Sonderweg oder Anderweg? -- An interactive AAR in the Hohenzollerns megacampaign

[TJDS]

((Wait, so there is an absolute monarchy now? 0.o))

((Of course not, people overestimate the power of the Reichspräsident and the Kanzler, which are based on the current powers of the German Bundespräsident and the Bundeskanzler. Thus I can understand the thought that the Reichspräsident and Kanzler can become dictators, but I assume that that chance is very small, since it has not happened in real life, but due the low number of participants, and the seeming unlikelyhood of events that have already occured, I would not be suprised if some people try to become Reichspräsident-dictator.))

 

[Avindian]

((I think we should try to streamline the whole ability to appoint the Chancellor and ministers, since it will make coalitions even harder to arrange due to having to both arrange the coalition and get the approval of the Reichpresident. We could easily see the Reichpresident appointing a Chancellor and ministers he prefers, as long as they represent 51% of the Reichstag, which means we could see a forced coalition that's doomed to fail. On the other hand, we now have a way for the more extreme parties to get a Chancellor in power because the Reichpresident could choose them to lead a coalition. Perhaps instead of having the Reichpresident appointing those positions, we have the normal coalition negotiations but the Reichpresident has to approve them after they are presented. I'm just spit-balling ideas here to see what works.))

((That particular part of the rules definitely needs some work. I'm curious as to what TJDS has to say about his original intent.))

((Wait, so there is an absolute monarchy now? 0.o))

((It's a strong executive in some aspects, but absolute monarchy is a huge stretch. ))

 

[NachoEater]

((That particular part of the rules definitely needs some work. I'm curious as to what TJDS has to say about his original intent.))



((It's a strong executive in some aspects, but absolute monarchy is a huge stretch. ))

((But if he appoints the cabinet and chancellor, surely it is?
'The Reichspräsident, after his election, selects a Kanzler and appoints the ministers to advise the Kanzler. The Kanzler ((who will determine the ruling party)) must be able to command at 50% + 1 vote in the Reichstag'. In essence, the Reichsprasident appoints the chancellor and his ministers, no?))

 

[alxeu]

((The best way to streamline it is for the Reichprasident to simply appoint the Kanzler, and let the Kanzler create a cabinet the Reichprasident approves of.))

 

[PTSnoop]

((The best way to streamline it is for the Reichprasident to simply appoint the Kanzler, and let the Kanzler create a cabinet the Reichprasident approves of.))

((That's too streamlined! It'd get rid of all the fun of the backroom deals and coalition politics!

Naah, I think the best way to streamline it is to implicitly leave things largely as they are at the moment. The party leaders form majority coalitions, then the prospective Kanzler tells the Reichspräsident "this is the government you are going to appoint", and the Reichspräsident makes the announcement to everyone else.

The Reichspräsident wouldn't actually be able to declare "I've chosen my own coalition parties" by himself, without the consent of the coalesced. All it would take is for one chosen party leader to say "this sucks, I'm out" and the whole thing would fall apart. And if all the chosen coalition parties like the chosen coalition, then they'd probably have chosen it for themselves anyway, so the Reichspräsident hasn't really had any input.))

 

[Brothersid]

((While PTSnoop has beat me to a interpretation I have done my own reading originally to figure out how The Nuremberg Press feels about it and now to offer an alternate perspective. I will merely mention areas where i either have a different perspective.

On the Matter of the President appointing the Chancellor and his Ministers:

I believe it is worth noting that the President seems limited only by what he can make pass a no-confidence vote and (theoretically) is capable of refusing to appoint certain ministers as a method of power consolidation through indefinite maintenance of the status quo. E.G. refusing to appoint a Minister of the Interior so that no new Head of the Corps of Germandie could be nominated. Also of note is that the parties are entirely at the mercy of the President for a coalition and are probably going to have to make some form of concession to to the president to get the president's blessing lest they risk snatching defeat from the jaws of victory like the UAI recently did.

On Changes to the legislature:

It appears that everyone votes on all the plans now "In accordance with this general policy each national minister shall independently conduct the branch of administration intrusted to him, and shall be under personal responsibility to the Conclave of Stadtholders and the National Assembly"(emphasis mine)

All bodies of power (save the chancellor) need to sign off on rule changes regarding how the Ministries and Chancellor work now and such changes can only be written by sitting ministers or the chancellor "The Kanzler shall preside over the National Ministry, and shall conduct its business according to rules of the procedure which shall be determined by the National Ministry and approved by the Reichspräsident and the Conclave of Stadtholders and the National Assembly"(emphasis mine)

There is a loophole in the new ministries clause that allows a new ministry to be created by regular law so loing as somebody other than the government pays for its workers and their housing. "Constitutionally mandating a new ministry will require a special three-fourths majority in both Chambers."
This means that small ministries could have their payroll privately payed for and their work funded by the Government which is a clever way to get around the 3/4 vote mandate. "The Government may not cover the cost of bureaucrats or housing for a ministry which is not constitutionally mandated"

On the powers of the President:

The President's powers are techenilly undefined and (presumbally) absolute " The Reichspräsident's duties will include but will not be limited to proposing the Kanzler to the Conclave of Stadtholders and the National Assembly, appointing and dismissing the Kanzler and his Government, dissolving the Chambers under certain circumstances, signing and promulgating laws, appointing and dismissing judes, civil servants and officers of the Republican Armed Forces, declaring martial law with the consent of the Conclave of Stadtholders, excercising the power to pardon individual offenders on behalf of the Republic of Germany, awarding honours on behalf of the Republic of Germany and representing the Republic of Germany at home and abroad." (emphasis mine) At no point does the law estlabish what the limit of the president's powers is.

On the Coup System:

We need to determine what modifier A. being president is worth and B. what being a former president is worth.

I think that is all that is left to be determined. I will apologize for being late with this post and posts in the immediate future my refrigerator decided to stop working. ))

 

[Avindian]

((A compromise solution might be this. Chancellor forms coalition. President asks him to form a government (in the British sense). Chancellor names ministers, which President must approve.

To Brothersid's points:

I agree that the President cannot be part of the coalition process. If he is, the Chancellor is entirely meaningless and we might as well get rid of him. The President should be an impartial politician, above party politics, and thus must work with whatever Chancellor/coalition he is given.

I believe TJDS was referring to matters of general procedure. The Conclave and Assembly have to be separate, with separate fields of responsibility, or again we might as well dispose of the distinction. Constitutional amendments must exist outside the President's jurisdiction. Other matters, yes, the President should have to sign off on it.

How could a government ministry exist without the sanction of the government? I don't care who pays the bills.

The clause I put into the President's powers was purely a matter of covering my ass in case I missed something. I did not intend it to become part of the official law.

The coup system is a good point. I don't have any easy answers there.))

 

[Michaelangelo]

((A compromise solution might be this. Chancellor forms coalition. President asks him to form a government (in the British sense). Chancellor names ministers, which President must approve.

To Brothersid's points:

I agree that the President cannot be part of the coalition process. If he is, the Chancellor is entirely meaningless and we might as well get rid of him. The President should be an impartial politician, above party politics, and thus must work with whatever Chancellor/coalition he is given.

I believe TJDS was referring to matters of general procedure. The Conclave and Assembly have to be separate, with separate fields of responsibility, or again we might as well dispose of the distinction. Constitutional amendments must exist outside the President's jurisdiction. Other matters, yes, the President should have to sign off on it.

How could a government ministry exist without the sanction of the government? I don't care who pays the bills.

The clause I put into the President's powers was purely a matter of covering my ass in case I missed something. I did not intend it to become part of the official law.

The coup system is a good point. I don't have any easy answers there.))

((Yeah, I think having the Chancellor arrange coalitions and then the Reichpresident sign off on them is the easiest way, otherwise everything will get too muddled and take up too much time.

For the coup system, I would imagine that the Reichpresident would be similar in stature to the Chancellor. Both are positions at the head of government, and thus they should have a large influence if involved in a coup. If you think about it, the Reichpresident could technically pardon anyone involved in the coup who gets caught. ))

 

[PTSnoop]

((I think the Reichsprasidential interpretation debate has been OOC for long enough... Let's see what our characters think of the whole thing.))

Overheard from outside the Minister of the Interior's office. A moderately stressed Karl Adimari, talking to one of his policy advisors.

- Yes, yes, I've read the Nuremberg Press's review of this Presidential nuisance, but I'm not convinced by most of it. For example - wait, I've got a copy of it here in this stack somewhere - ah, here we are. Well, take this "power consolidation through indefinite maintenance of the status quo" ruse. I don't see how anyone could actually pull it off.

Look, I'll show you. Here, pass me that chess set.

What? Yes, of course it's relevant, pass it here.

Okay, so this red knight represents the HUN. The red castle is the New Society, the white bishop is the UAI, the white knight is the National-Liberals, and the Socialists are... let's say this red pawn.

It's election day. Each of these parties gets one fifth of the vote each, and the other parties get nothing and just sit in the box over there. And let's say I've been elected President, and I'm the red king over here. But I'm a corrupt President. I want to keep the government Conservative and I'll do anything to keep the white pieces out. With me so far?

The bishop and both the knights talk together, and they decide they're forming a coalition, with the bishop as Chancellor. And I say, not a chance, the red knight looks fine but I'm not letting you white pieces get ministerial positions.

Well, what can anyone do? The bishop-knight coalition will obviously reject any incomplete cabinet proposal from me, and if the coalition is true of heart and strong of purpose, then they can block any other coalitions from forming - there's no way the others can form a government, they can't get a majority. So it all just comes down to this staring contest between me and that bishop, both wondering who's going to blink first.

Well, that doesn't look much like "power consolidation" to me. I've not got the power, because no-one can form a government. In fact, it's worse for me - because if the bishop gets the support of the red pawn, then the four of them have enough clout to vote me out of office, and I spend the rest of my days living in infamy in that cardboard box.

And as far as I can tell, the other things in the review - yes, I'm done with the chess pieces - the other things have already been principles of government for a long time. The ministers are responsible to the Conclave and the Assembly - of course we are, we're responsible to the People and their elected representatives. It doesn't mean everyone needs to directly vote on everything. We were able to appoint unofficial adivisors and call them "ministers" before if we wanted to, they just don't carry over to the next government or have any actual constitutional power. And the President's duties aren't undefined and absolute - they're "not limited to" that one list, but they're limited by the entirety of constitutional law instead. The President doesn't have the power to dissolve parliament and make his horse the Pope, just because someone once wrote an incomplete list.

And as for the Ministries signing all rule changes, that one's obviously - oh, wait, he might actually have a point about that one...

(( Re coups, I think we should give Reichspräsidents and former Reichspräsidents the same bonuses as Kanzlers and former Kanzlers. ))

 

[Andre Massena]

Germany takes one step forward by attempting to liberate Ireland and two steps backward by moving closer to dictatorship.

-Herr Liberator

 

[Avindian]

((To be clear -- we're waiting on LatinKaiser's plan, not TJDS. If TJDS doesn't post in the next day or two, I'll make an official decision that we'll all just have to live with. ))

 

[Andre Massena]

Von Hohenstaufen is slower than molasses! At this rate we shall never win the war.

-Herr Liberator

 

[TJDS]

((To be clear -- we're waiting on LatinKaiser's plan, not TJDS. If TJDS doesn't post in the next day or two, I'll make an official decision that we'll all just have to live with. ))

((But I posted that my plan will remain the same, since we will never research all the technologies on the list in only three years.))

 

[Avindian]

((But I posted that my plan will remain the same, since we will never research all the technologies on the list in only three years.))

((I was referring to your Reichspraesident bill. We've spent some time discussing it, and I wanted to know specifically your intent re: coalitions.))

 

[LatinKaiser]

((The plan will be up tonight, hopefully. As for the Reichspräsident Bill, has anyone else seen the obvious possibility of a "25 48 53 formula" of authoritarian democracy? Not that it wouldn't be interesting, but it might tick a few people off.))

 

[AzagalTheGreat]

((The plan will be up tonight, hopefully. As for the Reichspräsident Bill, has anyone else seen the obvious possibility of a "25 48 53 formula" of authoritarian democracy? Not that it wouldn't be interesting, but it might tick a few people off.))

((Someone needs to coup ourselves back into democracy/ constitutional monarchy))

 

[Mikkel Glahder]

((Someone needs to coup ourselves back into democracy/ constitutional monarchy))

((You're always complaining that we don't have a monarchy... And we still have a democracy.))

 

[AzagalTheGreat]

((You're always rambling about that monarchy... And we still have a dictatorship.))

((Corrected))

 

[PTSnoop]

((The plan will be up tonight, hopefully. As for the Reichspräsident Bill, has anyone else seen the obvious possibility of a "25 48 53 formula" of authoritarian democracy? Not that it wouldn't be interesting, but it might tick a few people off.))

((Interesting idea... But if I've understood correctly, we've got a 25 and a 53 but no 48. The Reichspräsident can't sign emergency bills into law by himself - in fact, I don't think he can even propose legislation; all the lawmaking is done by the Conclave and Assembly. So we'd need at least one more constitutional amendment before the dictatorship-exploits properly start coming into play.))

 

[TJDS]

((I was referring to your Reichspraesident bill. We've spent some time discussing it, and I wanted to know specifically your intent re: coalitions.))

((Sorry I was playing C:S the Reichspräsident will have to offer the largest united number of seats the right to form a Goverment, with united number I mean a single party or a coalitions with a largest number of seats than the largest party or a smaller ruling coalition))