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Heliocon

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Hi everyone, so im playing the demo here and wondering why the southern Italian provinces are dirt poor with only 1 base tax each? Thats Lucania, Salerno and Calabria. Nearby provinces have tax rates of 8+ like sicily, but southern italy 3/5 of the provinces are only a base of 1 while one is 6 and the other 8... Doesn't this kind of hobble Naples a bit? Opinions?
 

Cynical Dreamer

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Hello,

Well, after the Renaissance in northern Italy, the South WAS piss poor, and sparsly populated so I guess it's only accurate that they get a small taxbase.
 

unmerged(295334)

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Well, the area was very poor, due to repeated wars, and raiding by muslims. The Barbarossa brothers made Southern Italy their playground. I do think if you could shut down those raids, then Southern Italy should have higher tax, but EU4 can't really simulate that, so they are just Albania-level provinces.
 

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As long as Naples has high taxbase I'm happy.
From Naples wikipedia:
"By the 17th century, Naples had become Europe's 2nd-largest city – second only to London – and the largest European Mediterranean city, with around 250,000 inhabitants."
 

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As long as Naples has high taxbase I'm happy.
From Naples wikipedia:
"By the 17th century, Naples had become Europe's 2nd-largest city – second only to London – and the largest European Mediterranean city, with around 250,000 inhabitants."

Of course, the wiki doesn't cite that before the plague of 1630 Naples was the LARGEST city in Europe with 350,000 inhabitants.
 

Checco

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Hello,

Well, after the Renaissance in northern Italy, the South WAS piss poor, and sparsly populated so I guess it's only accurate that they get a small taxbase.

Just like the guy above wrote, it has always been a very poor area, even nowadays, so it's all but historically inaccurate.

While new provinces are created, just like everywhere else, the new provices' combined tax bases are more or less the sum of those there were before.
 

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At the time most of the area Naples control, was swampy and generally very poor (And unpopulated). All of these are reflected in the poor base tax the area receives. You're going to have to cope or find other means of revenue (Like trade or conquest - It's a big area once you rid yourself of your shackles)
 

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just so u know, the kingdom of the 2 sicilies was the richest italian country before the unification... they had around 443 milions of lire-gold where all the other italians countries had 224 millions... south italy alone, by 1860 held 65% of the entire peninsula economy... not to talk bout the fact that had the best army, the most advanced navy (they had 2 steam powered vessels if i remember correctly, wich where the only 2 steam powered vessels in italy) and they where the 3rd most tecnologically advanced coutry in europe if i remember correctly...

to say that south italy was poor when north was rich is a like saying that berlusconi is a chaste old man.

however its true that this game doesnt take place in 1860.

but the south become poor AFTER the colonization (every serious history book wouldnt call it a conquest or a unification) from piedmont.
 

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Just stop, Belegurt. The PROVINCES are poor, not the nation (Except you know it is a lesser union member - hurts their ability to do anything)
 

turnad

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just so u know, the kingdom of the 2 sicilies was the richest italian country before the unification... they had around 443 milions of lire-gold where all the other italians countries had 224 millions... south italy alone, by 1860 held 65% of the entire peninsula economy... not to talk bout the fact that had the best army, the most advanced navy (they had 2 steam powered vessels if i remember correctly, wich where the only 2 steam powered vessels in italy) and they where the 3rd most tecnologically advanced coutry in europe if i remember correctly...

to say that south italy was poor when north was rich is a like saying that berlusconi is a chaste old man.

however its true that this game doesnt take place in 1860.

but the south become poor AFTER the colonization (every serious history book wouldnt call it a conquest or a unification) from piedmont.

How much was actually from rich land though? The game is quite capable of making Naples rich, just not from some of it's provinces.
 

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Just stop, Belegurt. The PROVINCES are poor, not the nation (Except you know it is a lesser union member - hurts their ability to do anything)

well, as i said the game doesnt take place in that era, in 1450 the land wasnt very rich... it produced a lot of food but that was all. and it's commercial relevancy was sinking faster than the titaninc

i'm not arguing with that... i'm arguing with those who said that south italy was poor at the end of the time spawn of the game... wich was incorrect at best

i'm actually quite ok with it's state at the start of the game.. well, maybe it shouldnt be poor like albania.... but still its ok and plausible
 

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Southern Italy wasn't "poor" anymore then mainland Greece or other parts of Italy. Sure it lacked the trade hubs of Northern Italy which made it poor in comparison (lack of trade, not lack of fertile soil/land/agriculture). Its modern relative poverty is a result of the industrial revolution which didn't take off in Southern Italy as rapidly as northern italy. A base tax of 1 is just overdoing it, how can you possibly say it was poorer than parts of scandinavia where you cant grow crops for good parts of the year? Southern italy was a huge producer of wine, olives and other valuable commodities and always has been. It was no poorer than Sicily.
 

Checco

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just so u know, the kingdom of the 2 sicilies was the richest italian country before the unification... they had around 443 milions of lire-gold where all the other italians countries had 224 millions... south italy alone, by 1860 held 65% of the entire peninsula economy... not to talk bout the fact that had the best army, the most advanced navy (they had 2 steam powered vessels if i remember correctly, wich where the only 2 steam powered vessels in italy) and they where the 3rd most tecnologically advanced coutry in europe if i remember correctly...

to say that south italy was poor when north was rich is a like saying that berlusconi is a chaste old man.

however its true that this game doesnt take place in 1860.

but the south become poor AFTER the colonization (every serious history book wouldnt call it a conquest or a unification) from piedmont.

Do not pay attention to this guy, we have plenty like him in Italy. Southern Italian origins, telling around the tale "South was rich, North pillaged it that's why we became poor, before that were the best, in Italy and most Europe as well" to appease his frustration for being looked down upon by people of Northen Italian origins.

Unfortunately he cannot provide sources to prove his 'fairytale', just like the rest of those who want to rewrite history in their own convenient way.

Just ignore his ramblings, you don't know how many times I had to listen to this bull at home :D.
 

WeissRaben

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Do not pay attention to this guy, we have plenty like him in Italy. Southern Italian origins, telling around the tale "South was rich, North pillaged it that's why we became poor, before that were the best, in Italy and most Europe as well" to appease his frustration for being looked down upon by people of Northen Italian origins.

Unfortunately he cannot provide sources to prove his 'fairytale', just like the rest of those who want to rewrite history in their own convenient way.

Just ignore his ramblings, you don't know how many times I had to listen to this bull at home :D.

Oh, Naples WAS the richest nation in Italy. Partly because of its high population, partly because of the trade goods, partly because of the absolute beast that was the city of Naples (Napoli-Portici, the second railway in Europe). The point is that, as soon as you left the modern capital, you ended back in the 14th c.. While on paper the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was impressive, close up it was a retrograde nation. Think a miniature Russia.

This said, 1 base tax is bollocks. It should be 3, with a peak in Naples. Still much poorer than other 6-provinces nations, but not Iceland-level.
 

Saranis

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well, as i said the game doesnt take place in that era, in 1450 the land wasnt very rich... it produced a lot of food but that was all. and it's commercial relevancy was sinking faster than the titaninc

In terms of ships sinking the Titanic actually took a long time because it broke in half and the stern of the ship remained afloat a while longer while the bow sank. Had the ship remained in one piece the whole ship would have been pulled down at once.

If you're talking about the Titanics commercial relevancy it likewise doesn't hold up. The Titanic remained relevant for a long time within the shipping industry as legislation was passed that required ships to have enough lifeboats aboard for each passenger. This meant that existing ships had to be modified to accommodate either more lifeboats or fewer passengers. Often the result was both as cabin room was sacrificed for the space required to store the boats. Fewer Passengers meant less money.
 
Last edited:

Galaahd

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Do not pay attention to this guy, we have plenty like him in Italy. Southern Italian origins, telling around the tale "South was rich, North pillaged it that's why we became poor, before that were the best, in Italy and most Europe as well" to appease his frustration for being looked down upon by people of Northen Italian origins.

Unfortunately he cannot provide sources to prove his 'fairytale', just like the rest of those who want to rewrite history in their own convenient way.

Just ignore his ramblings, you don't know how many times I had to listen to this bull at home :D.

+1

It's amazing, always the same old points. I can't even be arsed to discuss that stuff anymore.

"Hurrr durrrr first railroad! Hurrr durrr biggest treasure! NAPLES STRONK!"
 

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The important thing is the method, when we are talking about history, there is no space for campanilism or things pro-south or pro-north :D however to give an answer to the open post, we can't say "the south was poor becouse was poor" to answer, is a tautology. however the south loss during centuries is prominency, like other parts of the world during human history, the correct way to answer is a neutral historical analysis. ;)

Modern Age, Discovery of the atlantic routes, expansion of the Ottomans, in a context where Italy lost its centrality, becoming a noble periphery of Europe, the south suffer this condition more acutely, also due to historical situations dating back to the Norman conquest. The clientelism within a rigid feudal society, caused a weak development of the bourgeoisie. to worsen the situation, the Spanish domination , not only made ​​the south only a periphery of an huge empire, but caused also a further legitimization of feudal relations and economic arrears. (In fact, problems due to feudal arrears and bad economic doctrines, appeared also in Spain). The aftermath of this continued de facto also in the contemporary age, and of course also had its effect on the history of our country post-unification.

So in game terms:

Naples deserve prestige, as center of prestige and royal power, vivid enough to be a center of the renaissance, connected enough to not be totally foreign to the Enlightenment (also spain invested on this directly, and indirectly also with the kingdom of sicily post 1734)

the rest of southern Italy while being economically inserted into a wide-ranging agricultural circuit, was penalized by the fossilized remain of this "feudal" view of the economy, with all the consequences about the society (consequences appeared, with the obvious differences, in all the areas that suffered a static feudal economy), that ignored his large potential about the industrial plants, to continue with an ill-planned economy.


The consequences of this evolution, reflected on every other sector, a spontaneus middle class remained an exception and the intellectual bearer of foreign or original ideas was without audience.

Every economic activity, concerning fishing, agriculture, mining, etc.. or was under foreign influences little interested in the development of the area, or was influenced by centuries of political, economical and social stagnation.

so, like other part of world, the historical context and the contingent policies, can justify a not central economic position of southern italy during the EUIV timeframe. ;)