Southern Revolutions Mod for V:R

[CSABadass]

Some thoughts about the Independence War.

As we probably all know, Vicky's war simulation leaves a lot to be desired for ACW fighting (battles like Fredricksburg or Chancellorsville are unwinnable for the South in Vicky), which winds up creating odd winning strategies like the one that tricks the US AI into marching all its armies out west, then blitzing into DC and Philly.

While this is somewhat realistic, I guess (if Lincoln and his generals had been that dunderheaded, the North prob'ly would've given up that quick), it doesn't feel realistic. It feels like exploiting a game mechanic, especially since it can be repeated so easily as to make the Independence War completely dull.

I suggest the Rebel Army be given a bonus to defensive warfare for the duration of the ACW. This wouldn't affect the blitzkrieg for those who want to use it, but it will make a more realistic war possible if Marse Robert can actually defend Northern Virginia with 60,000 versus 120,000 led by Anonymous General.

It'd also make the alternate routes of "1864 election" and "foreign intervention" much more feasible.

Based on my lifelong study of The War, I am of the mind that the South either had to win quickly, or not at all. In game or out, a CSA that hasn't wrapped things up by November 1864 is doomed. The North's will to fight must be broken, and soon, and nothing I can think of short of capturing (or at least threatening) its capital could do the trick. Therefore, I'm of the opinion that SR's forcing Dixie to go for the early knockout in the East is historical, not odd, and WAD.

I've seen the South fight and win battles like Fredericksburg, with and without SR. Give them a not-hopeless troop ratio fighting on favorable ground plus a huge edge in leadership and some artillery, and they'll win that. The CSA just can't keep winning those battles forever, or the Union's edges in pretty much everything are brought to bear and they lose.

I don't understand your use of Chancellorsville as an example of fighting a "defensive war." Jackson's critical Flank March was clearly the South on the offensive. Had Lee tried to fight a defensive battle that day, Hooker would've ground the ANV to powder.

I do agree the Union AI seems foolish to pull troops from DC and send them to thwart a Confederate invasion of the midwest, at least on the surface. Closer consideration reveals what a panic that would've caused in the North, not to mention the political pressure for Lincoln to do something about it. So the AI's moves seem stupid, but to me, they're a good simulation of the panic moves the North could've (and perhaps would've) made had a Southern army been threatening Chicago, particuarly early in The War when Lincoln didn't have enough good generalship around him to talk him out of such.

(As a side note, I've played more than a few games where the Union AI doesn't take the western bait. Very short games there were, indeed.)

I guess what it boils down to for me is that in real history, the South fought a defensive war and lost. If a player does the same in SR, history SHOULD repeat itself, or else SR's an alternate history mod.

The two best chances the South had to win The War were Lee's two invasions of the North--offensive moves both. Lee made those gambles because he knew those were the CSA's best (and only) chances to win. Who am I to argue with Robert E. Lee's assessment of things?

I totally understand and sympathize with your longing for a major, epic ACW, but the brutal fact is the two sides are just too mismatched for a long war to end in anything but defeat for the South. Adding artificial bonuses to Dixie is ahistorical, and that I have no interest in doing in SR.

As for foreign intervention, that (aside from the Trent Affair, where the event is scripted accordingly) was always keyed on the South's ability to demonstrate its ability to defeat the North on its own ground...something like capturing DC and Philly, for instance.

My own assumption is foreign recognition is already factored into the "A House Divided?" event. The North doesn't hang it up just because the South holds two cities whilst on the end of very, very long supply lines; cities the Union will doubtlessly recapture when its numbers are brought to bear. What makes them tap out is the accompanying threat of European intervention from a now suitably impressed Britain and France. (Hmmmm, maybe I should rewrite the event description to make this explicit.)

Please rest assured I greatly appreciate your suggestions, but I just don't feel they work for SR. I hope the mod's ever-expanding list of postwar goodies compensate for a (necessary, IMO) shortening of the War to Curb Yankee Arrogance.

 

[unmerged(19063)]

I've seen the South fight and win battles like Fredericksburg, with and without SR. Give them a not-hopeless troop ratio fighting on favorable ground plus a huge edge in leadership and some artillery, and they'll win that. The CSA just can't keep winning those battles forever, or the Union's edges in pretty much everything are brought to bear and they lose.

I don't understand your use of Chancellorsville as an example of fighting a "defensive war." Jackson's critical Flank March was clearly the South on the offensive. Had Lee tried to fight a defensive battle that day, Hooker would've ground the ANV to powder.

I mentioned Chancellorsville not as a 'defensive war' thing, but as a "Dixie pulls off a victory despite being outnumbered 2-to-1", which I almost never see, especially not to the extent Lee and fellows pulled it off in the real war.

What I usually see is one lopsided battle that the CS barely manages to win (offensive or defensive, forts, generals, artillery, doesn't matter), then the whole front collapses when the second battle wipes out the ANV. Something like the Seven Days-Northern Virginia-Maryland campaign chain just seems impossible when every non-60K-vs-10k battle is either defeat or Phyrric.

I do agree the Union AI seems foolish to pull troops from DC and send them to thwart a Confederate invasion of the midwest, at least on the surface. Closer consideration reveals what a panic that would've caused in the North, not to mention the political pressure for Lincoln to do something about it. So the AI's moves seem stupid, but to me, they're a good simulation of the panic moves the North could've (and perhaps would've) made had a Southern army been threatening Chicago, particuarly early in The War when Lincoln didn't have enough good generalship around him to talk him out of such.

That's true, but I still doubt the Washington garrison would be put down to one understrength division with Lee standing in Northern Virginia with 60,000+, even with the threat on the Ohio.

I guess what it boils down to for me is that in real history, the South fought a defensive war and lost. If a player does the same in SR, history SHOULD repeat itself, or else SR's an alternate history mod.

But the South held on until 1865, if just barely. And it inflicted terrible losses on the Northern Army the entire time. In my experience in Vicky, the Armies of Virginia and Kentucky melt away when the 140,000 Union stacks hit and then the Yanks just waltz all over the place. You're lucky to see New Years' 1864.

Actually, in my experience, if I'm not following the Guide, offensive or defensive just changes whether Dixie is driven down in Winter '63 or Summer '64. Not that the fighting ends there. The fighting's over by late '62-early '63. The rest of the time is waiting for the US AI to realize "Hey, there's no-one in that province!"

The two best chances the South had to win The War were Lee's two invasions of the North--offensive moves both. Lee made those gambles because he knew those were the CSA's best (and only) chances to win. Who am I to argue with Robert E. Lee's assessment of things?

I totally understand and sympathize with your longing for a major, epic ACW, but the brutal fact is the two sides are just too mismatched for a long war to end in anything but defeat for the South.

Rest assured I'm in agreement on this. At the same time, though, I'd accept going down in flames a few times if it meant The War was more than "BAM Dixie wins!" or "BAM Union wins!"

And even then, Sharpsburg was September '62, Gettysburg, July '63. Try to play defensive that long and you're screwed in Vicky.

Adding artificial bonuses to Dixie is ahistorical, and that I have no interest in doing in SR.

I consider it less ahistorical, more patching a fault in the game's battle system. But, if that's how you've decided, I won't be raising a fuss about it.

As for foreign intervention...

Yeah, I realized that shortly after I made the post. I agree a mention of the Euros interfering would be nice.

Please rest assured I greatly appreciate your suggestions, but I just don't feel they work for SR. I hope the mod's ever-expanding list of postwar goodies compensate for a (necessary, IMO) shortening of the War to Curb Yankee Arrogance.

Oh, don't worry, they do. At least now Dixie can survive more than five years if it wins in the first place!

 

[HMS Enterprize]

I guess what it boils down to for me is that in real history, the South fought a defensive war and lost. If a player does the same in SR, history SHOULD repeat itself, or else SR's an alternate history mod.

The two best chances the South had to win The War were Lee's two invasions of the North--offensive moves both. Lee made those gambles because he knew those were the CSA's best (and only) chances to win. Who am I to argue with Robert E. Lee's assessment of things?

I do enjoy reading opinions on the ACW...they are never in short supply and almost always differ.

Interesting that you characterise the war as a defensive war (you most likely know much more than I) as a short while ago I was reading that Davis' wanted to pursue a strategy that was very defensive and akin to the war of independence in that he favoured a 'space for time' strategy, hoping for a prolonged conflict in an attempt to exhaust the Union as they Continentals did the British.

Yet, he supported Lee's decision to take the fight to the enemy and try to force a resolution even though he had misgivings on the wisdom of said strategy. (Quite a testament to Lee (and Davis) that he let his General conduct the war as he felt best)

Quite an interesting debate (that I had with myself), trying to reconcile the general superiority of the defensive with the need to win quickly, which meant offensives that were a risky gamble in the face of superior forces :wacko:

 

[CSABadass]

I mentioned Chancellorsville not as a 'defensive war' thing, but as a "Dixie pulls off a victory despite being outnumbered 2-to-1", which I almost never see, especially not to the extent Lee and fellows pulled it off in the real war.

What I usually see is one lopsided battle that the CS barely manages to win (offensive or defensive, forts, generals, artillery, doesn't matter), then the whole front collapses when the second battle wipes out the ANV. Something like the Seven Days-Northern Virginia-Maryland campaign chain just seems impossible when every non-60K-vs-10k battle is either defeat or Phyrric.

That's true, but I still doubt the Washington garrison would be put down to one understrength division with Lee standing in Northern Virginia with 60,000+, even with the threat on the Ohio.

I consider it less ahistorical, more patching a fault in the game's battle system. But, if that's how you've decided, I won't be raising a fuss about it.

Oh, don't worry, they do. At least now Dixie can survive more than five years if it wins in the first place!

1) My apologies on misreading your Chancellorsville example. Winning at 2-1 odds under most circumstances just seems beyond the Ricky combat engine. I'm not sure how PI *could* script such a "perfect" battle. I know I can't mod it.

2) One thing I think Ricky simulates poorly is the US mobilizes much, much faster in game than it did in real life. To borrow Shelby Foote's famed analogy, the North's "other hand" comes around right from the start. This is something I *would* like to mod, but I have yet to devise a way to (essentially) force the Union AI not to do everything it can to win. To be honest, since (as you rightly point out) we all know a way to panic the Union AI and beat it as it is, I'm not sure how much of a priority it should be to make it even more easily beaten.

3) The DC garrison was woefully understrength when Jubal Early paid it a little visit in 1864, even without any sort of CSA threat in Ohio, so there *is* historical precedent for it.

4) Thanks for the kind words re: the mod! We might see the problem with different causes, but I think we are in essential agreement as to what it is. Moreover, I think we both wish more could be done to fix it. Maybe I'll come up with something someday.

 

[CSABadass]

Yet, he supported Lee's decision to take the fight to the enemy and try to force a resolution even though he had misgivings on the wisdom of said strategy. (Quite a testament to Lee (and Davis) that he let his General conduct the war as he felt best)

Perhaps Lee's greatest gift in terms of fighting the ACW was he was the one general who knew how to talk to Jefferson Davis. Alone among Confederate commanders, Lee knew how to kiss the President's ass and make him think Lee's ideas were his own. If, say, Patrick Cleburne or Nathan Bedford Forrest--heck, even Joe Johnston--had been similarly abled, how different The War might have been.

 

[HMS Enterprize]

2) One thing I think Ricky simulates poorly is the US mobilizes much, much faster in game than it did in real life. To borrow Sheby Foote's famed analogy, the North's "other hand" comes around right from the start. This is something I *would* like to mod, but I have yet to devise a way to (essentially) force the Union AI not to do everything it can to win.

Perhaps you can edit the parties (or add new similar parties under the same name) to anti-military (perhaps even pacifism), at least pops can not be changed to soldier pops.

Then as the war goes on, activate a new party (with the same name perhaps) with pro-military.

Might work...perhaps... only way I can think of to get around it at the moment.

 

[unmerged(19063)]

Hi, it's me again. I'm running some hands-off games to test my defense bonus theory and have a couple things to report.

1. The "CS buys land from Mexico" event should not occur until after the War is won. Otherwise, if the CS loses, the US rolls into the former Mexican land too and gets it free when the CS collapses. Realistic, maybe. But still, might be too likely to occur for an ahistorical sequence.

2. The CS AI doesn't know to go for DC and Philly. It did manage to capture DC, but then just waited for several months until the Yanks pushed them out. Maybe an AI-only event for rebel victory if they take just DC?

Also, results of Defense Bonus Test #1:

The CS blitzed early, taking Kentucky (which seceded), half of Missouri and West Virginia before beginning to fall back. The US focused on the west, and the CS had lost modern Arizona when Mexico agreed to sell territory (a fix needed here, at least. Would Mexico really sell with the Union Army on its border?). A lot of back-and-forth in Northern Virginia and Kentucky, with the Rebs taking DC in mid-'63. The war ended in November 1864.

Last pic I snagged before the CS surrendered. Blue dots are what the Union took between the pic time and the end.

EDIT: If you would rather I take my DBT-ing to a different thread, just say so.

 

[CSABadass]

1) I'll adjust that for the AI.

2) How many Union troops were in Philly? The AI won't attack unless the odds are at least somewhat favorable. If the city was wide-open and the CSA AI didn't budge then that can be fixed, but if not, all that can be done is to script the CSA to make suicidal attacks--a solution worse than the problem.

3) I think the solution might be a smaller window for the Sonora/Chihuahua event to fire. I'll take a look at that.

4) You may proceed here with the DBT as you see fit. Not like this thread has seen much action of late, so it's not exactly drowning out all the other in-depth discussions. Just to be clear, it's still something I'm not going to add to the mod, but feel free to talk about modding the mod as you wish.

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[unmerged(19063)]

2) How many Union troops were in Philly? The AI won't attack unless the odds are at least somewhat favorable. If the city was wide-open and the CSA AI didn't budge then that can be fixed, but if not, all that can be done is to script the CSA to make suicidal attacks--a solution worse than the problem.

I've run it a couple times. Even if Philly is lightly defended or wide open, it looks like the CS AI would rather take more of Maryland. I think it's trying to protect its flanks, which is good, except when taking Philly is its only way to win.

4) You may proceed here with the DBT as you see fit. Not like this thread has seen much action of late, so it's not exactly drowning out all the other in-depth discussions. Just to be clear, it's still something I'm not going to add to the mod, but feel free to talk about modding the mod as you wish.

Thanks! I think I'll keep it in the other thread I started, though, so there's no confusion.

Thanks for the suggestions!

No problem.

 

[Hagie Sophia]

Just tried a GC as USA until Civil War then switched to CSA, with this mod. Way, way easy. I just disbanded all Yankee divisions, raised all Dixie ones (or Yankee based in Southern states) and at outbreak of war, rushed to DC and Philly. War was over in a few months, and CSA was independent with no worries about USA DoW every 5 years.

Interesting mod.

 

[CSABadass]

Just tried a GC as USA until Civil War then switched to CSA, with this mod. Way, way easy. I just disbanded all Yankee divisions, raised all Dixie ones (or Yankee based in Southern states) and at outbreak of war, rushed to DC and Philly. War was over in a few months, and CSA was independent with no worries about USA DoW every 5 years.

Interesting mod.

Never tried that before--very creative!

Be careful, though: if the CS-US deteriorates enough (-190 or worse seems to do it), the US *will* DOW.

Thanks for trying (and complimenting) the mod!

 

[Hagie Sophia]

Coming to the end of my GC as CSA and have to say that it's been fun. Some of the high(low)lights:

1. CSA went hardcore socialist for a good 50 years after the CW. I'm talking over 70% in elections, sometimes a lot more. This allowed me to get huge numbers of immigrants and build the factories that I really wanted. Democrats eventually came into power and now my capitalists have huge resources available to build railroads, etc. Not sure if this would have been historical, since the war was pretty much fought over states rights...so I don't know that the states would have allowed the central government to have so much control over the growth of the economy.

2. Somehow I got Machine Guns much earlier than everyone else, so I had a big jump on the colonizing game. Was hard to get steamers, or I would have had all of Africa colonized before the first Brit or French colony ever got established. As it is, after some colonizing and colonial wars with France, I own pretty much all of sub-Saharan Africa west of Egypt.

3. Due to the massive immigration, I was able to build an industrial powerhouse, which in turn can support a huge military. Although I can't realisitically build enough ships to wrest the seas from the UK, the boost to my military score, in addition to the great immigration, propelled me to #1 Great Power for a short time. At some point in the 20's, however, Germany nearly doubled their industry score, permanently kicking me out of the #1 spot. Still, it's kind of fun to be the top producer in every military related category, as well as oil, fuel, etc. Probably my best industrial score ever achieved in a GC. Texas by itself would probably dwarf most other nations in the game at this point, in pretty much any category.

4. Overall, a very fun game, although the mod could probably use a tweak here or there.

 

[CSABadass]

4. Overall, a very fun game, although the mod could probably use a tweak here or there.

Glad you had fun with SR!

I'm always tweaking SR, so if you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks for trying SR!

 

[Hagie Sophia]

One thing I noticed was that the manpower boost didn't seem to work in the event that fires when each state joins the CSA. It kept saying manpower +5 or whatever, but the manpower levels just kept going more negative. All the divisions were nice to have, but without the manpower to reinforce them, they became more of a liability than anything else. After the war, I pretty much disbanded all the basic infantry divisions.

 

[CSABadass]

One thing I noticed was that the manpower boost didn't seem to work in the event that fires when each state joins the CSA. It kept saying manpower +5 or whatever, but the manpower levels just kept going more negative. All the divisions were nice to have, but without the manpower to reinforce them, they became more of a liability than anything else. After the war, I pretty much disbanded all the basic infantry divisions.

Just went back over the events and they're all scripted properly, and a quick test has them working just fine for me.

Where were your defense spending and army maintainence sliders set? If either of those is too low, manpower will be negative regardless of events.

If it's not the sliders, I'm sorry to say I don't know what could be causing it. I didn't mod the events in question, so whatever the cause is it doesn't seem to be my mod.

 

[CSARebel]

I can't say that I have noticed this problem myself. I have noticed that if useing the cheat codes (event numbers) they do not seem to fire right, but this has nothing to do with CSABadass's mod.

 

[unmerged(56887)]

If as the CSA I'm allied with the UK and a white peace is negotiated between the US and them does that affect the post-war events?

 

[CSABadass]

If as the CSA I'm allied with the UK and a white peace is negotiated between the US and them does that affect the post-war events?

It shouldn't, no.

 

[CSABadass]

V1.15

OHGamer has released 2 hotfixes for V:R this week, and while their effect on SR is minimal, I have uploaded a small V1.15 update which incoporates the handful of overlapping changes. I even threw in a leader picture for Braxton Bragg, just for good measure.

To use both SR 1.15 and the hotfixes, first deactivate SR in JSGME, install the hotfixes, then reactivate SR 1.15.

SR V1.15 is available at the new filefront.com link in my .sig below. Savefile.com is down at the moment and will not let me upload V1.15 there, but I will do so as soon as its server allows.

Thanks as always for your continued support of my modding efforts!

 

[CSABadass]

V1.15 of Southern Revolutions is now available for download at both Filefront.com and Savefile.com. This version is compatible with all 3 of OHGamer's Ricky Hotfixes, or fully playable without them if you are so inclined.

Sure, absolutely no one has downloaded V1.15 yet, but if anyone needs this help, it's there for ya.