Sonderweg oder Anderweg? -- An interactive AAR in the Hohenzollerns megacampaign

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Jacobi-99

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I am sorry if I offended you with my comment. I am just against so openly resorting to violence against one's own countrymen, which is a path these rebels have chosen. If they had wished to negotiate with words, then I would have used words to dissuade them from their misguided cause. Since they chose the sword, then that is what they shall receive in kind.
Clearly they don't see them selves as our country men and perhaps deportation would be better option it would save lives and boost the economy of their nation and perhaps could give us some better relations and even some revenue in our favour
 

Damerell

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Clearly they don't see them selves as our country men and perhaps deportation would be better option it would save lives and boost the economy of their nation and perhaps could give us some better relations and even some revenue in our favour

Now here is a real alternative. I applaud Stadtholder von Jacobi's proposal for deportation. Why create martyrs when we need not do so? I submit that our Liberian colony could make better use of a few miscreants, who would pose little threat far removed from a populace sympathetic to their cause. I urge my honourable colleagues in the Conclave to consider the possibility of deporting any rebel who surrenders.
 

Jacobi-99

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Now here is a real alternative. I applaud Stadtholder von Jacobi's proposal for deportation. Why create martyrs when we need not do so? I submit that our Liberian colony could make better use of a few miscreants, who would pose little threat far removed from a populace sympathetic to their cause. I urge my honourable colleagues in the Conclave to consider the possibility of deporting any rebel who surrenders.
I'm saying to deport them to a country that wants them, this will give them a chance for a bigger farming industry or army aswell as it would be good for relations and we could also gain some cash for the people. Like somewhere in the Balkans if they want or maybe even send them to our good friends tryansilvania or Scandinavia.
 

DensleyBlair

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I'm saying to deport them to a country that wants them, this will give them a chance for a bigger farming industry or army aswell as it would be good for relations and we could also gain some cash for the people. Like somewhere in the Balkans if they want or maybe even send them to our good friends tryansilvania or Scandinavia.
So we would be selling the people to other countries to provide them with labour? I thought we'd abolished the slave trade?

~G. A. Servatius van Kloetinge
 

Mikkel Glahder

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We must deal with these enemies of the state brutally so other dissident can see what will happen to them

~Konrad von Schwaben, Head of the Corps of the Gendarmerie
 

Jacobi-99

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So we would be selling the people to other countries to provide them with labour? I thought we'd abolished the slave trade?

~G. A. Servatius van Kloetinge
Would it be any different if we gave them to the aristocrats if Liberia. This will deal with our rebals thier population problem and army problem and of course our diplomatic position with these states and were not making them slaves thier a liability on our state so why not make them "rentable workers"
 

DensleyBlair

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Would it be any different if we gave them to the aristocrats if Liberia. This will deal with our rebals thier population problem and army problem and of course our diplomatic position with these states

That doesn't change the fact that it is illegal, sir. Frankly, I don't think that we should be discussing giving these rebels to anyone.

~S. van K.
 

Jacobi-99

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So what thier more useful to this world dead? What about the army men that will die for no reason? My solution is helpful and Peaceful
 

DensleyBlair

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So what thier more useful to this world dead? What about the army men that will die for no reason? My solution is helpful and Peaceful

What we should be looking at instead is why they felt the need to rebel in the first place so we can prevent future occurrences of a similar nature, rather than simply shipping them off to lands unknown so that they can't bother us any more.

Your solution is neither helpful nor peaceful, Herr von Jacobi. Not helpful as one would imagine that it may not be as easy as it might sound to deport these known rabble rousers. Neither will it actually do any good to this country. You would simply be putting the problems out of mind so that we don't have to deal with them. As for not being peaceful – one would not imagine that they will go quietly.

While they likely have legitimate grievances, the fact remains that they have chosen a poor path to obtain redress. These rebels are criminals, whether we like it or not, and should face appropriate consequences. Then, we can look to ensure it does not happen again.

~ G. A. Servatius van Kloetinge
 

Damerell

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I feel there is a great difference between endorsing slavery and the idea that criminals might face a spot of hard labour - even in Liberia. As a member of the DDA I seek to minimise needless bloodshed; that does not mean that I do not seek to discourage rebellion by punishing it severely. Transportation to our colonial possessions would be an ideal punishment in my view.
 

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I feel there is a great difference between endorsing slavery and the idea that criminals might face a spot of hard labour - even in Liberia. As a member of the DDA I seek to minimise needless bloodshed; that does not mean that I do not seek to discourage rebellion by punishing it severely. Transportation to our colonial possessions would be an ideal punishment in my view.

My own qualms were less with the idea that criminals may be punished via transportation or penal servitude – even if they are not methods of punsihment I would necessarily endorse – but rather with Herr von Jacobi's ideas to sell or give the dissents to other states and people. Considering that both of those things imply some degree of ownership, I saw fit to question the proposal.

~Servatius van Kloetinge
 

Avindian

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Deportation is a perfectly legitimate topic. That said, if you have a question about forum policy, bring it to my attention directly, via PM, rather than posting about it in thread.

That said, I should be able to finish playing tonight or tomorrow and then, hopefully, update.
 

DutchGuy

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At this rate the imperialists will try to ship out the entire DDA to Liberia

Carlo units his tea
Or if we all give in to all the liberal demands the entire German people would be shipped to Liberia...

The grandson of Maximilian von Hohenzollern, After speaking walking out and takes a good old fashioned German beer

((I advise to not drink tea,It shows your support for our arch-nemesis, The Brits.))
((Edit :If you are wondering Avindian, I will use this character as my statement maker while Ferdinand matures..))
 

Jacobi-99

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What we should be looking at instead is why they felt the need to rebel in the first place so we can prevent future occurrences of a similar nature, rather than simply shipping them off to lands unknown so that they can't bother us any more.

~ G. A. Servatius van Kloetinge
I agree with your statement but no matter how much we try nationislist are gonna try and rebal. How is not helpful? We gon help grow the army of our neighbours by a large degree, wouldn't be better in a war of they were fighting with us and not going oh my lets rebal? This will show that we are harsh to them! But don't want them to die needlessly! But would it be better Sending them to scandanavia or tryansilvania, people we should trusting help out, this would also help thier industry and even just thier economy in generl. It will bring more taxes for them, they will benefit from extra crafts man and clerks, they will benefit from the extra miners and farmers and they will benefit from the extra soilders. We will benefit by not losing our soilders lives or not as many, we will benift from relations with our friends and we will benefit if we are at war and trynsilvania joins because of thier increase in soilders.
 
Last edited:

Andre Massena

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Or if we all give in to all the liberal demands the entire German people would be shipped to Liberia...

The grandson of Maximilian von Hohenzollern, After speaking walking out and takes a good old fashioned German beer

((I advise to not drink tea,It shows your support for our arch-nemesis, The Brits.))
((Edit :If you are wondering Avindian, I will use this character as my statement maker while Ferdinand matures..))

((I thought France was our arch nemesis?))
 

GreatUberGeek

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The only thing rebels understand is force. By shipping them off somewhere, we give them the wrong impression, which could lead to more revolts. An eye for an eye; the rebels have made their extremely hostile decision, we must reply in kind.
Stadholder de Spinoza
 

Avindian

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1859: The cauldron of radicalism boils over

Germany’s domestic affairs, at the beginning of 1859, were contentious but not violent. A disagreement about the expansion of police powers for the Ministry of the Interior and the new Head of the Corps of Gendarmerie, Konrad von Schwaben, eventually became a thoroughly but entirely professional review of the backgrounds of every member of the Reichstag. The objective was to find ties to the increasingly vocal members of the Suffragists, who were suspected to be a Jacobin front organization. No evidence was found, but the vigorous debate between Michael von Hohenzollern, von Schwaben, and the DDA left everyone uncomfortable.

An uprising of the Carlists in Castille drew attention to foreign policy. By every appearance, their victory seemed likely, but armed intervention would have been extremely unpopular and the New Society coalition of Chancellor Bismarck was very fragile. The DDA leaving would not have crippled them, by any means, but there were already whispers and grumblings of collusion between the New Society, UAI, and HUN to keep a stranglehold over power in Germany.

TenATK.jpg


When the Carlists won in September, proclaiming an Absolute Monarchy in Castille for the first time in centuries, Foreign Minister Friedrich von Hohenstaufen had to carefully consider Germany’s options. Castille was a long-time friend of Germany and served as a helpful counterweight in case of war with France. France, however, was a shell of its former self. Castille was open to continued positive relations with Germany, but some voices in the Imperialists wanted to see the German army reassert the Republic’s dominance in the country without long, drawn out negotiations. The Foreign Minister decided to seek negotiations, for the present, as Germany’s international reputation was still a little weak with the annexation of Pomerania.

N8RHXs.jpg


What nobody took into account was how this act of seeming weakness would play in the German hinterland. A group of Byzantine Greeks, who longed to see the Purple return to Italy, misinterpreted the Foreign Minister’s reluctance to use force as a fundamental shift in policy rather than a simple example of pragmatic politics. Using wealth smuggled into the country by certain Sicilian families, who longed for the lax enforcement policies of the Byzantines instead of the tough law and order policy of Germany, these groups hired German mercenaries and adventurers to lead their undisciplined armies.

Michael von Hohenzollern immediately convened the Conclave of Stadtholders to seek approval for the use of army units to put down the uprising. The DDA abstained, and every other party voted to authorize force. Chief von Schwaben, unused to dealing with large bodies of troops, asked Hugo Unger for assistance, given his wealth of experience and expertise. Unger immediately advised the gathering of three full armies to destroy the rebels before it spread. Perugia was chosen as a staging ground.

3JYUKX.jpg


The quick, decisive plan bore fruit immediately. The smaller wing of the uprising in the Balkans was put down with ease. Many of those armies were poorly equipped and simply fled at the sight of the German army. The Italian wing was more organized, and meant to fight. They even drew blood, as the Battle of Salerno demonstrated, by far the largest of the resistance.

AfFypF.jpg


They had still more damage to do, as a small cell of the Greeks helped the notorious Naples Butcher escape from his prison. The Ministry of the Interior reacted swiftly, arresting and detaining a family of farmers who hoped to conceal the Butcher in exchange for considerations under the new Byzantine regime. The Butcher was killed, unfortunately, in the process of his recapture.

9hk79i.jpg


The rebellion, ultimately, broke before the disciplined and hardened armies of the German republic. By the end of 1859, only a few thousand remained around the city of Massena. The people of Germany went into their New Years’ Eve parties tired but calm, and Michael von Hohenzollern’s New Years’ Eve Extravaganza, the highlight of the Nürnberg social scene, saw no fewer than 75 of the 100 Stadtholders and 400 of the Assemblymen enjoying the finest meat and drink money could buy.

It is no surprise, then, that the Ambassador from Bulgaria would have also been present, and chosen to relay his urgent news just as the clock rolled over to 1 January 1860.

OMbfu1.jpg


The Bulgarians had only voted to declare war on Athens a few days before. They were confident they could defeat Athens on their own, but realized that, at the very least, the German navy might play an important role in their victory.

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The Athenian navy, 29 ships strong, far outweighed their tiny and inefficient army. With German ships first destroying and then guaranteeing access for Bulgaria to seize lands once called Bulgarian, the Ambassador swore the war would be quick and decisive. He also hinted that a friendly power within striking distance of Constantinople would not be amiss either, if Germany wanted retaliation against the Byzantines.

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While the Ambassador graciously granted Germany 30 days to decide, the 1 January session of the Reichstag had a number of petitions to consider. First among them were to choose which, if any, of the reform plans to pass. The Greek uprising had made some of the staunchest conservatives more willing to consider changes, if they would prevent further rebellions.

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The second proposal was from the Governor-General of Liberia, who given the population of his region, requested the integration of Liberia as a full fledged member of the Republic of Germany, with all the rights and privileges that entailed.

There were also the tiniest hints of the Jacobins trying to build support for a party to represent their radical ideas for society in a more benign package. Nobody knew where the movement would formally erupt, but it seemed very likely that, within the next five years, somewhere there would be enough support for Marx’s ideas to try to take them to the ballot box.

Two explicit measures to vote on, both of which would be constitutional amendments.

First: which of the three reforms do we pass, if any? You may vote for one, and only one, or vote “No Reform.” If no reform can, by itself, gain a majority of both houses, then the reform which gains a plurality will be put to the Reichstag in a second vote.

Second: do we make Liberia a formal state? A simple “Yes” or “No” will do here.

Finally, the Foreign Minister must make his formal recommendation on whether to answer or decline the call to arms. If he says to decline, nothing more is to be said, as in our government, only the Foreign Minister (with the support of the Reichstag) has the power to declare war. If he says to answer, this would also require a vote.

Any other constitutional amendments would be acceptable to introduce at this stage!
 

Andre Massena

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I propose enacting Universal suffrage so that all our male citizens of age can participate in the democratic process that makes our fair republic. For too long, we have excluded millions of our citizens, which has lead to needless violence and bloodshed.

Speaking of unnecessary violence and bloodshed, why should we sacrifice German lives to help the greedy Bulgarians. At least we did not waste previous lives in the sinkhole that is Castille.

Liberian Statehood: Aye

The people of Liberia deserve representation equal to that of all citizens.

-Carlo Brunelli