Some "worries" about Utopia

[-Marauder-]

While I am really looking forward to Utopia and some of the additions it is making. There's also some things that seem "questionable".

First of all, as it looks right now Paradox seems to be basically out to clobber Authoritan over the head as strongly as possible. We already know about a lot of dynamics such as slaves going towards Egalitarian over time and other issues that have the potential to become a huge problem for Authoritan Empires. Which given that most of the number crafting and information we have so far, makes it seem as if Egalitarian WAS already better without these additional issues attached to Authoritan.

Further, the change to Purging seems frankly speaking. Absolutely and completely horrendous. Purging already kills any kind of diplomacy permanently and indefinitely (with the times being so long it might aswell never decay) and being applied broadly across the board to pretty much everyone. Now they are taking a huge chunk of control away from the player. Making it not pop, not even planet but species wide only. It really feels as if they might aswell remove the option for any non Hive Mind/Fanatic Purifiers at this point.


Also, 3 core sectors?! WHY?!

 

[Njordin]

I'm really glad about the 3 cores change. Dont forget its systemwide and we can build habitats and terraform in utopia.
There's a +2 core civic too.
If the sectors were improved i dont care about less micro.

Dont forget the mods for core cap if thats up your alley.

 

[serpentskirt]

We already know about a lot of dynamics such as slaves going towards Egalitarian over time and other issues that have the potential to become a huge problem for Authoritan Empires.

It's a stealth buff to Xenophobes.

 

[Promethian]

Slaves cannot join factions. So egal attraction only matters if you have some crazy idea about freeing those pops.

The remaining issues are balanced by the fact that slaves have crazy output. Slavery is a risk vs reward and micro gambit. Do the micro to keep the slaves in line and you have well defended planets with high output.

 

[henzington]

Xenophobic empires already don't tend to have many treaties combine this with a faction that supports this. Don't forget authoritive gets an option to displace aliens rather then purge them.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

First of all, as it looks right now Paradox seems to be basically out to clobber Authoritan over the head as strongly as possible. We already know about a lot of dynamics such as slaves going towards Egalitarian over time and other issues that have the potential to become a huge problem for Authoritan Empires. Which given that most of the number crafting and information we have so far, makes it seem as if Egalitarian WAS already better without these additional issues attached to Authoritan.

Caste system removes a lot of the micromanagement from Authoritarians, the unrest changes allow you to keep slaves from rebelling by using slave armies so there's no longer any reason to regulate your slavery. And there are some tasty government traits like slaver guilds that build on that.

Authoritarians are in a fine spot come Utopia. Unity is going to be necessary for some of the fun stuff, and Authoritarians don't do the best there. But it's still mineral production that drives expansion, development and war, and Authoritarians still produce minerals better than anybody else.

 

[Alblaka]

First of all, as it looks right now Paradox seems to be basically out to clobber Authoritan over the head as strongly as possible.

... did you even try playing as Collectivist slaver recently? Sectors can't tell Slaves from normal pops and if you want to get any relevant bonus from having slaves, you will have to invest tons of influence to be allowed to micro the heck out of your core systems to gain some minerals. Past the early game, Slaves are a pain to play with.
Streamlining that process in Utopia will, compleetly regardless of whether they nerf slavery, actually make it a possible option that doesn't drag down the game.

And don't forget the fix to Migration, which hit Egalitarians far worse then slavery.

Further, the change to Purging seems frankly speaking. Absolutely and completely horrendous. Purging already kills any kind of diplomacy permanently and indefinitely (with the times being so long it might aswell never decay) and being applied broadly across the board to pretty much everyone. Now they are taking a huge chunk of control away from the player. Making it not pop, not even planet but species wide only. It really feels as if they might aswell remove the option for any non Hive Mind/Fanatic Purifiers at this point.

I kind of agree with this and I kind of don't.
Yes, Purging was made less of a super-minmax-player-intervention tool. But I would argue, that is not exactly a bad thing. It gave players a big advantage over AI, who can't possibly handlethat. And it felt gimmicky over fitting to the theme of Stellaris.

Sure it's a nerf, but it's one that emphasizes RP-realism and fairness, which I can approve of.

 

[Slynx]

Slaves cannot join factions. So egal attraction only matters if you have some crazy idea about freeing those pops.

so if you'll get tired of being authoritarian (or that there are some strange ethics(xenophile, pacifism) - enslave everyone and release after N years?

you will have to invest tons of influence to be allowed to micro the heck out of your core systems to gain some minerals

yes. micro is good.

Past the early game, Slaves are a pain to play with.

definitely not. specialize core worlds for energy production and then you can enslave everyone else. minerals will be strong in your empire. (and science is not needed..)

Purging already kills any kind of diplomacy permanently and indefinitely

as if you should care about diplomacy. it's non-existent in a game right now.

Making it not pop, not even planet but species wide only

if you conquered someone they all will be on the same planets. so you can purge them simultaneously to solve your problem.

 

[Ezumiyr]

So, they nerfed a little but your favourite "playstyle" and you're not happy with it.
I'm seriously hesitating to throw a "gitgud" at you.

 

[Diezy]

It'd be a nice thing if the first 2 additional core world techs were to come up earlier in the game, roughly around the time when you can get Terraforming and the +Border techs.

Though I could also argue that with Utopia, the extra core techs are coming up roughly around the same time I'd finish a ringworld to directly govern!

So at least it gets to have some more uses, aside of directly governing the Fallen Empire's Home System.

 

[Chieron]

The only thing that really annoys me about the new purge policy is that it seems to be all or nothing.
I can not just cull half of a species to make room for other pops on their planets, to get a properly mixed planet.

 

[Slynx]

The only thing that really annoys me about the new purge policy is that it seems to be all or nothing.
I can not just cull half of a species to make room for other pops on their planets, to get a properly mixed planet.

maybe they think it's wrong to kill people. and force you to pay influence for resettlement. (though imho it doesn't look as authoritarian way to solve problems)

 

[CocoCincinnati]

Unhappy slaves have a lower impact on unrest than unhappy pops who are not slaves. And we don't know really how the unrest and faction system are going to function beyond the basics. You might be worried about nothing or you might have some valid concerns, only playing the game will reveal which.

I've never been much of a purger so I can't speak on that. It certainly sounds like it made the system easier but from your post, maybe that's not the case. Either way, I kind of like the idea of some pops being able to escape to other empires, although I wish those other empires would get the option of accepting them on a case by case basis instead of just a policy where you accept any and all.

I completely agree about the core systems. The cynic in me sees the decrease as simply an attempt to make pacifist more attractive, although I can't imagine the lore behind why pacifist are supposed to be better at managing more planets than other ethics are. But for me, this just guarantees that I'll be using mods.

 

[Bayes]

There is no worry, only hype.

 

[WhiteWeasel]

It'd be a nice thing if the first 2 additional core world techs were to come up earlier in the game, roughly around the time when you can get Terraforming and the +Border techs.

Though I could also argue that with Utopia, the extra core techs are coming up roughly around the same time I'd finish a ringworld to directly govern!

So at least it gets to have some more uses, aside of directly governing the Fallen Empire's Home System.

By the way, it's core system count. A ring world system would count as one.

Purging already kills any kind of diplomacy permanently and indefinitely. (with the times being so long it might aswell never decay) and being applied broadly across the board to pretty much everyone. Now they are taking a huge chunk of control away from the player.

That's kinda the point. If are playing with the fanatic purifiers civic (and thus have auto purge), you are not interested in diplomacy.

 

[Slynx]

If are playing with the fanatic purifiers civic (and thus have auto purge), you are not interested in diplomacy.

though purges are not exclusive to Fanatic Purifiers...and don't forget that you're purging your own people too, but some pacifist-xenophile on the other side of the galaxy who has no chance to go even near your empire...suddenly care about it.

 

[GC13]

Unhappy slaves have a lower impact on unrest than unhappy pops who are not slaves.

They still have 3/4 the effect of an unhappy free Pop.

 

[melkor88]

What was the view point in reducing core sectors?

 

[Slynx]

What was the view point in reducing core sectors?

they said on Starfish stream something about slowing down...or smth like that.

 

[ArguableThought]

While I tend to play nice(r) empires and only have purged for Suffer Not the Alien, I can empathize with some concerns of those who enjoy team evil. When gunning for the achievement, I often felt the desire to purge particular worlds so I didn't lose territory in the process. This gave me time to terraform it and seed it with my starting species.

I can see RP reasons for this as well, piecemeal purging large planets or those with good boons to make room for the "right" species. If one planet caught xenophilia and started protesting, an evil empire might make the first move of stationing lots of armies there to reduce unrest. This doesn't end the perceived threat, though, and doesn't get you the productivity back, so you might later purge the troublesome population (single reactor ignition, only) to make room for loyal citizens. In Utopia/Banks you can't do that.

Though, I will note you do have options - making the planet a core will remove the empire ethics attraction malus and you can throw on re-education campaigns. I'd also hold your fire until you see what options the game gives you, especially with the changes in ethics, factions, unrest, and traditions.

Xenophiles/egalitarians will have new problems soon, too. Militarist factions drumming for wars, isolationist pacifists looking to stop treaties with other empires, accepting refugees from you purgers that may have dramatically different ethics from our population (or are repugnant or carry some similar bad trait).

Adding new complexity will add new constraints, but that's the mother of strategy. You may have to adapt, but I doubt xenophobes/collectivists are broken.