share being a "naval nation"). Italy and USSR are too opposite to each other to share the same DLC, IMO. And yes, 'Barbarossa' will be the USSR rework. About Italy, could be reworked in Collie (?) or be the last major nation to be reworked.

I also have a hard time seeing how Finland would really strongly tie into potential content for Sweden, Norway, and Denmark to an extent that would demand all four be designed at the same time, so I think Finland can and should be done separately from them so as not to delay it even further.

Probably we'll get a 'Scandinavian DLC' which includes Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. I don't get why Finland should be done separately. Although Finland has a more important role (Winter War), Denmark and Norway could be the new "Netherlands" trying to resist the german invasion, as Finland did with the USSR.
 
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Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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Probably we'll get a 'Scandinavian DLC' which includes Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. I don't get why Finland should be done separately. Although Finland has a more important role (Winter War), Denmark and Norway could be the new "Netherlands" trying to resist the german invasion, as Finland did with the USSR.

Denmark collapsed in hours and Norway keeled over in weeks (with the Norwegian heartland falling within days). Sweden played both sides and didn't fight. Meanwhile Finland fought during every year of WW2, 1939-45 (Interim Peace March 1940-June 1941), caused 1.5-2 million casualties, destroyed or took out of action c. 3k-3.5k tanks and 3k-3.5k aircraft. Yeah, I don't really see how Finland would quite fit into the same expansion with the other Nordic countries. She would however very much fit into the same expansion with the USSR, what with the latter trying, and failing, to annex (or possibly puppet instead of annexing, c. 1943 onwards due to Western pressure) the country throughout the entire war.
 
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GSS_

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Denmark collapsed in hours and Norway keeled over in weeks. Sweden played both sides and didn't fight. Meanwhile Finland fought during every year of WW2, 1939-45 (Interim Peace March 1940-June 1941), caused 1.5-2 million casualties, destroyed or took out of action c. 3k-3.5k tanks and 3k-3.5k aircraft. Yeah, I don't really see how Finland would quite fit into the same expansion with the other Nordic countries. She would however very much fit into the same expansion with the USSR, what with the latter trying, and failing, to annex (or likely puppet instead c. 1943 onwards due to Western pressure) the country throughout the entire war.

Following the historical path what you said make sense but knowing the fascination of Paradox for Alternate Focus Trees (which I enjoy a lot) it wouldn't seem strange to see a DLC with the Scandinavian countries, including Finland. If they do Finland with USSR then the other Scandinavian countries will have less sense.
 

Iskulya

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Following the historical path what you said make sense but knowing the fascination of Paradox for Alternate Focus Trees (which I enjoy a lot) it wouldn't seem strange to see a DLC with the Scandinavian countries, including Finland. If they do Finland with USSR then the other Scandinavian countries will have less sense.

Why, though? Are Finland's social, economic, and political ties to the Nordic countries such that they really warrant the design of Finland's focus tree being subordinated to a broader direction for the Scandinavian countries in the game? I imagine @Fulmen could probably fill us in here, I admit to not knowing much about Finnish history.

I think there is a stronger argument for doing the opposite, that Finland's focus tree should be designed primarily around what Finland will do about the Russian threat. Probably one of these alt-history paths will involve a Scandinavian alliance as one option among many, but I think the Russian angle here predominates over any nordic considerations.

We really don't know exactly how a reworked Soviet tree will look, but there are essentially three possibilities. 1. A reworked tree that only offers different forms of communism or socialism. 2. A tree that offers liberal-democratic, monarchist, and fascist options despite being wildly unrealistic 3. Some combination of the first two. But, regardless of how they actually go, there really is no kind of ideology that would rule Russia that wouldn't be interested in conquering Finland on some pretext or another. On the communist side, Stalin, Trotsky, and Bukharin all would have had a vested interest in conquering Finland.

You have to recall that Finland was part of the Russian Empire, and following the Russian Revolution it had its own civil war between communists and anti-communists, so even a potential communist leader of the USSR not driven so overtly by imperialistic ambition would have a strong ideological motivation to go after Finland.

Finland's choices in a potential focus tree would mainly revolve around how it is going to deal with the threat of Russia. In a communist branch, this would probably just be outright supplication, that by aligning itself with the Soviets that they can pre-empt aggression. In a hypothetical allied branch, I can imagine it would probably involve some tough diplomatic wrangling about how Finland's membership in the allies could pre-empt Russian aggression.

What I'm really most interested in is a more historical option. Being an avid player of MP, it would be nice to see some kind of gimmick or mechanism that gave the Finns a real chance of stopping the Soviets, or at least, some mechanism which incentivizes the Soviet player towards a negotiated peace rather than full blown invasion and annexation, so that the Continuation War can happen. I'd really like to see Finland become a fun and interesting choice for historical MP games more so than it is now.

So the main part of Finland's content really is basically a reaction of sorts to Russia's position and what Russia does. If anything, I think Finland's content would probably suffer from being artificially pigeonholed in with the Nordic countries rather than being jointly developed with Soviet content. I think focus trees for Norway, Sweden, and Denmark can just as well be handled as a country pack like the one we are getting in a few weeks.
 
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freejones912

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There have already been over a dozen threads about this including multiple ones on the front page alone.

No real doubt the Soviet Union is coming in 1.11 sometime next year. It stands to reason Italy will probably come too, given that all the countries that would otherwise be 'bundled' with Italy will now be complete as of the release of Battle of the Bosporus unless you count irrelevant nonentities like Austria and Albania that will just get eaten anyway.

I don't think paradox will delay Italy to a separate DLC just so that they can include Austria with it. I think it will come in 1.11. My guess might be something like Soviet Union, Poland, and Finland. There is the "no DLC for DLC" but 1. we're seeing that bucked in this trend with the free update to Yugoslavia's tree 2. Poland would only count in the loosest sense because it was both free for everyone and present from day 1, so it only really counts as DLC in a very technical, marketing sense. In reality it's just a base part of the game, so it's fair game for a rework imo. Plus it needs it.

I also have a hard time seeing how Finland would really strongly tie into potential content for Sweden, Norway, and Denmark to an extent that would demand all four be designed at the same time, so I think Finland can and should be done separately from them so as not to delay it even further. I think having Italy, USSR, Poland, and Finland would make for a fantastic expansion.
Those have been exactly my thoughts on the soviet expansion. Poland and Finland are highly relevant to the Soviets. Norway, Denmark, and Sweden are not. They would best be served in their own dedicated expansion interacting far more with the western powers than eastern ones.

Though at some point they need to do Belgium, but god knows what you could bundle them with.
 
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freejones912

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Why, though? Are Finland's social, economic, and political ties to the Nordic countries such that they really warrant the design of Finland's focus tree being subordinated to a broader direction for the Scandinavian countries in the game? I imagine @Fulmen could probably fill us in here, I admit to not knowing much about Finnish history.

I think there is a stronger argument for doing the opposite, that Finland's focus tree should be designed primarily around what Finland will do about the Russian threat. Probably one of these alt-history paths will involve a Scandinavian alliance as one option among many, but I think the Russian angle here predominates over any nordic considerations.

We really don't know exactly how a reworked Soviet tree will look, but there are essentially three possibilities. 1. A reworked tree that only offers different forms of communism or socialism. 2. A tree that offers liberal-democratic, monarchist, and fascist options despite being wildly unrealistic 3. Some combination of the first two. But, regardless of how they actually go, there really is no kind of ideology that would rule Russia that wouldn't be interested in conquering Finland on some pretext or another. On the communist side, Stalin, Trotsky, and Bukharin all would have had a vested interest in conquering Finland.

You have to recall that Finland was part of the Russian Empire, and following the Russian Revolution it had its own civil war between communists and anti-communists, so even a potential communist leader of the USSR not driven so overtly by imperialistic ambition would have a strong ideological motivation to go after Finland.

Finland's choices in a potential focus tree would mainly revolve around how it is going to deal with the threat of Russia. In a communist branch, this would probably just be outright supplication, that by aligning itself with the Soviets that they can pre-empt aggression. In a hypothetical allied branch, I can imagine it would probably involve some tough diplomatic wrangling about how Finland's membership in the allies could pre-empt Russian aggression.

What I'm really most interested in is a more historical option. Being an avid player of MP, it would be nice to see some kind of gimmick or mechanism that gave the Finns a real chance of stopping the Soviets, or at least, some mechanism which incentivizes the Soviet player towards a negotiated peace rather than full blown invasion and annexation, so that the Continuation War can happen. I'd really like to see Finland become a fun and interesting choice for historical MP games more so than it is now.

So the main part of Finland's content really is basically a reaction of sorts to Russia's position and what Russia does. If anything, I think Finland's content would probably suffer from being artificially pigeonholed in with the Nordic countries rather than being jointly developed with Soviet content. I think focus trees for Norway, Sweden, and Denmark can just as well be handled as a country pack like the one we are getting in a few weeks.
History itself gives us the answer to the nordic countries. Finland was part of the war in the east, and Norway, Sweden, and Denmark were part of the war in the west.
 
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brissyger

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What I'm really most interested in is a more historical option. Being an avid player of MP, it would be nice to see some kind of gimmick or mechanism that gave the Finns a real chance of stopping the Soviets, or at least, some mechanism which incentivizes the Soviet player towards a negotiated peace rather than full blown invasion and annexation, so that the Continuation War can happen. I'd really like to see Finland become a fun and interesting choice for historical MP games more so than it is now.

I would like to see a rework of peace deals and I think it fits in with what you have said here. If you are a minor and your war is going well against a major there is currently no option to negotiate a peace deal. You can only offer a peace when you have lost a certain number of VP and quite often the AI won't accept as they want to eat you completely. Your only other option is to outright win the war which as a minor is usually unrealistic.

As for the focus of the next pack I would expect Soviets, Poland and Finland for sure. While the devs have said that the packs don't have to be tied together geographically I don't see how they are tied together thematically either.
 

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Denmark collapsed in hours and Norway keeled over in weeks (with the Norwegian heartland falling within days). Sweden played both sides and didn't fight. Meanwhile Finland fought during every year of WW2, 1939-45 (Interim Peace March 1940-June 1941), caused 1.5-2 million casualties, destroyed or took out of action c. 3k-3.5k tanks and 3k-3.5k aircraft. Yeah, I don't really see how Finland would quite fit into the same expansion with the other Nordic countries. She would however very much fit into the same expansion with the USSR, what with the latter trying, and failing, to annex (or possibly puppet instead of annexing, c. 1943 onwards due to Western pressure) the country throughout the entire war.
How long each country lasted is a bit of a strange thing to look at when determining which countries should go in which DLCs. Even more so in a sandbox game exploring alternate histories. Heck, even in Hearts of Iron III it was possible for the Allies to keep the Germans out of Norway.

The Nordic countries, including Finland, have very strong historical and cultural ties, which means it would make sense for them to be put into the same DLC or country pack. Actually, thinking about it, it makes more sense to tie Finland with Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, but I don't know how much diplomacy and interaction there was between the Finns and the USSR in 1936-1940.

But the Finns and the Soviets fought, I hear you say. Sure, but consider the other focus trees that have been released where two countries at war are in separate packs. Germany and the Netherlands, for instance.

Also, not having Finland in the Soviet DLC would free a slot to allow for another country to be in that pack. Maybe make some alternate history focus trees for a released Ukraine and/or Belarus.

Can't wait for PDX to finish trees so they can start focusing on actually improving the game instead of just throwing focus trees at it..
They can do more than one thing at a time, you know. I doubt the AI programmer(s) get sent home on paid leave just because some other team in some other office is making focus trees.
 
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batata1

First Lieutenant
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Jul 30, 2014
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The game has obvious problems. In single player, you cannot play a major if you know what you're doing. Even on elite mode or with full sliders, the AI is so bad you win with your eyes shut.
*And* it's ahistorical. AI Germany barely builds tanks.
*And* there are several mods that provide a more challenging and interesting gameplay. Expert AI, World Ablaze, Total War.

Paradox's job is to make money, not to please the small minority of players with 1,000+ hours. But it's not surprising there are complaints every time DLC comes out without tackling these core problems. Especially when some of the new features are a bit ridiculous. Turkey didn't fight in WW2, and the spies in La Resistance are totally over-powered relative to reality, the way they can materially change a country's stability or even cause a coup.
 
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