South tyrol austria and the anschluss

[Bugnr01]

A discussion about a minor thing of the game.

Will auatria have a core in south tyrol?
If yes should it be removed or should the germans get the core in south tyrol after the anschluss?
Should the italian core of south tyrol be removed at the start of the game and be an annexed part of italy?

Short info. Tyrol was divided after ww1. Hitler and mussolini agreed with that because hitler wanted ausrtia and mussolini wanted to keep the southern part of tyrol. Italy was not able to fully control the are in the 1960 even after allready 75000 german speaking people lefte the country during ww2. Nowadays there is a euoropregion tirol südtirol und trentino.

There is a thread on this forum if some have no idea what im talking about
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-short-history-of-south-tyrol.913821/

 

[neusaap]

Will auatria have a core in south tyrol?

It should have.

If yes should it be removed or should the germans get the core in south tyrol after the anschluss?

Yes

Should the italian core of south tyrol be removed at the start of the game and be an annexed part of italy?

No, the Italians had claimed South Tyrol before WWI and they finally got it, I believe the people in South Tyrol also recognized that it was Italian (not all of them ofc, but most).

 

[Bugnr01]

Does the yes mean remove it or give the core to germany?

And for the last one. Not that much.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_Fire

 

[vortexsurfer]

It should have.

Yes

No, the Italians had claimed South Tyrol before WWI and they finally got it, I believe the people in South Tyrol also recognized that it was Italian (not all of them ofc, but most).

This is wrong, the haven't claimed it before WW1.

The Triple Entente wanted to gain the alliance of Italy against its long time allies Germany and Austria. To achieve this, they promised them huge territorial gains, including Tyrol up to the Brenner (Treaty of London, 1915).

After the war, the pact was nullified in large parts, but the partition of Tyrol was confirmed in the Treaty of St. Germain.

 

[Klausewitz]

No, the Italians had claimed South Tyrol before WWI and they finally got it, I believe the people in South Tyrol also recognized that it was Italian (not all of them ofc, but most).

Even today 'most' South Tyrolians (?) being okay with it being part of Italy would be a shaky statement.

To quote wikipedia:
The South Tyrolean question (Südtirolfrage) became an international issue (after the war). As the implementation of the post-war agreement was not seen as satisfactory by the Austrian government, it became a cause of significant friction with Italy and was taken up by the United Nations in 1960. A fresh round of negotiations took place in 1961 but proved unsuccessful, partly because of the campaign of terrorism.

The issue was resolved in 1971, when a new Austro-Italian treaty was signed and ratified. It stipulated that disputes in South Tyrol would be submitted for settlement to the International Court of Justice in The Hague, that the province would receive greater autonomy within Italy, and that Austria would not interfere in South Tyrol's internal affairs. The new agreement proved broadly satisfactory to the parties involved, and the separatist tensions soon eased.

The new autonomous status, granted from 1972 onwards, has resulted in a considerable level of self-government, also due to the large financial resources of South Tyrol, retaining almost 90% of all levied taxes.


Also Austria and italy only really settled the whole question in 1992.

And when i visited in 2004 and 2010 the South Tyrolians (by which i mean people whose ancestors have lived in South Tyrol since before 1918 and speaking mostly but not exclusivly German) they still were not really on board with being Italians but were not riled up enough to actually do anything about... mostly because with the EU it does not really matter.

 

[Anichent]

The Germans should NOT get a core on south Tyrol.

You people need to learn your history.
In 1935 Italy and Germany almost went to war over Germany wanted to annex Austria. So Germany backed off.

The ONLY reason Italy allowed Germany to do it when it eventually happened, and the ONLY reason German entered into an alliance with Germany was because Germany abandoned all claims to South Tyrol and promised Mussolini that he would not enforce any claims on it.

Germany does just get claims on all german territories, its much more complex. Like how Germany was ready to give Italy the Waldensian parts of Switzerland, even though the Waldensians were Germans.

Austria does not get a core on South Tyrol, their claims to it were abandoned in favour of support from Italy. Germany did the same. The only way to change that is to alter history pre-1936 and cause the game to start forcing wars between Italy and Germany at the anschluss.

Now take all that and realize together, it means if Germany wants a claim on South Tyrol (historically LADIN territory, which is why it is considered Italy even though it is majority German speakers) they would have to fabricate a whole new claim. Now if you want to mod in an event that says once Germany owns it, they should get a core thats one thing. But by no means should they "have" a core at the start.

 

[leeuw]

Even today 'most' South Tyrolians (?) being okay with it being part of Italy would be a shaky statement.

On the contrary, I think it can be defined a steady statement. I don't know on which basis it could be defined "shaky". What I know is that in the Bolzano provincial government (Bolzano province corresponds more or less to the current South Tyrol) the separatist parties has less then 1/3 of the seats.
And South Tyrol is not the only Italian region to have a great political autonomy. There also the Aosta Valley, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Sardinia and Sicily.

 

[Klausewitz]

On the contrary, I think it can be defined a steady statement. I don't know on which basis it could be defined "shaky". What I know is that in the Bolzano provincial government (Bolzano province corresponds more or less to the current South Tyrol) the separatist parties has less then 1/3 of the seats.
And South Tyrol is not the only Italian region to have a great political autonomy. There also the Aosta Valley, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Sardinia and Sicily.

If votes for the separists are your only marker, then yes Bolzano is solidly 'italian-minded'.
But i would still maintain that only because they are not in open rebellion or process of secession (and i am sure we are both aware that even if 75% or 100% of the South Tyrolans were in favour that would not happen since neither Austria nor Italy would stand for it) does not mean that they are happy or even okay with being part of italy.
They just do not care enough, at the moment to do anything about it.
I would on the contrary claim that if 45% of a population are willing to vote for a part that is pretty much single-issue as protecting the interests of south tyrolians as seperate from being italians... well, that does not look good.

 

[leeuw]

If votes for the separists are your only marker, then yes Bolzano is solidly 'italian-minded'.
I would on the contrary claim that if 45% of a population are willing to vote for a part that is pretty much single-issue as protecting the interests of south tyrolians as seperate from being italians... well, that does not look good.

Actually, 45% could be a good extimate of the Italians who want to be Italians
Soon after the unification, one of our statesman said something like "Now that Italy has been formed, we have to form the Italians". I think that we were almost all Italians only in this four days: June 10th, 1934; June 19th, 1938; July 11th, 1982; and July 9th, 2006

Anyway, we are far off-topic.
To be in topic. IMHO, the Germany should not have any core in South Tyrol at least until the Italian Social Republic is formed as a German puppet and the South Tyrol has been de facto annexed to the Reich.
About Austria, it depends on how you consider it. I mean, if you consider the post-WW1 Austria as the direct successor of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, thus it should have core in South Tyrol (and, Friuli, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary and Czechoslovakia). Otherwise, maybe it is correct to do not give Austria any core outside its territory.

 

[wotertool]

Anyway, we are far off-topic.
To be in topic. IMHO, the Germany should not have any core in South Tyrol at least until the Italian Social Republic is formed as a German puppet and the South Tyrol has been de facto annexed to the Reich.
About Austria, it depends on how you consider it. I mean, if you consider the post-WW1 Austria as the direct successor of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, thus it should have core in South Tyrol (and, Friuli, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary and Czechoslovakia). Otherwise, maybe it is correct to do not give Austria any core outside its territory.

The Austrian Government post-WW1 threw everything away that had anything to do with the Habsburger. They installed a new, democratic government (German-Austria), claiming nothing but german speaking provinces including Austria, Sudetenland and the whole Tyrolian Province without the italian Trentino. The Burgenland (German West Hungary) was not claimed but given to Austria with the peace treaty for Hungary. Tyrol past the Brenner as well as the Sudethenland was not given to Austria.

In the Treaty of St. Germain, the Allies said no to German-Austria, forcing them to rename it to Austria and add an Anschlussverbot.

There were no parties in Austria that claimed the lands of the Habsburger Empire.

 

[Matray79]

If Germany has cores on Danzig and the Polish corridor, then a province that has been part of Austria and the HRE for a long time should also give greater Germany a core. As these provinces were only lost in the last war with still many ethnic Germans living there I do not see why it should be different.

 

[scroggin]

If you consider what a core does then Austria or a Greater Germany should have cores in south tyrol. Cores allow a full integration into your country you get full manpower full IC output and full resources. The Germanic population of south tyrol would have given these things to Austria or Germany.
Im not sure if it is possible to have a core but not a claim on another country in HOI4. But that would have been the reality due to Hitlers friendship with Musolini.

 

[leeuw]

If you consider what a core does then Austria or a Greater Germany should have cores in south tyrol. Cores allow a full integration into your country you get full manpower full IC output and full resources. The Germanic population of south tyrol would have given these things to Austria or Germany.
Im not sure if it is possible to have a core but not a claim on another country in HOI4. But that would have been the reality due to Hitlers friendship with Musolini.

If the Country A has a core in a part of the Country B, then Country A has a claim on Country B. Thus, from the historical point of view, neither Germany nor Austria should have cores in South Tyrol, since both recognized the Locarno Treaties and all the treaties thereafter about the post WW1 borders with Italy (Germany rejected the Locarno Treaties about the border with France, Czechslovakia and Poland).
IMHO, what could be done is:
- a specific focus tree for Austria where there are the options to claim back the Austro-German land in Italy, Yugoslavia, Czechslovakia and Hungary;
- an option in the Germany focus tree or an event which gaves it cores on South Tyrol once the RSI is formed as a puppet.