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Mingmung

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@Zolf made a thread in the general forums about South-East Asia. The developers also chimed in and asked if we, as community, could make some kind of general thread about this subject. So, here we have it: A compilation thread of some SEA suggestions made by the people here on the suggestion-forums.

Muslim presence in northern Sumatra, by @withche.07:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...in-pasai-aceh-ottomans.1020979/#post-24711632

Map-update for Indonesia, by @MarkS00N:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/indonesia-suggestion.1026426/

Map-update for Indochina, by @Tudhaliya:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ons-for-southeast-asia.1112021/#post-24510335

Some information about Indonesia, by @neondt (surprise, surprise):
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...a-1444-without-new-tags.864230/#post-19497503

More rightful Verenigd Oostindische Compagnie clay.

Anyway, please feel free to discuss the subject here and/or link more threads about this subject so I can put them in the OP.
 
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Canute VII

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I'd love to see a China rework, too, in a hypothetical SEA DLC. Dharma and CoC set a new bar for the amount of detail. And Fryz, one of the betas, has done a formidable job in AoW and Mandate of Heaven regarding China.
As in this thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...be-buffed-with-2k-dev-to-keep-parity.1115012/ if there ever will be a SEA DLC then China could be slightly rebalanced as well:
- adding more areas for the existing number of provinces
- adding some more provinces
- (besides historical accuracy) both above with the aim that Ming goes over the territory-state boundary and incurs corruption
- adding more islands both at the China coast and in SEA-region overal, to allow for the formation of pirates
 

Zolf

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Maybe a "historical friends" modifier?
Like Shoo said above, the Sunda hated Majapahit because of the Bubat event. They were humiliated, the supposed soon-to-be Majapahit queen was treated like a mere tribute presented for Sunda's submission to Majapahit, and their royal family died defending their honor, including king Lingga Buana and princess Pitaloka Citraresmi. Until today, in 2018, you won't find a single road named after Gajah Mada or Hayam Wuruk (Rajasanagara) within West Java.

However, I question how come it didn't turn into an open war if their hatred really run very deep.

And from the game perspective, I can see how your suggestion may work, as long as the Dev could make it so it won't develop into a military alliance...

Looking at Majapahit, Mataram should start with cores in western and central Majapahit to represent the Medang Mataram Kingdom. Additionally, Mataram should be the primary tag of Javanese culture to represent the Mataram Sultanate, as it was the last major Javanese kingdom before Dutch colonization. Along with events for the Demak Sultanate and other tags, there could be more historical outcomes for Java.
The Medang Mataram Kingdom lasted from 732 to 1006, similar to the Kingdom of Asturias that is coming with the next patch. The second kingdom lasted from 1587 to 1755 during EU4's timeline, while Hobyo, Aussa and Kaabu have cores in 1444 although they emerged in the 1500's. So there shouldn't be a problem. Making Mataram the primary tag for Javanese and having events for emergent tags to more accurately display historical outcomes in Java as well as the rest of Southeast Asia would be beneficial.
Nah, the old Mataram (Mataram kuno / Hindu Mataram) didn't have any relation with the later Mataram (Islamic Mataram.) The name more referring to the area where they were based on (the capital). Mataram was the area around the modern day Yogyakarta.
And actually, Mataram usually is used to refer to the period when the capital still in Central Java while Medang is used to refer when its center of power had shifted to East Java, according a source I forgot which

If anything, the sultanates of Demak, Pajang, and Mataram were all seek legitimacy by claiming as successor of Majapahit (bloodline descendant to Majapahit royal family)

It doesn't make any sense having cores for something that doesn't exist yet, especially considering I think Mataram is an emergent tag I think
many releasable nations in EU4 are nations that's not existed yet in 1444

As far as I've read on internet (the book I have about Palembang is about Palembang sultanate that touch the end of Palembang kingdom), there is no record on what happen to Palembang before Arya Damar (or Ario Abdillah) comes to power. Just that Palembang was known as Majapahit's territory (or maybe tributary), and that Ario Abdillah rose to power in order to represent Majapahit there. I haven't found sources that clearly tell early Palembang Kingdom, so I can't really answer how the transition happened.
according to "Runtuhnya Kerajaan Hindu-Jawa" by Prof. Dr. Slamet Muljana, Palembang was one of kingdoms conquered in the expedition to Sumatra that started in 1339, led by mahapatih Gajahmada himself.

It should be a vassal since then. Haven't finished the book yet, though
 
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MarkS00N

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The Medang Mataram Kingdom lasted from 732 to 1006, similar to the Kingdom of Asturias that is coming with the next patch. The second kingdom lasted from 1587 to 1755 during EU4's timeline, while Hobyo, Aussa and Kaabu have cores in 1444 although they emerged in the 1500's. So there shouldn't be a problem. Making Mataram the primary tag for Javanese and having events for emergent tags to more accurately display historical outcomes in Java as well as the rest of Southeast Asia would be beneficial.
While I agree that Mataram should probably be the primary tag for Javanese because modern Javanese attribute a lot of their culture to Mataram Sultanate (and the three surviving sultanates/sunanates trace their lineage back to Mataram), I think it is important to remember that Medang is not Mataram. The only thing they have in common is that both share the same capital region. Nobody in Java at this time seriously thought themselves as "Medang people", Majapahit has thoroughly supplant Medang in Javanese mind. And there is the fact that Rajasa dynasty (which all Singhasari successor trace their lineage to) overthrew Sanjaya dynasty (well, its successor dynasty to be accurate. But Sanjaya is the dynasty that ruled Medang and the one that successive rulers trace their lineage back to, so I simplify it a bit). It is very unlikely that any Rajasa (or its successor dynasty) will claim their legitimacy by associate themselves with Sanjaya (which I am sure already forgotten by this point).

So, if your idea is to have Mataram as primary tag for Javanese because Mataram is important to Javanese culture, and thus should start with core in Central Java, I can agree with that. But, if the reason for giving it the primary tag status and cores in 1444 is because there used to be a Medang kingdom in Mataram region, then I have to disagree.

And actually, Mataram usually is used to refer to the period when the capital still in Central Java while Medang is used to refer when its center of power had shifted to East Java, according a source I forgot which
The full kingdom name is "Mdang ing Bhumi Mataram" which roughly means "Medang in Mataram area". It will be rather weird (to me at least) to refer your kingdom by saying that it exist in a region called "Mataram" if it no longer in Mataram. But, that just my take.

according to "Runtuhnya Kerajaan Hindu-Jawa" by Prof. Dr. Slamet Muljana, Palembang was one of kingdoms conquered in the expedition to Sumatra that started in 1339, led by mahapatih Gajahmada himself.

It should be a vassal since then. Haven't finished the book yet, though
Yes, but there are two big events that happened in early 1400: Paregreg Civil War (which curtail Majapahit's ability to control its far flung territory) and Zheng He's treasure voyage (who install new ruler in Palembang). The question was, what happened to Palembang rulers that installed by Zheng He (and presumably independent from Majapahit, because they answer to and protected by, Ming)? Because as far as I know by 1455, Ario Abdillah is Palembang rulers and he represent Majapahit in Palembang.

Was the ruler (and his successors) installed by Zheng He gradually replaced by ruler more amicable to Javanese kingdom and thus reabsorbed? Or was Ario Abdillah just happened to be sent to Palembang by a ruler in Java and his rule was not connected to Majapahit? Or was Palembang ruler shifted back to pay tributary to Majapahit after Ming no longer interested in South China Sea? Or perhaps Ario Abdillah is actually not a Palembang king and just some kind of supervisor from Java? Or was it invaded? Or was it something else?

It is also important to know that Palembang kingdom (that exist until 1659) pay tribute to both Demak and later Mataram (as mentioned in Farida R. Wargadalem's book "Kesultanan Palembang dalam Pusaran Konflik: 1804-1825"). This tributary is explained as continuation of Palembang previous relation with Majapahit. But it is also possible to interpret that Palembang connection to Majapahit after Zheng He is a post hoc invention to justify their tributary relation with Demak and Mataram. However, as this become more speculation than real fact, I won't say much more about this.

Back to the point, I agree that Palembang in 1444 should probably be Majapahit's vassal (because Ario Abdillah's story), but the question I answer was about the relation between Zheng He's installed ruler and later Palembang kings (which subservient to Majapahit and its successors), something I don't know for sure.

mathuser seems to know more about it, so I will just go with his explanation in page 1.
 

mathuser

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While I agree that Mataram should probably be the primary tag for Javanese because modern Javanese attribute a lot of their culture to Mataram Sultanate (and the three surviving sultanates/sunanates trace their lineage back to Mataram), I think it is important to remember that Medang is not Mataram. The only thing they have in common is that both share the same capital region. Nobody in Java at this time seriously thought themselves as "Medang people", Majapahit has thoroughly supplant Medang in Javanese mind. And there is the fact that Rajasa dynasty (which all Singhasari successor trace their lineage to) overthrew Sanjaya dynasty (well, its successor dynasty to be accurate. But Sanjaya is the dynasty that ruled Medang and the one that successive rulers trace their lineage back to, so I simplify it a bit). It is very unlikely that any Rajasa (or its successor dynasty) will claim their legitimacy by associate themselves with Sanjaya (which I am sure already forgotten by this point).

So, if your idea is to have Mataram as primary tag for Javanese because Mataram is important to Javanese culture, and thus should start with core in Central Java, I can agree with that. But, if the reason for giving it the primary tag status and cores in 1444 is because there used to be a Medang kingdom in Mataram region, then I have to disagree.


The full kingdom name is "Mdang ing Bhumi Mataram" which roughly means "Medang in Mataram area". It will be rather weird (to me at least) to refer your kingdom by saying that it exist in a region called "Mataram" if it no longer in Mataram. But, that just my take.


Yes, but there are two big events that happened in early 1400: Paregreg Civil War (which curtail Majapahit's ability to control its far flung territory) and Zheng He's treasure voyage (who install new ruler in Palembang). The question was, what happened to Palembang rulers that installed by Zheng He (and presumably independent from Majapahit, because they answer to and protected by, Ming)? Because as far as I know by 1455, Ario Abdillah is Palembang rulers and he represent Majapahit in Palembang.

Was the ruler (and his successors) installed by Zheng He gradually replaced by ruler more amicable to Javanese kingdom and thus reabsorbed? Or was Ario Abdillah just happened to be sent to Palembang by a ruler in Java and his rule was not connected to Majapahit? Or was Palembang ruler shifted back to pay tributary to Majapahit after Ming no longer interested in South China Sea? Or perhaps Ario Abdillah is actually not a Palembang king and just some kind of supervisor from Java? Or was it invaded? Or was it something else?

It is also important to know that Palembang kingdom (that exist until 1659) pay tribute to both Demak and later Mataram (as mentioned in Farida R. Wargadalem's book "Kesultanan Palembang dalam Pusaran Konflik: 1804-1825"). This tributary is explained as continuation of Palembang previous relation with Majapahit. But it is also possible to interpret that Palembang connection to Majapahit after Zheng He is a post hoc invention to justify their tributary relation with Demak and Mataram. However, as this become more speculation than real fact, I won't say much more about this.

Back to the point, I agree that Palembang in 1444 should probably be Majapahit's vassal (because Ario Abdillah's story), but the question I answer was about the relation between Zheng He's installed ruler and later Palembang kings (which subservient to Majapahit and its successors), something I don't know for sure.

mathuser seems to know more about it, so I will just go with his explanation in page 1.

I happened to become interested in the area after looking at the Indonesia thread. My thoughts on Mataram are mainly to find a way to have more historical outcomes with Java, and Mataram seems to be more significant than Majapahit during EU4's time frame. Additionally, one of those surviving sultanates, under a branch of the Mataram Sultanate royalty, are still governing Mataram, which is now the Yogyacarta Special Region .


One of the books I linked is from ISEAS in Singapore, and it has two charts that summarize information related to Palembang.

Zheng He and Palembang.PNG

This details the interactions of Zheng He, translated here as Cheng Ho, with the Cantonese traders in Palembang, known as Kukang in Chinese. The chart summarizes the perspectives from Ma Huan and Fei Xin, who accompanied Zheng He. The book further details that the Shi merchant family, which was in charge, focused on business and their communications with the Ming dynasty faded.

Overseas Chinese and Palembang.PNG

Following the death of Zheng He and the decline of the Ming dynasty's power, the Overseas Chinese Bureau tried to prevent the deterioration of Muslim Chinese communities. The Overseas Chinese Bureau wanted to protect the communities in Palembang and elsewhere from Chinese pirates, so Arya Damar, or Swan Liong in Chinese, was made the Muslim head of the community in 1443. The book further describe what happened according to the Malay Annals.


Also, Palembang being Majapahit's vassal sounds fine as it was a tributary, but the developer diary implied it will be independent. There being an option to allow the pirates to take over Palembang before 1450, while the Ming dynasty's influence and Overseas Chinese Bureau remain, may be a bit early since they fought piracy.


Well, I mentioned the information on Palembang since there were a few readily available books in English as well as to support that Arya Damar was there in 1444. I don't want to push so much information in the Southeast Asia compilation thread just on Palembang though. Maybe Aceh and Banjar will get their chance next since they already have unused tags and existed in some form in 1444.
 
Last edited:

AessaSH

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May 1, 2013
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...

Yes, but there are two big events that happened in early 1400: Paregreg Civil War (which curtail Majapahit's ability to control its far flung territory) and Zheng He's treasure voyage (who install new ruler in Palembang). The question was, what happened to Palembang rulers that installed by Zheng He (and presumably independent from Majapahit, because they answer to and protected by, Ming)? Because as far as I know by 1455, Ario Abdillah is Palembang rulers and he represent Majapahit in Palembang.

Was the ruler (and his successors) installed by Zheng He gradually replaced by ruler more amicable to Javanese kingdom and thus reabsorbed? Or was Ario Abdillah just happened to be sent to Palembang by a ruler in Java and his rule was not connected to Majapahit? Or was Palembang ruler shifted back to pay tributary to Majapahit after Ming no longer interested in South China Sea? Or perhaps Ario Abdillah is actually not a Palembang king and just some kind of supervisor from Java? Or was it invaded? Or was it something else?

It is also important to know that Palembang kingdom (that exist until 1659) pay tribute to both Demak and later Mataram (as mentioned in Farida R. Wargadalem's book "Kesultanan Palembang dalam Pusaran Konflik: 1804-1825"). This tributary is explained as continuation of Palembang previous relation with Majapahit. But it is also possible to interpret that Palembang connection to Majapahit after Zheng He is a post hoc invention to justify their tributary relation with Demak and Mataram. However, as this become more speculation than real fact, I won't say much more about this.

Back to the point, I agree that Palembang in 1444 should probably be Majapahit's vassal (because Ario Abdillah's story), but the question I answer was about the relation between Zheng He's installed ruler and later Palembang kings (which subservient to Majapahit and its successors), something I don't know for sure.

mathuser seems to know more about it, so I will just go with his explanation in page 1.
As far as I know, the kingdom era of Palembang has completely ended in 1377 after their failed attempt to rebel against Majapahit and their king flied to Singapore and later to Malacca to established what later known as Malacca Sultanate.

While Palembang becomes a nest of Chinese pirate after the destruction of the kingdom, it's still technically a Majapahit territory. That's why Zheng He or Ming bother to established the Old Port Pacification Superintendency after pacify that area. Old Port is was the name used in the early 15th century to refer to Palembang, by the way.

The nature of this Pacification Superintendency is, maybe, similar to the UN Peacekeeping, because Ming still acknowledge Palembang or the Old Port Pacification Superintendency as a Majapahit territory.

After 1430, Majapahit was fully regained the control of Palembang and thus the role of the Old Port Pacification Superintendency was ended. That's why in 1443, Majapahit can sent Aria Damar or Swan Liong to Palembang to rule it as an adipati or duke. So, there's no kingdom of Palembang anymore, only a dukedom controlled by Majapahit.

Oh, by the way, Aria Damar/Swan Liong was a fascinating and important person. Before became a duke of Palembang, he was the head of a gun powder factory in Semarang. Later, he became the step father of Raden Patah, the founder of Demak Sultanate. And because its relationship with Raden Patah, Palembang gladly became a part of Demak Sultanate after the independence of Demak from Majapahit.

Just two cents from a lurker.
 

Zolf

Corporal
Oct 18, 2017
26
2
everyone keep saying "adipati or duke"
personally, I lean to translate adipati as governor or mayor rather than duke.
Duke (and baron/count/viscount/etc) are heritable title of peerage noble, while adipati isn't heritable. And as far as I understand, noble in this area only means he/she has royal blood. There's not such peerage noble system
 

NaiveCarto

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I'd love to see a China rework, too, in a hypothetical SEA DLC. Dharma and CoC set a new bar for the amount of detail. And Fryz, one of the betas, has done a formidable job in AoW and Mandate of Heaven regarding China.
I would do one post of Chinese provinces overhaul if I had time, while I feel impossible to fill these provinces' history txts; and there exists too many things for me to explore( even only refers to Ming China ) , this mod's provinces' developments are calculated from: round( province population in 1444AD(estimated value)/25000 ), mountains are planned to add and provinces' terrain set by a balance of population density and real terrain.

(I contributed to MT's China provinces overhaul, while I have not directly done it indeed...)
I hope the Heaven could forgive my lazy....
This guy's submod on BT is much more complete than mines, while not very right in provinces' shape: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1420514818
 

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BalticM

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I would do one post of Chinese provinces overhaul if I had time, while I feel impossible to fill these provinces' history txts; and there exists too many things for me to explore( even only refers to Ming China ) , this mod's provinces' developments are calculated from: round( province population in 1444AD(estimated value)/25000 ), mountains are planned to add and provinces' terrain set by a balance of population density and real terrain.

That China looks way too huge..
I suppose bringing China to India level of detail, that is ~200 provinces would be more than enough and would be very healthy for game.
And having this map it shouldn't be that difficult to reduce number of provinces to that level.
First merge all provinces which are split into "Eastern", "Southern" and etc. Then get rid of provinces which didn't exist for entire timeframe between 1444-1820 (I'm sure there are plenty of such). And finally get rid of smallest and least famous provinces..

More difficult it would to make such content for China that game in Northeastern Asia would become really interesting.
 

NaiveCarto

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That China looks way too huge..
I suppose bringing China to India level of detail, that is ~200 provinces would be more than enough and would be very healthy for game.
And having this map it shouldn't be that difficult to reduce number of provinces to that level.
First merge all provinces which are split into "Eastern", "Southern" and etc. Then get rid of provinces which didn't exist for entire timeframe between 1444-1820 (I'm sure there are plenty of such). And finally get rid of smallest and least famous provinces..

More difficult it would to make such content for China that game in Northeastern Asia would become really interesting.

This mod is NEVER disigned for vanila province overhaul, though I am willing to adjust Ming China to below 2000 developments, similar to India.
In fact, Ming has about 400 prefecture-level administrative divisions ( 153 prefectures+ 234 subprefectures ), so even reducing province number to the India level, 242 provinces, is a great challenge for myself. I have tried my best to reduce the number of provinces, and found about 300 provinces are a much better choice for Ming China.

I have found nothing about how to add provinces in Manchuria and Mongolia, too little materials and no divisions indeed.
 

Zolf

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Oh no... The thread is sinking. Does no one have anymore thought how SE-Asia can be improved? I want to see more posts about Brunei, Malaysia, and Indochina in general please...
 

mathuser

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The previous threads cover most of Southeast Asia, so a lot seems to be covered.

Well, the Brunei part of Borneo seems without suggestions. The current province names are anachronistic, so Kuching should be Sarawak, Jesselton should be Api, and Sibu should be Maling. Maybe a province could be added between Sibu and Brunei. Additionally, the Coast of Sarawak sea tile looks like it should border the Karimata Sea, rather than have the Straits of Johor be able to connect Selangor to Pontianak. Brunei should have some missions or historical events to represent its unique history. It also seems like it had tributary-like relations with nearby countries that would be nice to represent.


Also, here's a short suggestion for the Malay peninsula and Malacca's ideas from neondt:
Some suggestions for the Malay Peninsula

Only cores for Perak and Johor were added, while Malacca's ideas are still Malayan Sultanate Ideas. The Malaccan Ideas could be used by Malacca, Johor, and Perak while the same can be done for other historically predominant tags in the region. Johor could possibly be the primary tag for Malayan culture, especially if they add events or decisions to represent the fall of Malacca and transfer to Johor.

Idea sets, missions, and events could be posted here if someone is able to develop some.
 
Last edited:

fireduck

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I think South East Asia needs more formable tags, such as one for a united Philippines and one for a country to looking reclaim the legacy of the Srivjiaya Empire.

I also personally think that it would be awesome to have a reformable Cholas tag for Cebu. Considering how many times the Cholas have fallen and then reformed, it would not be unthinkable for a strong Cebu king to reclaim the legacy of the Cholas and go full "Mare Nostrum" to control the Bay of Bengal, as the Cholas historically did at the height of their empire.
 

Zolf

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Well, the Brunei part of Borneo seems without suggestions. The current province names are anachronistic, so Kuching should be Sarawak, Jesselton should be Api, and Sibu should be Maling. Maybe a province could be added between Sibu and Brunei. Additionally, the Coast of Sarawak sea tile looks like it should border the Karimata Sea, rather than have the Straits of Johor be able to connect Selangor to Pontianak. Brunei should have some missions or historical events to represent its unique history. It also seems like it had tributary-like relations with nearby countries that would be nice to represent.
It'll be interesting to have more provinces in Borneo come alive just like Palembang, especially the one that could 'connect' Borneo to Sumatra (Pontianak?) and/or Java... Honestly, I don't see the point why Dev keep so many uncolonized territories all this time.

I think South East Asia needs more formable tags, such as one for a united Philippines and one for a country to looking reclaim the legacy of the Srivjiaya Empire.

I also personally think that it would be awesome to have a reformable Cholas tag for Cebu. Considering how many times the Cholas have fallen and then reformed, it would not be unthinkable for a strong Cebu king to reclaim the legacy of the Cholas and go full "Mare Nostrum" to control the Bay of Bengal, as the Cholas historically did at the height of their empire.
well, yes and no. It may work for the Chola, I don't know... However

- There should be no concept of united Philippine at the time, according a Filipinos in a thread some times ago (I think the thread was about Magellan the explorer)

- As far as I know, at least in, Java they don't really put importance to a kingdom's name. Like... Airlangga named his kingdom Kahuripan instead of 'reforming' Medang Mataram after he toppled Lwaram, Jayakatwang named his kingdom Kadiri instead of 'reforming' Panjalu after he toppled Singhasari, and Kertarajasa named his kingdom Majapahit instead of 'reforming' Singhasari after he toppled Kadiri.

Interesting idea, nevertheless...

I happened to become interested in the area after looking at the Indonesia thread. My thoughts on Mataram are mainly to find a way to have more historical outcomes with Java, and Mataram seems to be more significant than Majapahit during EU4's time frame. Additionally, one of those surviving sultanates, under a branch of the Mataram Sultanate royalty, are still governing Mataram, which is now the Yogyacarta Special Region .
We need to weaken Majapahit considerably if we want a more historical outcome. Majapahit is currently too strong for a crumbling empire, there's no way they will fade naturally unless Sunda defeat them somehow, but it won't result in any historical outcome in anyway.

Here are my suggestions:
1. Put a truce between Majapahit and Sunda at the start of the game, for the reason in my earlier post and for limiting Majapahit movement at the start of the game.

2. Less initial fleet for Majapahit. They shouldn't be too dominant in the sea after the civil war Paregreg. At least, less cogs, it should hinder their expansion outside of Java a little bit.

3. This is important: apply some sort-life modifier for Majapahit rulers, maybe for the first 25 years or so. It could destabilize them quite a lot just like in history.

Historically, Suhita who was reigning in 1444 only lived until 1447, died in her 40s. Her brother Kertawijaya succeeded her and ruled until 1451, then he was succeeded by Rajasawardhana whose reign was even shorter, until 1453. After that, a 3 years period without a king before Girishawardhana took the throne in 1566 and ruled for 10 years, then succeeded by Singhawikramawardhana and thus began another civil war which ended up in king city Trowulan fell in 1478 and Demak gained independence. -- these early deaths were probably because Majapahit royal family for generations had always married to close relatives

4. Islam need to enter Java early in the game. The mechanic introduced in CoC was nice, but they need to be actively triggered by an islamic nation. And we know there's no islamic nation in Moluccas trade node in 1444, let alone one who has more than 50% trade power. Demak starting as Sunni province should be nice, I think...


---
Also, while looking for it, I found a historical inaccurate about Sunda. In game in 1444, Sunda was ruled by Mangkubumi Suradipati, a 70-something ruler without heir, who govern from Pakuan.

The capital of Sunda at this time should be in Kawali.

And the king should be Niskala Wastu Kancana.
Mangkubumi Suradipati was another name for King / Regent Bunisora, a brother to King Lingga Buana who died in the Battle of Bubat in 1357 together with his daughter and two sons. Because Lingga Buana's youngest son was only 9 years old, Bunisora ruled in his place until he was 23 years old and considered ready in 1371. Niskala Wastu Kancana ruled from 1371 to 1475 (104 years) and not heir-less. His son was called Dewa Niskala
 

mathuser

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So the patch is here. In addition to Palembang, the Mandala reform looks like it is available to all South East Asian and Indonesian tags.

So about Palembang, the ruler is Shi Jisun with the age of 21 and Wu Chinese culture. His father, Shi Jinqing, died in 1421, 23 years before the start of the game, and Shi Jisun contacted Ming in 1424 to replace his father. Their ancestors were Hui people from Hangzhou, which is Wu Chinese culture, while Shi Jinqing was a trader from Canton.

Overall, this is positive and time traveling rulers isn't something new.

Hopefully, more additions are to come for South East Asia.
 

neondt

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So the patch is here. In addition to Palembang, the Mandala reform looks like it is available to all South East Asian and Indonesian tags.

So about Palembang, the ruler is Shi Jisun with the age of 21 and Wu Chinese culture. His father, Shi Jinqing, died in 1421, 23 years before the start of the game, and Shi Jisun contacted Ming in 1424 to replace his father. Their ancestors were Hui people from Hangzhou, which is Wu Chinese culture, while Shi Jinqing was a trader from Canton.

Overall, this is positive and time traveling rulers isn't something new.

Hopefully, more additions are to come for South East Asia.

I'll likely give him a more plausible age at a later point.
 

mathuser

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I'll likely give him a more plausible age at a later point.

Okay, that's cool. It would also be awesome if you could change the later dates in the history file since it's full of fictional rulers. The Indonesia thread has a list of rulers for Palembang.

I was also thinking that Tondo should have the 1450 ruler, Dayang Kalingitan, as the heir in 1444.

Keep up the good work! Hopefully there will be more additions in the coming year.
 
Last edited:

withche.07

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I have compiled data about some Southeast Asia countries [Sulu (Moro piracy), Sō daimyo, Tungning, Cantonese Pirate Coalition (Red Flag Fleet)] and Aceh-Janjira(Habsan)-Ottoman influences.
2. Sō clan in Tsushima (Wokou pirates) (1444 start)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wokou
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sō_clan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ōei_Invasion

a. Records report that the main camps of the early wokou were the island of Tsushima, Iki Island, and the Gotō Islands.
b. Sō clan (Sō-shi) were a Japanese clan claiming descent from Taira Tomomori. The clan governed and held Tsushima Island from the 13th-century through the late 19th-century, from the Kamakura period until the end of the Edo period and the Meiji restoration. In 1587, Toyotomi Hideyoshi confirmed the clan's possession of Tsushima. In the struggles which followed Hideyoshi's death, the clan sided with the Tokugawa; however, they did not participate in the decisive battles which preceded the establishment of the Tokugawa shogunate. The descendants of tozama Sō Yoshitoshi (1568–1615) remained at Tsushima-Fuchū Domain (100,000 koku) in Tsushima Province until the abolition of the han system . The head of this clan line was ennobled as a "Count" in 1884.
c. The Ōei Invasion known as the Gihae Eastern Expedition in Korea, was a 1419 invasion from Joseon against pirate bases on Tsushima Island, which is located in the middle of the Tsushima Strait between the Korean Peninsula and Kyushu
d. Joseon also asked the Ashikaga Shogunate and its deputy on Kyūshū to suppress the activity of the pirates, favoring legitimate traders. In exchange for certain privileges, it gave authority to Sō Sadashige over ships sailing from Japan to Korea (Sō clan was the de facto ruler of Tsushima Province). After his death, the power was seized from Sadashige's infant son Sadamori (Tsutsukumaru) by Soda Saemontarō, a powerful pirate leader. Suffering from famine, pirates on Tsushima invaded Ming China in 1419. On the way to China, they raided Korea's Chungcheong and Hwanghae provinces after their requests for food were dismissed. After receiving reports of these incidents, the Korean court proposed an invasion of Tsushima. On June 9, 1419, King Taejong declared a war against Tsushima, citing that it belong to Joseon (Ōei Invasion), it resulted in conquered Tsushima Island. And following negotiations with Korea, the Sō clan agreed to make efforts to stop coastal pirate raids in exchange for limited trading privileges and access to three coastal Korean ports.
e. From roughly the 1430s to the 1550s, the clan worked towards independence, its sights set on gaining true control of Tsushima, and on establishing friendly relations with Joseon Dynasty Korea. The first of these goals was attained through a reversal of fate in which the Shōni came to rely upon the Sō for military aid against the Ōuchi. Sō Sadamori and his younger brother Sō Morikuni helped to defeat the Ōuchi over ten times, and in doing so deepened their clan's relationship with the traders and merchants of Hakata, one of Kyūshū's major ports. Being based on the mountainous island, the Sō clan heavily relied on trade with Korea. Fortunately, the Sō clan shared mutual interests with the Joseon Dynasty. In 1443, the Daimyō of Tsushima, Sō Sadamori proposed a Gyehae treaty. The number of trade ships from Tsushima to Korea was decided by this treaty, and the Sō clan monopolized the trade with Korea.[4] The Sō were required to greatly reduce the number of pirate attacks on Korea, and in return would be granted a virtual monopoly on Japanese trade with their neighbors on the peninsula. This would later lead to the emergence of the Sō as one of the major clans in Japan, their wealth and power from trade more than making up for their small territory and submissive position vis-a-vis Korea.

Tsushima island should be new province here and new daimyo (named Sō) under Ashikaga as sources clearly tell they beat Ouchi numerous times. Island was home to famous Japanese Wokou pirates (their ruler is known as pirate) but their facilities decreased after Korean invasion. But I still believe this small daimyo should have "raid" option. Or just having Korea as their rival should bring event to make "raids" available.

4. Moro pirates (Sulu) (1444 start)
http://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/11766475
https://historyofsulu.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/moro-pirates/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Sulu_Sea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish–Moro_conflict

a. The Moro Pirates, also known as the Sulu Pirates, were Muslim outlaws of the southern Philippines who engaged in frequent acts of piracy, primarily against the Spanish, beginning in the late 16th century. Because of the continual wars between Spain and the Moro people, the areas in and around the Sulu Sea became a haven for piracy which was not suppressed until the beginning of the 20th century. The pirates should not be confused with the naval forces or privateers of the various Moro tribes. However, many of the pirates operated under government saction during time of war.
b. The Sultanate of Sulu became notorious for its so-called "Moro Raids" or acts of piracy directed towards Spanish Settlements in the Visayan areas with the aim of capturing slaves and other goods from these coastal towns. The Tausug pirates used boats known as Proas which varied in design and were much lighter than the Spanish Galleons and could easily out-sail these ships, they often carried large swivel guns or Lantaka and also carried a crew of pirates from different ethnic groups throughout Sulu such as Iranums, Bajaus and Tausugs alike. By the 18th century, the Sulu pirates had become the virtual masters of the Sulu seas and the surrounding areas, wreaking havoc on Spanish settlements. This prompted the Spaniards to build a number of fortifications across the Visayan islands of Cebu and Bohol, Churches were built on higher ground and watchtowers were built along coastlines to warn of impending raids. The maritime supremacy of Sulu wasn't directly controlled by the Sultan, independent Datus and warlords waged their own wars against the Spaniards and even with the Capture of Jolo on numerous occasions by the Spaniards, other settlements like Maimbung, Banguingui and Tawi-Tawi were used as assembly areas and hideouts for pirates. The Sultanate's control over the Sulu seas was at its height around the late 17th to early 18th centuries were Moro raids became very common for the Visayans and Spaniards. In Sulu and in the Mindanao interior, the slave trade flourished and majority of these slaves that were being imported and exported were of Bisaya ethnicity, the term "Bisaya" eventually became synonymous to "slave" in these areas. Its maritime supremacy over the Spaniards, at the time, the Spaniards acquired Steam-powered ships that began to curb Muslim piracy in the region, the Moro piratical raids began to decrease in number until Governor Narciso Clavería launched the Balanguingui expedition to crush the pirate settlements there, effectively ending the moro pirate raids. By the last quarter of the 19th century, Moro pirates had virtually disappeared and the maritime influence of the Sultanate became dependent on the Chinese Junk trade.
d. For three centuries, intermittent attempts were made by the Spaniards to destroy the homes of tihe Moro pirates, who, almost without exception, raided the Spanish colonies throughout the Philippine Islands, south of Luzon, and even occasionally on that island.

Sulu ideas are somewhat ok but could be improved by more naval/pirate modifiers and "raid" option should be added to their country.

Even more to it:
5. Tungning

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Tungning
a. Zheng Chenggong, Prince of Yanping (14 June 1661 – 23 June 1662), better known internationally by his Hokkien honorific Koxinga or Coxinga was a Chinese Ming loyalist who resisted the Qing conquest of China in the 17th century, fighting them on China's southeastern coast. In 1661, Koxinga defeated the Dutch outposts on Formosa, and established a dynasty, the House of Koxinga, which ruled the island as the Kingdom of Tungning from 1661 to 1683.
b. "During this period the raids of the Moros continued. These pirates did much damage. This led to efforts on the part of Spain to conquer these warlike people, which resulted in the conquest of Jolo and the establishment of a stronghold at Zamboanga. In 1662 Koxinga, a Chinese pirate, demanded the surrender of Manila. This danger was so great that the Spaniards concentrated all their efforts to resist the threatened invasions and abandoned some of their strongholds in the south. The Chinese in Manila were suspected of feeing in the plot. They assaulted Manila but many were slain and the remainder left the city. The threatened invasion never was carried out for Koxinga died. The effects of the events cited above left Spanish prestige at a low ebb. Manila was no longer the principal commercial centre of the East and never again recovered that position. The century that followed from 1663-1762 has been described as one of obscurity for the Philippines."
c. "Another event of importance during the seventeenth century resulted from the overthrow of the Ming Dynasty in China by the Manchus. During the change of power and consequent disorders there, a Chinese adventurer, Koxinga, raised a pirate army in south China and drove the Dutch out of Formosa. He then sent an ambassador to Manila demanding the surrender of the Islands to him. The colony was weak and unprepared for defense, and consequently terrified. There were twenty-five thousand Chinese living in Pari-an, north of the Pasig River, in Manila. Fearful lest these Chinese cooperate in the designs of Koxinga, they were all ordered to leave the Islands. Unable to do so at once, and fearful of massacre, they arose in rebellion and assaulted the city of Manila. The result was a terrible massacre, which cost the lives of twenty-two thousand of the Chinese; the remaining three thousand built frail boats and fled to Formosa. The death of Koxinga occurred before his expedition reached the Philippines."
d. The Sulu Sultanate was also saved due to Koxinga, the Span ish had left La Caldera Fort

This country should be included as event to appear at Taiwan after foreigner colonies arrive. It also affected se asia, and used pirates. They even resisted Manchu Qing in mainland.

6. Cantonese Pirate Coalition (Ching Shih & Zheng Yi) (Red Flag Fleet) (late 1700s)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirates_of_the_South_China_Coast
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_Shih
https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/ching-shih-prostitute-pirate-lord-002582
https://www.historychannel.com.au/t...-becomes-one-of-worlds-most-powerful-pirates/
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-chinese-female-pirate-who-commanded-80000-outlaws

a. The fleet under her command established hegemony over many coastal villages, in some cases even imposing levies and taxes on settlements. According to Robert Antony, Ching Shih "robbed towns, markets, and villages, from Macau to Canton." In one coastal village, the Sanshan village, they beheaded 80 men and abducted their women and children and held them for ransom until they were sold in slavery. In January 1808, the Chinese government tried to destroy her fleet in a series of fierce battles. However Ching Shih managed to pillage and take over the government ships. The government had to revert to only using fishing vessels for battle. At the same time that the government was attacking her, Ching Shih faced a larger threat in the form of other pirate fleets. One in particular was O-po-tae, a former allied-pirate who began working with the Qing government, that forced them to retreat from the coast. For years, the Red Flag Fleet under Ching Shih's rule could not be defeated, neither by Qing dynasty Chinese officials nor by Portuguese or British bounty hunters. She captured Richard Glasspoole, an officer of the East India Company ship The Marquis of Ely, and seven British sailors in 1809. In September and November 1809, Ching Shih and Cheung Po Tsai fleet suffered a series of defeats inflicted by the Portuguese Navy at the Battle of the Tiger's Mouth and there was no way they would be able to hold out forever. In their final battle in the Naval Battle of Chek Lap Kok on January 1810, they surrendered to the Portuguese Navy in January 21 and later accepted an amnesty offered by the Qing Imperial government to all pirates who agreed to surrender, ending their career and allowed to keep the loot that same year. This amnesty allowed only 60 pirates to be banished, 151 to be exiled, and only 126 to be put to death out of her whole fleet of 17,318 pirates. The remaining pirates only had to surrender their weapons. Cheung Po Tsai changed back to his former name, and was capitulated to the Qing Dynasty government. He became a captain in the Qing's Guangdong navy.
b. Ching Shih’s fleet took leadership over many coastal villages, sometimes even imposing levies and taxes on the villages. These coastal villages stretched from Macau to Canton.
c. Once she held the fleet's leadership position, Ching Shih started the task of uniting the fleet by issuing a code of laws. The Neumann translation of The History of Pirates Who Infested the China Sea claims that it was Cheung Po Tsai that issued the code] Yuan Yung-lun says that Cheung issued his own code of three regulations, called san-t'iao, for his own fleet, but these are not known to exist in a written form. The code was very strict and according to Richard Glasspoole, strictly enforced.

I think this should appear as pirate nation around late 1700s, as they were very powerful according to sources.



Also Janjira/Habsan (which was somewhat piratical) should be made more likely to appear and has historical friendship/influence with Ottomans and Aceh. All of them use good old known Turkish flag so influence is obvious:

By the way wouldn't it be good if this se asia class was added into game?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timawa