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Yay to Common Schools
Yay to the Spinoza Plan
Yay to the Defense of Germany Act.
Yay to the Spinoza Plan
Yay to the Defense of Germany Act.
Yay to Common Schools
Abstain on both flag plans; if I never have to think about flags again, I will live and die happy.
Yay to the Defense of Germany Act.
Hals Gutfreund, Assembly
Abstain on both flag plans; if I never have to think about flags again, I will live and die happy.
Yay to the Defense of Germany Act.
Hals Gutfreund, Assembly
Yes to Common Schools. ((For some reason I thought it was the first education reform we were passing, but just extending the existing one doesn't seem as bad to an Imperialist. 
))
The Carile plan is the optimal solution to our flag issue.
Yes to the Defence of Germany Act
))The Carile plan is the optimal solution to our flag issue.
Yes to the Defence of Germany Act
((For the coup system, you could have it done as a plot. Players would PM you stating their support. The more players who are in on the plot, the stronger the chance of success. The players will then decide a leader among them, the person who will head the new system of government. Up until this point the plot is inactive. This leader will 'activate' the plot, and give a time frame in which it will occur. The longer the time frame, the stronger the plot. At the end of the time frame, the plot is carried out. This will lead to any of the following outcomes:
1. Failed plot- Plot fails completely, most members arrested or killed. No casualties sustained by loyalist forces.
2. Bloody Failed Plot- Plot fails, members arrested, killed or fled to other nations. Few-Some casualties sustained by loyalist forces. Some politicians may be casualties as well.
3. Civil War- Plot fails, but most members still survive. They rally forces and create a civil war within the nation.
4. Bloody Successful Plot- Plot succeeds, some casualties sustained by plotters. Loyalist forces bloodied and disorganized. Politicians flee, killed, in custody.
5. Coup D'tait- Plot completely successful, government changed. Loyalist forces in complete disarray, most politicians in custody of plotters.
An active plot is far more likely to be discovered than an inactive plot. This is to simulate the
The plotters are not the only ones with such actions. The leader of the police, the gendemine (spelling?), will have several abilities.
1. They will have the ability to investigate a trail. This will involve them PMing the GM and asking for rumors. The GM will roll a dice, and based on that roll, give the investigator a vague rumor(s). Something along the lines of "Conclave member Yuri has recently spent late hours at a seedy bar." This rumor can be true, false, inconsequential, a false trail, what have you. This leads into the next to actions.
2. The leader of the police will then have four options, should he choose to follow the rumor. He may take any of the actions, during any turn.
a. He establishes contacts within the underworld. This will allow him to gain more rumors and more clues for him to follow. It will also influence the quality of those rumors, with them becoming clearer. However, there is a chance that his informants are killed while on the search, or of them double-crossing and turning towards the plotters, real or imagined. Should they choose the latter, and should the investigator be on the right tract, the Leader of the plotters will be notified.
b. The leader may set up surveillance on the suspected plotter, following their every move in the hopes of discovering a plot. This will lead to greater yields of information in a shorter span of time, but it also has the unfortunate consequences in that the plotters may discover the investigators doings. There is also the matter of when there is no plot, and the surveyed assemblyman discovers that he has been watched.
c. Finally, the investigator may abduct and interrogate the suspect, the suspects friends, or the suspects servants. The investigator may also 'raid' an establishment. This has the most chance of gaining information, as the suspect may break under investigation, or incriminating evidence may be found on the premises. However, this also comes with the most backlash. If no such evidence is found, the investigator may be charged with harassment, destruction of private property, etc.
d. The investigator may contact the suspect. He may ask the suspect to cooperate with loyalist forces, and become an informant. Should the suspect agree, they will play a negative influence on the plot, weakening its power, as well as learning/knowing the identities of the other plotters. They will also have the special ability to delay an active plot once. This will delay the plot by one year. This of course comes with certain risks. The informant will be highly likely to be ratted out, especially so should they use their ability. Even if they avoid this, the leader of the plot will still be notified of a rat should they use their ability.
3. The most important of the investigators duties will involve protecting the assemblymen in the case that the a plot attempt occurs.
4. If a plot is known, but it has less than 1 year to be activated, a Civil War is inevitable. To protect loyalist groups, then a state of emergency may be declared. Should this measure be taken, loyalists will survie the plot, and be more likely to survive the oncoming civil war.
If a plot is discovered before it is active, then the investigators may bring it to the Reichstag's attention and arrest those involved. Occasionally, the GM will use PM events to distract both the plotters and the investigators.
Resistance
The Resistance acts differently from plotters in that it is AI. Instead of attempting to take over the government, the Resistance uses terrorist tactics and attempts to assassinate important political figures. They may attempt to push certain policies through the Reichstag. They may also take a vendetta against a plot that does not share its ideology. If the former, then the plotters may hire the resistance to distract the investigators, at the cost of power. If the latter, the plotters might find themselves the target of a dangerous group.
La Résistance Liberté
This is the loyalist version of the plotters. Should the plotters succeed and overthrow the government, and establish an autocratic regime, the Liberty members will still have influence. Unlike the plotters however they may not coup the government. Instead, they may either undermine the regime, or declare civil war. To do this, they have following actions.
1. Raise support from demographics- This essentially attempts to gain support from demographics within the nation. The more people that support the loyalists, the more power the loyalist gain.
2. Stockpile weapons- This arms the loyalists, making them more dangerous should they choose the civil war path.
3. Undermine Regime- This reduces the influence of the regime, increases corruption and idleness of bureaucrats, and lowers the morale of soldiers.
4. Economic warfare- If the nation is not under a communist government, the loyalists, should they have enough support from craftsmen, clerks, or capitalists, may call for a general strike. This will close 1 in four factories, or all of a certain factory of the loyalists choosing.
5. Assassinate a minister- this will greatly reduce the influence of the regime.
6. Gain power over the military- if the influence of the regime is below 50, and the loyalists have power over the soldier demographic, then the loyalists will start to take control of units.
Once the influence of the regime reaches 35, the state will face uprisings and strikes. Once it reaches 20, the investigators and the plotters ability to perform actions will be greatly reduced. Once it reaches zero, it will collapse. Starting point- 75
The regime, will have access to their own form of investigator. In addition, the investigator may sacrifice a turn and perform one of the following actions.
1. Crackdown- reduces influence of loyalists in a certain group.
2. Propaganda- increases regime influence
Civil Wars
In a civil war, any member may declare their side. Then, army units will be assigned to both Plotters and Loyalists. Both sides will roll a dice, which will decide which side wins. This may be developed more as time goes on.
Well, that's what I think the system should be like. If I missed anything, let me know.))
1. Failed plot- Plot fails completely, most members arrested or killed. No casualties sustained by loyalist forces.
2. Bloody Failed Plot- Plot fails, members arrested, killed or fled to other nations. Few-Some casualties sustained by loyalist forces. Some politicians may be casualties as well.
3. Civil War- Plot fails, but most members still survive. They rally forces and create a civil war within the nation.
4. Bloody Successful Plot- Plot succeeds, some casualties sustained by plotters. Loyalist forces bloodied and disorganized. Politicians flee, killed, in custody.
5. Coup D'tait- Plot completely successful, government changed. Loyalist forces in complete disarray, most politicians in custody of plotters.
An active plot is far more likely to be discovered than an inactive plot. This is to simulate the
The plotters are not the only ones with such actions. The leader of the police, the gendemine (spelling?), will have several abilities.
1. They will have the ability to investigate a trail. This will involve them PMing the GM and asking for rumors. The GM will roll a dice, and based on that roll, give the investigator a vague rumor(s). Something along the lines of "Conclave member Yuri has recently spent late hours at a seedy bar." This rumor can be true, false, inconsequential, a false trail, what have you. This leads into the next to actions.
2. The leader of the police will then have four options, should he choose to follow the rumor. He may take any of the actions, during any turn.
a. He establishes contacts within the underworld. This will allow him to gain more rumors and more clues for him to follow. It will also influence the quality of those rumors, with them becoming clearer. However, there is a chance that his informants are killed while on the search, or of them double-crossing and turning towards the plotters, real or imagined. Should they choose the latter, and should the investigator be on the right tract, the Leader of the plotters will be notified.
b. The leader may set up surveillance on the suspected plotter, following their every move in the hopes of discovering a plot. This will lead to greater yields of information in a shorter span of time, but it also has the unfortunate consequences in that the plotters may discover the investigators doings. There is also the matter of when there is no plot, and the surveyed assemblyman discovers that he has been watched.
c. Finally, the investigator may abduct and interrogate the suspect, the suspects friends, or the suspects servants. The investigator may also 'raid' an establishment. This has the most chance of gaining information, as the suspect may break under investigation, or incriminating evidence may be found on the premises. However, this also comes with the most backlash. If no such evidence is found, the investigator may be charged with harassment, destruction of private property, etc.
d. The investigator may contact the suspect. He may ask the suspect to cooperate with loyalist forces, and become an informant. Should the suspect agree, they will play a negative influence on the plot, weakening its power, as well as learning/knowing the identities of the other plotters. They will also have the special ability to delay an active plot once. This will delay the plot by one year. This of course comes with certain risks. The informant will be highly likely to be ratted out, especially so should they use their ability. Even if they avoid this, the leader of the plot will still be notified of a rat should they use their ability.
3. The most important of the investigators duties will involve protecting the assemblymen in the case that the a plot attempt occurs.
4. If a plot is known, but it has less than 1 year to be activated, a Civil War is inevitable. To protect loyalist groups, then a state of emergency may be declared. Should this measure be taken, loyalists will survie the plot, and be more likely to survive the oncoming civil war.
If a plot is discovered before it is active, then the investigators may bring it to the Reichstag's attention and arrest those involved. Occasionally, the GM will use PM events to distract both the plotters and the investigators.
Resistance
The Resistance acts differently from plotters in that it is AI. Instead of attempting to take over the government, the Resistance uses terrorist tactics and attempts to assassinate important political figures. They may attempt to push certain policies through the Reichstag. They may also take a vendetta against a plot that does not share its ideology. If the former, then the plotters may hire the resistance to distract the investigators, at the cost of power. If the latter, the plotters might find themselves the target of a dangerous group.
La Résistance Liberté
This is the loyalist version of the plotters. Should the plotters succeed and overthrow the government, and establish an autocratic regime, the Liberty members will still have influence. Unlike the plotters however they may not coup the government. Instead, they may either undermine the regime, or declare civil war. To do this, they have following actions.
1. Raise support from demographics- This essentially attempts to gain support from demographics within the nation. The more people that support the loyalists, the more power the loyalist gain.
2. Stockpile weapons- This arms the loyalists, making them more dangerous should they choose the civil war path.
3. Undermine Regime- This reduces the influence of the regime, increases corruption and idleness of bureaucrats, and lowers the morale of soldiers.
4. Economic warfare- If the nation is not under a communist government, the loyalists, should they have enough support from craftsmen, clerks, or capitalists, may call for a general strike. This will close 1 in four factories, or all of a certain factory of the loyalists choosing.
5. Assassinate a minister- this will greatly reduce the influence of the regime.
6. Gain power over the military- if the influence of the regime is below 50, and the loyalists have power over the soldier demographic, then the loyalists will start to take control of units.
Once the influence of the regime reaches 35, the state will face uprisings and strikes. Once it reaches 20, the investigators and the plotters ability to perform actions will be greatly reduced. Once it reaches zero, it will collapse. Starting point- 75
The regime, will have access to their own form of investigator. In addition, the investigator may sacrifice a turn and perform one of the following actions.
1. Crackdown- reduces influence of loyalists in a certain group.
2. Propaganda- increases regime influence
Civil Wars
In a civil war, any member may declare their side. Then, army units will be assigned to both Plotters and Loyalists. Both sides will roll a dice, which will decide which side wins. This may be developed more as time goes on.
Well, that's what I think the system should be like. If I missed anything, let me know.))
Yay to the Carile plan
Yay to the Commen School act
Abstain from the The Defense of Germany Act
Yay to the Commen School act
Abstain from the The Defense of Germany Act
((That is a REMARKABLY detailed solution, but I could easily see that being too micromanagement heavy for players to really bite into.))
Aye to the Common Schools Act
Aye to my own plan (The Carile Plan)
Aye to the Defense of Germany Act.
Aye to my own plan (The Carile Plan)
Aye to the Defense of Germany Act.
((I feel like part of it could work, namely the initial plot system and the Resistance system.))
No to Common Schools. Persons of quality can afford schooling for their children.
Abstain on both flag acts, and I suggest the Reichstag passes a motion of censure on the next Member to propose any flag-related legislation.
No on the Defence of Germany Act. Even the most militaristic amongst us should realise that, for example, if an enemy can be trapped by a naval blockade, the army does not need additional funding. It is not as if military funding has not been forthcoming in wartime when wanted.
Abstain on both flag acts, and I suggest the Reichstag passes a motion of censure on the next Member to propose any flag-related legislation.
No on the Defence of Germany Act. Even the most militaristic amongst us should realise that, for example, if an enemy can be trapped by a naval blockade, the army does not need additional funding. It is not as if military funding has not been forthcoming in wartime when wanted.
((If Dr.L or anyone else wants to take a shot at boiling it down, you have a point and I think the idea is a great one. I just fear that much complexity in an AAR that's not used to it. I'd also probably go nuts trying to come up with modifiers for the die rolls too...))
I support von Gogh's Common School Program, the Carile Plan in the flag matter, and the Defense of Germany Act.
1. Common Schools: Aye
2. Flag: Carlile Plan though I would prefer no changes to the Archaeopteryx flag
3. Defense of Germany Act: Aye
-Herr Meningen, the Liberator
((I like the plot idea and civil war but I don't really like the investigation stuff))
2. Flag: Carlile Plan though I would prefer no changes to the Archaeopteryx flag
3. Defense of Germany Act: Aye
-Herr Meningen, the Liberator
((I like the plot idea and civil war but I don't really like the investigation stuff))
I vote in favor of my own proposal (the Defense of Germany Act) and improved schools for the youth of Germany. I will abstain on the question of flags.
Michael von Hohenzollern
Michael von Hohenzollern
Common school: Yes
Carlile Plan
Defence of Germany Act: Yes
~Konrad von Schwaben, Party Leader of the NLPD
((Also the members of the NLPD who haven't looked at the current discussion in the group, should take a look. Thanks.))
Carlile Plan
Defence of Germany Act: Yes
~Konrad von Schwaben, Party Leader of the NLPD
((Also the members of the NLPD who haven't looked at the current discussion in the group, should take a look. Thanks.))
(( I really like Dr.Livingstone's CK2-plot-style coup d'etat system! I think the declaring-a-plot rules would work really well. Although if we started using the system, we'd need some actual numbers for the likelihood of each plot result, how the likelihood of success scales by the number of people and time frame. (And such numbers would probably need to be tweaked as time goes on, to make sure things are balanced. (And maybe, to make things interesting, such numbers shouldn't actually be released to the players!)
I think the Gendarmerie rules are possibly a bit complex, though. I think an alternative approach could be to just send the Commander of the Gendarmerie PMs every so often - "Stadtholder X is believed to be involved in a plot against the Republic" or similar - with a choice of "Arrest X" (with a chance of X escaping to Byzantium!), or "Do nothing yet, just keep investiagating" (in case it's a false positive and X isn't actually plotting against the government). Arrests would be in-thread, in-character, and with much potential for cries of "police state!" and "kill the terr'rists!" by other players.
But much of the rumour-gaining and surveillance will probably already be handled in-character already. If a plot needs to gain supporters to succeed, then the plotters will have to tell people it exists in order to recruit them - no handy thumbs-up thumbs-down icon in real life! And so, I think less-revolutionarily-inclined players may well end up reporting plots to the Gendarmerie anyway.
And I think this one system could replace both sets of Resistance rules. All we need to do is to allow non-Reichstag-member characters to exert plot power, ready to sweep in and form a government once the old regime is removed. We've already got a few of these around (newspaper editors, von Hohenzollerns, etc). As long as we had a limit of only one plotting character per person, I reckon we could just use the one coup d'etat system for all forms of civil resistance.
I'd also quite like it if we could resolve coups with in-game rebels, rather than by rolling dice. But this would require further thought. And, of course, we'd need some new rules to cover whatever new system of government appeared in the event of a successful coup - I think the proposed constitutional-monarchy sounds fine, maybe for a dictatorship we could have multiple factions within the ruling party. But again, that's a discussion for another forum post, this one's going to be too long already. ))
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The current state-funded education system has proved to be a resounding success, and I see no reason why it should not be expanded. A well-educated electorate can only be to the benefit of a functioning democracy! I therefore support the Common Schools proposal.
I support the Amended Dual Flag Bill. I would not be too disappointed were the status quo to be continued, but I believe we should make some effort to establish a compromise between the pro-Archaeopteryx and anti-Archaeopteryx factions within the government.
And what I see in the Flag Restoration Bill is the exact opposite of that. Having lost the previous vote, Herr Von Spinoza resolves to eschew all compromise and re-propose the very same position as the previous debate - the debate that caused such disagreement and such damage to public property last year. I protest at such blatant disregard for the democratic process! Once this whole sorry business is safely in the distant past, I think I will look to enact legislation to prevent such rapid re-proposals within the Reichstag. But for now, I oppose the Flag Restoration Bill.
The Defence of Germany act is possibly a little far-reaching, considering the range of conflicts covered within "a state of legally declared war". Such words could apply to anything between a minor colonial skirmish, which would not warrant such funding, and a new Liberation War between the Great Powers, which risks many German lives unless full financial support is swiftly provided. However, considering the gravity of the latter, I believe we should not delay this particular Act being passed; we can restrict the funding of the former in some later Bill. I support the Defence of Germany Act.
I think the Gendarmerie rules are possibly a bit complex, though. I think an alternative approach could be to just send the Commander of the Gendarmerie PMs every so often - "Stadtholder X is believed to be involved in a plot against the Republic" or similar - with a choice of "Arrest X" (with a chance of X escaping to Byzantium!), or "Do nothing yet, just keep investiagating" (in case it's a false positive and X isn't actually plotting against the government). Arrests would be in-thread, in-character, and with much potential for cries of "police state!" and "kill the terr'rists!" by other players.
But much of the rumour-gaining and surveillance will probably already be handled in-character already. If a plot needs to gain supporters to succeed, then the plotters will have to tell people it exists in order to recruit them - no handy thumbs-up thumbs-down icon in real life! And so, I think less-revolutionarily-inclined players may well end up reporting plots to the Gendarmerie anyway.
And I think this one system could replace both sets of Resistance rules. All we need to do is to allow non-Reichstag-member characters to exert plot power, ready to sweep in and form a government once the old regime is removed. We've already got a few of these around (newspaper editors, von Hohenzollerns, etc). As long as we had a limit of only one plotting character per person, I reckon we could just use the one coup d'etat system for all forms of civil resistance.
I'd also quite like it if we could resolve coups with in-game rebels, rather than by rolling dice. But this would require further thought. And, of course, we'd need some new rules to cover whatever new system of government appeared in the event of a successful coup - I think the proposed constitutional-monarchy sounds fine, maybe for a dictatorship we could have multiple factions within the ruling party. But again, that's a discussion for another forum post, this one's going to be too long already. ))
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The current state-funded education system has proved to be a resounding success, and I see no reason why it should not be expanded. A well-educated electorate can only be to the benefit of a functioning democracy! I therefore support the Common Schools proposal.
I support the Amended Dual Flag Bill. I would not be too disappointed were the status quo to be continued, but I believe we should make some effort to establish a compromise between the pro-Archaeopteryx and anti-Archaeopteryx factions within the government.
And what I see in the Flag Restoration Bill is the exact opposite of that. Having lost the previous vote, Herr Von Spinoza resolves to eschew all compromise and re-propose the very same position as the previous debate - the debate that caused such disagreement and such damage to public property last year. I protest at such blatant disregard for the democratic process! Once this whole sorry business is safely in the distant past, I think I will look to enact legislation to prevent such rapid re-proposals within the Reichstag. But for now, I oppose the Flag Restoration Bill.
The Defence of Germany act is possibly a little far-reaching, considering the range of conflicts covered within "a state of legally declared war". Such words could apply to anything between a minor colonial skirmish, which would not warrant such funding, and a new Liberation War between the Great Powers, which risks many German lives unless full financial support is swiftly provided. However, considering the gravity of the latter, I believe we should not delay this particular Act being passed; we can restrict the funding of the former in some later Bill. I support the Defence of Germany Act.
((I might try to come up with some workable numbers -- I had no idea such a coup attempt would be so popular.
To make this actually useable, some guidelines:
-- Seniority absolutely has to be a modifier. There's a difference between a new guy in the party and the party leader being a member.
-- Other "bonuses" could include being a current Minister or other officeholder, a former Chancellor, former officeholder, etc. Biggest bonus would be for being the Commander of the Gendarmerie, I'd say.
-- There has to be a resistance mechanic too.
I like the idea of using a modified version of neutrality (from HOI3) as a way to see when a coup attempt might be successful. That is, start with a baseline of 100 (call it stability if you want). Then, people who declare in favor of the coup bring the number down. If it somehow got to 0, an automatic coup attempt would result. It must be below 50 for there to be an actual attempt.
What I'm struggling with is how to allow for resistance if the coup is undeclared. I can generate an event table based on the d20 roll, like we have for the present duelling system, to determine results, ranging from a hilarious but possibly fatal natural 1 to complete domination as a natural 20.
There must be a coup cooldown; I'd say once per Election Cycle.
Please, feel free to offer additional suggestions (and thank you, Dr.Livingstone, for such a detailed proposal)!))
To make this actually useable, some guidelines:
-- Seniority absolutely has to be a modifier. There's a difference between a new guy in the party and the party leader being a member.
-- Other "bonuses" could include being a current Minister or other officeholder, a former Chancellor, former officeholder, etc. Biggest bonus would be for being the Commander of the Gendarmerie, I'd say.
-- There has to be a resistance mechanic too.
I like the idea of using a modified version of neutrality (from HOI3) as a way to see when a coup attempt might be successful. That is, start with a baseline of 100 (call it stability if you want). Then, people who declare in favor of the coup bring the number down. If it somehow got to 0, an automatic coup attempt would result. It must be below 50 for there to be an actual attempt.
What I'm struggling with is how to allow for resistance if the coup is undeclared. I can generate an event table based on the d20 roll, like we have for the present duelling system, to determine results, ranging from a hilarious but possibly fatal natural 1 to complete domination as a natural 20.
There must be a coup cooldown; I'd say once per Election Cycle.
Please, feel free to offer additional suggestions (and thank you, Dr.Livingstone, for such a detailed proposal)!))
(( All sounds good to me. One thing that is going to be worth bearing in mind, though, is that we may end up with multiple revolutionary groups all trying to coup d'etat against one another. We want the Communist Party of Germany to be able to rail against the German Communist Party, the Revolutionary Communist Party of Germany and the German Communist Revolutionary Party (Plato-ist) - let alone the Imperialist or Anarchist groups, each of which will want a very different government at the end of it all. What effect should multiple groups have on this stability number? Are they primarily Struggling Together against the Establishment, or are they spending most of their time thwarting the plans of the Wrong Sort of Revolution? ))
EDIT: Forgot OOC brackets.
EDIT: Forgot OOC brackets.
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