Sooo.... Novgorod, The Byzantium of the North as of 1.23
- Thread starter William Shakens
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
It feels that way to me. At least harder than the last time I played any of those two. I had an Albania run less than a year ago and I didn't find it this hard.
Are you wiping tvers stack in the first battle? Are you carpeting them immediately?
The difference is that Novgorod can oneshot the Muscovian problem with any regular start (i.e. when Poland gets Lithuania):
ally anyone [optional, but helps to avoid Livonian declaration] -> release TCs in November-December [also optional] -> go for Tver on Dec 11 -> vassalize Tver and bring your allies in the Muscovian war -> then it depends on your own maneuver skills,
(Even if Denmark declares, you can give them 800 ducats while fighting Muscovy)
This is all unlike Albania which requires multiple restarts to be able to find allies before Venice and Ottomans declare,
and Byzantium who prays for Albania to be the first in the Turkish list (so that you can have your 3 heavy ships) + for Venice to be neutral (otherwise, no island trapping; or even worth, DoW from Venice in the Middle of the Ottoman's war)
And neither of these two can buy a 15-year truce with the Ottomans.
By the way, the combat width is only 20 units, so 4 + 5 troops are standing in the back-row, smoking morale damage of the frontline.
Sooooo, you can immediately develop Novgorod (or Neva) for 18 troops; with Tver as vassal you get +1 troop, and eventually you need to pay only for 1 excessive unit.
Moreover, for the battle of Novgorod you can sortie; that gives you 3 additional units. That means you don't even need to develop or pay for over-the-force-limit (in theory, but I would pay and develop to be on a safe side).
Last edited:
As I said I actually only reached the point of actually battling them once, and I did in fact wipe em out immediately (didn't even have to pursue them).
Thanks, those are good ideas about the limit, and I especially appreciate military-savvy advice, it's something I'm not very good at, particularly the effects of combat width, battlefield positioning (other than obvios attack-defense) and types of troops are things I probably don't put enough effort on thinking about.
I have played a couple of Byzantium games with the new patch. Ottomans love to go for the "Conquer Knights" mission. Combine it with Hungary rivaling Ottomans and you have an almost guaranteed victory.
As for Albania, it is guaranteeed by Venice, has a god general and I saw it often ally Aragon. As a player, getting Hungary is not too absurd
It's been updated
so now I can try all these suggestions on 1.24Are you taking mission on Zubtsov after rivaling Tver, which allows you to get month 2 war declaration? You definitely don't want to wait 12-15 months to fabricate.
Yes I am. I definitely can't wait that long. I'm DoWed waay before that could happen
Eh, depends. In starts like that you really wanna minimize the risk. Backrank damage can tip the battle (and it's not like MP or cash is a problem as Nov).
This is how I've been playing it.
1. Rival Tver, get the mission, then rival Muscovy and embargo them. Ally Ryazan.
2. Sell heavy and transports to Teutonic, Sweden, Riga and whoever else wants them. Played right, it nets about 180-200 ducats
3. Get the trade dispute CB on Muscovy, and DoW them.
4. Get relations with Poland and GH or Kazan.
5. Fight defensively against Muscovy and vassals. It allows you to familiarise yourself with some fort mechanics. Scorch earth to increase enemy travel time into provinces.
6. Once I top my relations with Poland and Kazan, and provided Poland got the union with Lithuania, I'll usually peace out Muscovy. And take either ducats, war reps or just concede defeat. Ally Poland and Kazan asap. Once Poland gets Lithunia, they usually rival Muscovy.
7. Then I DoW Tver, and usually, probably 80% of the time, Muscovy will also DoW Tver. So I make sure I can vassalise Tver and then call in PLC and Kazan, Ryazan. This usually happens within 2 years from #6.
8. Defensive war with a tired Muscovy and vassals, with fresh PLC and Kazan, Ryazan.
It takes some time to ally Poland, and even more time to get them interested in a offensive war. This strategy of baiting Muscovy and vassalising Tver is a quicker way to get them in. I usually finish my Trade Dispute war with Muscovy by 1448-1449, and in my 2nd defensive war with them by 1450-1451.
Things that can go wrong, PLC is in a war against Teutonic and Hungary and not responding to your defensive call to arms. You can time it by choosing when to vassalise Tver. If Poland is still very busy, sit on Tver without peace for awhile, I think you can usually wait around 2 years.
1. Rival Tver, get the mission, then rival Muscovy and embargo them. Ally Ryazan.
2. Sell heavy and transports to Teutonic, Sweden, Riga and whoever else wants them. Played right, it nets about 180-200 ducats
3. Get the trade dispute CB on Muscovy, and DoW them.
4. Get relations with Poland and GH or Kazan.
5. Fight defensively against Muscovy and vassals. It allows you to familiarise yourself with some fort mechanics. Scorch earth to increase enemy travel time into provinces.
6. Once I top my relations with Poland and Kazan, and provided Poland got the union with Lithuania, I'll usually peace out Muscovy. And take either ducats, war reps or just concede defeat. Ally Poland and Kazan asap. Once Poland gets Lithunia, they usually rival Muscovy.
7. Then I DoW Tver, and usually, probably 80% of the time, Muscovy will also DoW Tver. So I make sure I can vassalise Tver and then call in PLC and Kazan, Ryazan. This usually happens within 2 years from #6.
8. Defensive war with a tired Muscovy and vassals, with fresh PLC and Kazan, Ryazan.
It takes some time to ally Poland, and even more time to get them interested in a offensive war. This strategy of baiting Muscovy and vassalising Tver is a quicker way to get them in. I usually finish my Trade Dispute war with Muscovy by 1448-1449, and in my 2nd defensive war with them by 1450-1451.
Things that can go wrong, PLC is in a war against Teutonic and Hungary and not responding to your defensive call to arms. You can time it by choosing when to vassalise Tver. If Poland is still very busy, sit on Tver without peace for awhile, I think you can usually wait around 2 years.
Last edited:
Now I like that strategy, because it actually has a coherent plan to beat Muscovy instead of "let them integrate their vassals, then they ally Denmark"
In fact I will straight up admit that if its consistent it is better than my tech 4 rush because you don't have to go mil focus which is a very big sacrifice in timing.
Mind you if I was playing for my life I would probably still mil focus first but I like it now its a strong strat. No loans, almost equal timing on Muscovy 100% defeat time, you don't have burn two 2 dip slots on marches, etc.
In fact I will straight up admit that if its consistent it is better than my tech 4 rush because you don't have to go mil focus which is a very big sacrifice in timing.
Mind you if I was playing for my life I would probably still mil focus first
but I like it now its a strong strat. No loans, almost equal timing on Muscovy 100% defeat time, you don't have burn two 2 dip slots on marches, etc.
Last edited:
Denmark takes some time to DoW Novgorod, because no mission and no obvious claims, and if you're having positive warscore against Muscovy, it's very unlikely they'll do so.
I guess the important part is how you manage the 1st war against Muscovy. You want to maintain a high warscore, without losing too much manpower. You'll need to be familiar with fort mechanics, so that if the main enemy stack enters Novgorod through Ladoga, you can attack their smaller stacks in Neva, without fear of their Novgorod stack coming to your battle in Neva. I like to scorch earth to slow them down further.
Take note that if Poland chooses to rival Denmark instead of Muscovy, you'll need to rival Denmark so as to get the alliance. And further PLC will no longer be interested in an offensive war against Muscovy. So the best way to bring them in against Muscovy is a defensive war, such as vassalising Tver.
I guess the important part is how you manage the 1st war against Muscovy. You want to maintain a high warscore, without losing too much manpower. You'll need to be familiar with fort mechanics, so that if the main enemy stack enters Novgorod through Ladoga, you can attack their smaller stacks in Neva, without fear of their Novgorod stack coming to your battle in Neva. I like to scorch earth to slow them down further.
Take note that if Poland chooses to rival Denmark instead of Muscovy, you'll need to rival Denmark so as to get the alliance. And further PLC will no longer be interested in an offensive war against Muscovy. So the best way to bring them in against Muscovy is a defensive war, such as vassalising Tver.
Denmark only DOWs you if sweden claims your land or they take the trade mission that gives them a claim on Nevers. Improve relations with sweden and they won't claim on you.
Good point, because the only time I managed to avoid war with Muscovy at the beginning, I got steamrolled by Denmark because of a Swedish claim.
Is it possible to use the Arumba strategy to buy you enough time to join the HRE through the East Frisia strategy?
After all, once you are in the HRE you are pretty safe.
After all, once you are in the HRE you are pretty safe.
Is it by default? This looks like a change that I missed to notice in recent patches. If so, Albanian start becomes a piece of cake indeed
In any case, you fight defensively, so why bother with the Trade Dispute when you can call your allies into a war for newly vassalised Tver. The allies are non-numerous, but every bit is precious
Last edited:
The only problem with Nov starts has always been getting sandwiched in the first five years. If Denmark stays out and you get Muscovy solo you can win in 1444.
Def war through vassalizing is giving you exactly that. it's a pretty stable opening.
After you've won the first war you are already 'Muscovy'. Just like Byz winning their first war makes you the Ottoman Empire.
The rest is trivial. There is no need for an exile strategy, don't overcomplicate things for yourself.
Which is why the 'I'm a veteran player' comment from him was a misunderstanding. This isn't about being good in general. It's about being good with Novgorod.
Example mistakes from last thread:
- Grabbing nations for his trade league
Increasing POI on 'you' is just horrible. You want to be less of a target, not more.
I remember him even getting DoWed by the Ottoman Empire because he picked up Theodoro for some reason.
- Choice of Rivals
Not sure I'd even pick anyone other than Muscovy. Only creates crappy alliance nets. You also wanna save a slot in case you need to get additional points with Poland or Hungary.
- etc.
It's just minor things some people don't think of and I always assume that if someone's failing the start - even if someone succeeds - there's still a few steps that are being played incorrectly.
DK shouldn't even want your provinces, unless something got changed on recent patches.
You used to get a good start despite DK declaring on you if you avoided Sweden, won the first fight against a Danish army - suffices to make Sweden disloyal - then give them war reps in the peacedeal because a disloyal Sweden doesn't want any land.
Though nowadays they want Neva? Or it's still the same?
Is it by default? This looks like a change that I missed to notice in recent patches. If so, Albanian start becomes a piece of cake indeed
Yea, you start being guaranteed. Dunno if it's easier. I enjoyed getting DoWed by Venice, taking Dalmatia and jumping into the HRE last time I did it.
Funny enough, Albania was "my Novgorod". Had no clue how to play it, deemed it impossible, asked for help, someone said "join the HRE", done. Easy game.
Sometimes forgetting something minor suffices to make a start impossible.
Now, with Venice meatshield and no immediate declaration, I've just tried NoCB Papal State => Romagna => HRE.
It was never so easy. (well, actually there was a problem with military access, but nothing unsolvable; after the second wipe of Papal armies, Pope got declared by Provence and moved its ships away)
Last edited: