Southern Balkans Map Change Suggestions

[Mad King James]

I would like to propose that the Southern Balkans be divided up a little bit more than it currently is. This particular area seems to be weirdly impoverished in terms of provinces and they are also really poor.

1: Karleli (city: Vrachori)
2: Zagore
3: Plovdiv
4: Pirin (city: Blagoevgrad)
5: Strymon (city: Serres)
6: Edirne/Adrianopolis
7: Thrace (city: Arcadiopolis)
8: Varna
9: Dobruja (city: Karvuna)
10: Tarnovo
11: Pleven
12: Sofia
13: Silistra
14: Rhodope (city: Trajanopolis)
15: Toskeria (city: Vlore)
16: Arbanon (city: Durres)
17: Epirus (city: Ioannina)
18: Ohrid
19: Macedonia (city: Thessalonica)
20: Scopje
21: Aydin
22: Mugla
23: Biga
24: Karasi
25: Soghut
26: Bursa
27: Manisa
28: Smyrna
29: Ushak

 

[Mad King James]

Karleli is ruled by Leonardo III Tocco who was also lord of Cephalonia and Zante (ingame for some reason you made him Duke of Corfu and vassal of Venice), and one of the first places the Ottomans conquered during the game era. Corfu was a Venetian possession, so adding this province you can fix this bizarre kludge you guys have now to represent the Toccos.

Bulgaria, for such an important and powerful and relevant kingdom in Balkan history, is still extremely underrepresented (though the last few map changes have helped fix this problem) and poor as hell, and for some unknown reason Macedonian provinces remain Serbian or Greek (if they're not Macedonian culture, Bulgarian is the only logical choice).

Albanian really needs at least one more province, Vlore makes sense to represent Tosk Albania, also the Arbanon principality only included Gheg Albania. Ohrid and Skopje finally both exist, Thrace is back, and Strymon and Rhodope rugged frontiers added in between the flat plains of Adrianople and Thessalonica (contrary to what every map ever would have you believe, it is not easy and quick to travel between the two, actually several mountain ranges and river fords...)

The core area of the Byzantines and Ottomans going back forever, western Anatolia, finally accurately represented with the Sanjaks of the Ottoman era. Aydin and Mugla, Soghut and Bursa, Biga and Karasi all make sense as provinces and all served as indepdendent Beyliks in the century prior to the game.

This would also give the Ottomans a buff, so gamey stuff isn't so necessary for them to be strong and some of their insane bonuses can be toned down a bit.

 

[123e55]

About Silistre..
I still can't understand why they united Dobruja with Silistre.. It makes no sense!

 

[celethiel]

congratulations, you have made the Ottoman Empire the most powerful country in the world by far, if that province break-up is implemented, even without buffing that puts them a bit ahead of France.... btw don't the modern Macedonians of the Country of Macedonia consider themselves Macedonian... as In descended from that ancient bloodline... which i can safely say the majority of Greece can't claim anyway.

 

[Mad King James]

Eh, not necessarily. The Ottomans already have like the best ideas in the game:

Ghazi (+20% manpower)
Better techgroup (that can stay I guess)
Discipline boost tradition
Millets (33% cheaper cores! AND more accepted cultures)
Timariot (+15% cavalry combat!)
Ambition is +33% total land forces!
Free +3 heretic tolerance!

And that's just the Ottomans. Their opponents have all been nerfed to hell. Hungary is a joke, because anything stronger and they might win against the Ottomans sometimes when the Ottos are fighting a lot of opponents. The Balkans has been basically reduced to like 1 tax base to allow the Ottomans to steamroll them. Even Constantinople's level 2 fort was removed in case that made things too hard for the Ottomans <_<

Giving the Ottomans lots more provinces and lots more tax base means we can strengthen Hungary a bit, take away some of the insanity of how powerful their ideas are, and increase the tax base of places like Egypt or Albania.

 

[Alexona]

btw don't the modern Macedonians of the Country of Macedonia consider themselves Macedonian... as In descended from that ancient bloodline... which i can safely say the majority of Greece can't claim anyway.

They're Slavic just as much as Bulgarians and Serbians, so how could they possibly claim to have anything to do with ancient Macedonians? Not to mention that most of the essential parts of the actual region of Ancient Macedonia still lies in modern Greece.

 

[celethiel]

Eh, not necessarily. The Ottomans already have like the best ideas in the game:

Ghazi (+20% manpower)
Better techgroup (that can stay I guess)
Discipline boost tradition
Millets (33% cheaper cores! AND more accepted cultures)
Timariot (+15% cavalry combat!)
Ambition is +33% total land forces!
Free +3 heretic tolerance!

And that's just the Ottomans. Their opponents have all been nerfed to hell. Hungary is a joke, because anything stronger and they might win against the Ottomans sometimes when the Ottos are fighting a lot of opponents. The Balkans has been basically reduced to like 1 tax base to allow the Ottomans to steamroll them. Even Constantinople's level 2 fort was removed in case that made things too hard for the Ottomans <_<

Hungary historically is a joke (mostly due to revolts inside the country but yeah), as are the Balkans at the time period, I mean the Bulgarians might have been stronger, but they don't exist... and Byzantium is dieing. Ottomans for a VERY long time had a very good military, and were almost as good tech wise (which they are in game) as the eastern Technologies, they just seem to roll consistantly better kings... that Heretic Tolerance has to do with the fact their none-Muslim lands stayed their own until the 1800's.
I'd agree though that they should have some things removed... however they didn't nessarilly accept cultures, for instance they killed off cultures throughout their history.

 

[celethiel]

They're Slavic just as much as Bulgarians and Serbians, so how could they possibly claim to have anything to do with ancient Macedonians? Not to mention that most of the essential parts of the actual region of Ancient Macedonia still lies in modern Greece.

so says the Greek government, still Macedonia the country was part of Macedonia, the ancient Country.

 

[Alexona]

Don't try to make it seem as it was all just the Greek propaganda. The fact is that people in FYROM speak a Slavic language extremely similar to Bulgarian, they were a part of Yugoslavia earlier and the region they live in belonged originally to Thrace, not Macedonia.

 

[celethiel]

Don't try to make it seem as it was all just the Greek propaganda. The fact is that people in FYROM speak a Slavic language extremely similar to Bulgarian, they were a part of Yugoslavia earlier and the region they live in belonged originally to Thrace, not Macedonia.

Thrace was controlled by Macedonia, as for whether they speak on language or another... remember Culture (not just as a game concept) is more than just language...(truth be told most Eastern European Cultures trace theirs back to the Greeks anyway... be proud Greece, the entirety of Eastern Europe owes you much...) and Descent is more than language as well....Conquest also doesn't nessarrilly mean everyone in the region was punted out and replaced, else there would be no Greece now, the Greeks would have long ago started speaking Bulgarian, before being forced to become Ottoman.... or be punted somewhere else...like Antioch.... I am actually not Advicating that they make the province/s shown above that modern Macedonia hold Greek, or Macedonian Culture

 

[Alexona]

It's true that culture is more than just language, but language is a pretty big deal when it comes to culture anyway. The fact that Thrace was later conquered by Macedonians is irrelevant as that still doesn't make the area around Skopje the core of Ancient Macedonia as the name could misleadingly suggest it to people who wouldn't know better.

Jews somehow managed to keep their own culture, language and identity despite being conquered many times, dispersed around the world and severely persecuted almost wherever they went to. Despite all that they have never been confused about their separate identity, unlike these so-called "Macedonians", whose early nationalistic leaders themselves weren't sure who they exactly were:

The origins of the definition of an ethnic Slav Macedonian identity arose from the writings of Georgi Pulevski in the 1870s and 1880s, who identified the existence of a distinct modern "Slavic Macedonian" language that he defined that was different from other languages in that it had linguistic elements of Serbian, Bulgarian, Church Slavonic, and Albanian languages.[4] Pulevski analyzed the folk histories of the Slavic Macedonian people, in which he concluded that Slavic Macedonians were ethnically linked to the people of the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia of Philip and Alexander the Great based on the claim that the ancient Macedonians' language had Slavic components in it and thus that the ancient Macedonians were Slavic, and that modern-day Slavic Macedonians were descendants of them.[2] However Slavic Macedonians' self-identification and nationalist loyalties remained ambiguous in the late 19th century. Pulevski for instance viewed Macedonians' identity as being a regional phenomenon (similar to Herzegovinians and Thracians). Once calling himself a "Serbian patriot", another time a "Bulgarian from the village of Galicnik",[5] he also identified the Slavic Macedonian language as being related to the "Old Bulgarian language" as well as being a "Serbo-Albanian language".[2] Pulevski's numerous identifications actually reveals the absence of a clear ethnic sense in a part of the local Slavic population.

PS. I realize that this is heavily off-topic but I just felt that bringing up the subject of modern Macedonians' claims regarding their ancestry was unnecessary here

 

[celethiel]

It's true that culture is more than just language, but language is a pretty big deal when it comes to culture anyway. The fact that Thrace was later conquered by Macedonians is irrelevant as that still doesn't make the area around Skopje the core of Ancient Macedonia as the name could misleadingly suggest it to people who wouldn't know better.

Jews somehow managed to keep their own culture, language and identity despite being conquered many times, dispersed around the world and severely persecuted almost wherever they went to. Despite all that they have never been confused about their separate identity, unlike these so-called "Macedonians", whose early nationalistic leaders themselves weren't sure who they exactly were:



PS. I realize that this is heavily off-topic but I just felt that bringing up the subject of modern Macedonians' claims regarding their ancestry was unnecessary here

and yet Modern Egyptians amist the ruins of Ancient Egypt have lost theirs (original Culture and Language, and yet modern Italians Amongst the ruins of the ancient Romans have lost theirs, the culture, and much of their language... and yet the Slavic Romanians have picked up the Romantic Language, and Greek Style.... this is actually heavily off topic... lol....
It's an interesting conversation, thank you for debating it with me
Back to the main topic of the forum, I do agree Bulgaria split at least one province.

 

[AndrejK]

I agree splitting up Albania Epirus and Dobruja. I guess the rest can stay as it is there is no need for new provinces

 

[talilu]

My possible splits for this region, trying not to go overboard;
Gelibolu and Edirne could use a split.

Albania could have a three ways split as made in several mods, Lezhe (Albania), Durres (Venice) and Gjirokaster (Ottomans).

Epirus is SO huge, also we need Epirus independent on the southern side of the province so a cut would make for more historical accuracy.

About Western Anatolia, Hudavendigar is really weirdly placed, could be cut as Bursa and Iznik.

Also agree on Silistria-Dobruja should be seperate with their different cultures Romanian and Bulgarian.

So, this would make 3 extra provinces from the start. 2 more after they conquer Lezhe from Albania and Southern Epirus from Epirus resulting in 5. (I don't think they can really take Durres from Venice every game) I guess not a huge buff considering the possible alliances of Epirus and Albania and start-off extra 3 provinces wouldn't make Ottomans ahistorically powerful anyways.

 

[Mad King James]

You're right that I probably should have also split Gelibolu <_<

 

[Itchel]

I'd love to see the southern balkans get an improvement but dont you think this is a bit too much?? This region isn't rich like italy

 

[AndrejK]

My possible splits for this region, trying not to go overboard;
Gelibolu and Edirne could use a split.

Albania could have a three ways split as made in several mods, Lezhe (Albania), Durres (Venice) and Gjirokaster (Ottomans).

Epirus is SO huge, also we need Epirus independent on the southern side of the province so a cut would make for more historical accuracy.

About Western Anatolia, Hudavendigar is really weirdly placed, could be cut as Bursa and Iznik.

Also agree on Silistria-Dobruja should be seperate with their different cultures Romanian and Bulgarian.

So, this would make 3 extra provinces from the start. 2 more after they conquer Lezhe from Albania and Southern Epirus from Epirus resulting in 5. (I don't think they can really take Durres from Venice every game) I guess not a huge buff considering the possible alliances of Epirus and Albania and start-off extra 3 provinces wouldn't make Ottomans ahistorically powerful anyways.

Yep this sounds reasonable however not sure whether Gelibolu /Gallipolli/Hellespont really needs to be detached from Adrianople/Edirne. The rest I agree with