Sooo.... Novgorod, The Byzantium of the North as of 1.23

[William Shakens]

5 tries to start a decent game to no avail. I can't make it past 1445 without resoundingly losing a decisive war.

Basically, I start with everyone and their mothers as my enemies, Livonians, Lithuania, Denmark, Tver and Muscovy, every time. And there's no chance to get a half-decent ally.

Only potential allies Ryazan, Odoyev, and Theodoro. And Ryazan allies with either Tver or Muscovy so they are not a happy ally and they just don't come when Muscovy declares war... which they do... as soon as the game allows it. So no time to improve relations with Poland, or anything to get a better ally.

ofc I have raised troops to my limit of 17 ASAP, I've tried supporting Muscovy's vassal's independence, rivaling Muscovy, ignoring them... nothing. Ofc Odoyev and I are unable to face 24000 Muscovite troops + the 5 or 6 vassals they have.

The one and only way I've managed to avoid getting steamrolled by Muscovy and their bunch of allies as soon as January 1445 is to return the province of Velsk to them, where they have a core so they use them to get the CB.

So... no war by January, we're kind of on the right track after 5 attempts... War on Tver via mission while Muscovy is distracted destroying Ryazan, and the war is almost won with not much effort.

Denmark and the Kalmar Union declare war for Neva. They destroy me and my only ally, Odoyev, in spite of my efforts raising a total of 25.000 troops via mercenaries and loans.

If there's a way to a good start with these guys, I don't see it.

 

[in heaven]

Arumba has video on youtube with a very good strategy for Novgorod, I suggest watching it.

 

[bbqftw]

Arumba has video on youtube with a very good strategy for Novgorod, I suggest watching it.

By very good you mean buy muscovy time to get denmark as an ally, all while declaring a war where you can't really damage them.

Here is my suggestion. Basically a tech 4 rush combined with early blasting Tver while puffing your chest out so Muscovy doesn't DOW you until your tech 4 is done.

opening - rival Tver gets you instant conquest CB on them. They will almost always ally Odoyev. Ally Ryazan for additional insurance. Set mil focus, and get a mil advisor.

Take Tver and Zubtsov and vassalize then march Tver + Odoyev, this increases your force limit to 23 once Tver + Zubtsov are stated. Fill it out.

Sell ships, this nets you a neat 200 ducats that you can spend on buying mercs to throw at muscovy. Prioritize improving relation with Riga + horde in the meantime, on normal you are like -22 to ally so not too difficult. By May 1450 you have tech 4 adv and can destroy them even with their Shemiaka (you should position your armies to instantly kill Pskov and another Muscovy vassal's army, spread siege them for the rest of the war once you KO their army. Call in horde for land.

just don't waste time as you have a limited time before Muscovy hits tech 4 as well (I suspect that they start mil focus but cba to check). Once that happens your allies turn into paper and Shemiaka starts slapping you around, but you should have sieged 2-3 critical forts (Yaroslavl is the critical one) down by now, so advantage is with you since you can loan harder than he can.

End result:

 

[uberjedi]

Arumbas trick is good, but might require a couple of retrys.
Its about embargos and getting a special CB and using the forts/terrain to murder Psokvian troops repeatedly to get warscore.

 

[Betime200]

Arumbas trick is good, but might require a couple of retrys.
Its about embargos and getting a special CB and using the forts/terrain to murder Psokvian troops repeatedly to get warscore.

This strategy is useless and doesn't help you in any effective way.

 

[makaramus]

This strategy is useless and doesn't help you in any effective way.

it does help you. its giving you truce with muscovy so you can expand to livonian order ,riga,teuotonic order and grow strong enought to become ally with someone else or better simply defeat muscovy by yourself

 

[Betime200]

it does help you. its giving you truce with muscovy so you can expand to livonian order ,riga,teuotonic order and grow strong enought to become ally with someone else or better simply defeat muscovy by yourself

But why do I need a truce? I can just focus MIL and win war with normal CB. And during this amazing truce you still can be DOWed by Denmark.

 

[YuriiH]

it does help you. its giving you truce with muscovy so you can expand to livonian order ,riga,teuotonic order

If all the strategy is based on a truce (which is rather lame by itself), you could buy a 15-year truce with both, Muscovy and Denmark, for around 800 gold (as of 1.22 at least). For a merchant republic, these are easy money to get back, and you also don't need to waste time/money for maneuvering.

 

[bradles0]

take 6-10 loans, give russia 100 warscore worth of money instead of land, and don't fight so you don't lose anything else. Repeat until you're strong enough to defeat Muscovy by yourself by picking off minors, or capable of allying poland or austria.

 

[makaramus]

If all the strategy is based on a truce (which is rather lame by itself), you could buy a 15-year truce with both, Muscovy and Denmark, for around 800 gold (as of 1.22 at least). For a merchant republic, these are easy money to get back, and you also don't need to waste time/money for maneuvering.

its also crippling muscovy's economy wich is terrible at very start of game.

 

[Amadeu of Savoy]

Why 1.23? We are on 1.24

 

[YuriiH]

its also crippling muscovy's economy wich is terrible at very start of game.

This "crippling Muscovian economy" actually does not influence anything.

Reason: Muscovy is already over it's state limit.

In any Novgorod game, non-crippled Muscovy goes for poor steppe Sunni lands.
In very rare cases, it tries to fight Poland (which is very unlikely, only when PLC looses to Teutons) - and exactly this makes Muscovian economy crippled.

On the other hand, crippled Muscovy will not get those poor steppe lands, and won't enter a war with PLC. And this will stabilize its economy.

In other words, Muscovy does not get anything major in terms of economical advantage if it does not conquer Novgorod.
Neither it looses anything major if it stays with the same lands.

IMHO the two best strategies are either:
1) fight Muscovy (without Denmark) to death (alone or with allies/vassals/trade cities); hell, it was easier with terrain penalties compared to now, but it is still possible as stated above.
2) or buy her out to get more lands (Tver, Livonian Order, remains of Teutons, Riga, maybe even No-CB Ryazan to make a powerful vassal if it is not guaranteed by GH, or eat Lubeck, or Irish powerbase, or everyone together, or even Joining HRE within 15 years —all this for mere 800-1000 gold)

 

[Piotrzeci]

I think Arumba's tactic is a good choice. Making Muscovy suffer so much attrition and eventually leave empty handed sounds great, especially on higher difficulties.

 

[bbqftw]

On higher difficulties you will just get bulldozed straight up with 70k troops and the AI doesn't actually take loans there unless extremely pressured.

For VH I would do an Irish exile and flip catholic.

 

[tip001]

When do people stop using Arumba as a bill board? Arumba and "good" go together as the two positive sides of two magnets. Btw, did he ever finished the BBB? (one of the easier achievements)

 

[ChloePech]

Playing Novgrod is just about realizing that loans are your friend and that mercs are great. The only really good part of Arumba's video is turning Muscovy's core on you into a trade city.

 

[YuriiH]

The only really good part of Arumba's video is turning Muscovy's core on you into a trade city.

Why?

 

[ChloePech]

Why?

Because trade cities are good anyway and it forces Muscovy to take a mission it cant use if you do it well- which helps you and lets you have an easier time teching up before Muscovy decides it wants to eat you.

 

[Dominion]

When do people stop using Arumba as a bill board? Arumba and "good" go together as the two positive sides of two magnets. Btw, did he ever finished the BBB? (one of the easier achievements)

He did, but you don't want to watch it. Think I got physically ill.

As for Novgorod: We had that kinda thread half a year ago and I went in for 3 starts and 3 wins.

It's certainly not easy, but if it's impossible for someone I recommend just not using that nation until they get better. Don't share the sentiment that everyone has to be able to play every nation by default. Some are trickier than others, Novgorod is one of them.

 

[William Shakens]

Why 1.23? We are on 1.24

Because I'm using an aesthetic mod I really really like and it's not been made compatible yet.

He did, but you don't want to watch it. Think I got physically ill.

As for Novgorod: We had that kinda thread half a year ago and I went in for 3 starts and 3 wins.

It's certainly not easy, but if it's impossible for someone I recommend just not using that nation until they get better. Don't share the sentiment that everyone has to be able to play every nation by default. Some are trickier than others, Novgorod is one of them.

Believe you me I am a veteran player, idk about "good", but I've played many of the hardest, most-challenging nations in the game, with various degrees of success, but I've never needed this many tries to stick my head out of the water in the very early game. Maybe Novgorod requires certain specific strategies that I never needed to use before. Mostly because one way or another I think I tend to manage diplomacy well and almost always get some kind of ally or protection somehow to avoid catastrophic DOWs in the first few years, and I can't find a way to do that here.

By very good you mean buy muscovy time to get denmark as an ally, all while declaring a war where you can't really damage them.

Here is my suggestion. Basically a tech 4 rush combined with early blasting Tver while puffing your chest out so Muscovy doesn't DOW you until your tech 4 is done.



End result:

That's an idea. Although Tver didn't ally Odoyev once in my games, they allied Ryazan, 5/5 times, and they'll break their alliance with me due to Tver rivalry (and ofc if I attack Tver they'll defend them). I can beat them both but by the time I had conquered Tver I was already DOWed by Denmark. Selling ships may be a good point, tho.

From the look of a lot of comments, I'm going to have to throw a lot of gold at the problem. As an alternative I'll take a look at that video too, and try some of the strategies that have been suggested. Thank you all.