Some topics we should avoid ?

[arbiter6]

Hey guys !

I don't know if you ever checked the HOI forums but there are those stickied posts about the few topics that NOONE should discuss (AFAIR : the holocaust and all the measures linked to it and the Nazi flag for German players)

When I first saw those I was really surprised and even a bit shocked "What ? I mean it's a historical game and those things HAPPENED ! How can we just sweep it under the carpet ! GET ME MY LAWYER ! MY CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH HAS BEEN SPAT ON !"

Then I remembered we are on the internet...

And I thought about it for a while : The impunity, the Real life frustration, all those negative vibes we keep to ourselves that we can freely vent online...

It made perfect sense to forbid CERTAIN topics to be discussed.

It wasn't about freedom of speech or revisionism, or even about defending rights for the sake of defending them.

It was about having a great community where everyone could talk about beautifully complex games and get help.

***

Now, I was consistently happy with the fact that, even though sometimes things got a little out of hand with the crazy historical meaningless/groundless debates, the EU3 forum was still a "community forum" on which most controversial discussions were avoided and we stayed in "Game mechanics and opinions on how to improve the game"


Recently though we had a few topics that got ABNORMALLY controversial for the sake of creating conflict.

I think the original posters had no intentions of making it controversial but it still happened....
(From "historical debates about pike men" to "Do women play EU3" not forgetting "EU3 has lost a lot of its punch, It sucks compared to Medieval 2" and even "Can you HONNESTLY play EU3 without cheating"...) The next level i'm expecting/fearing is "Can black people truly play EU3 without being reminded of how they got easily colonized IRL ???" and others...

I hope my post won't join this dynasty either...

What I'm asking is the following :

-What is your opinion on keeping CERTAIN topics definitely OUT of this forum ?

-Can mods establish a list of those topics that could result in warnings (and sticky it)?

-What will be the Stab hit to enforce those measures ?

Comments?

 

[I am.]

Hey guys !

What I'm asking is the following :

-What is your opinion on keeping CERTAIN topics definitely OUT of this forum ?

-Can mods establish a list of those topics that could result in warnings (and sticky it)?

-What will be the Stab hit to enforce those measures ?

Comments?

1. Personally, I think that there should be no reason to censor certain topics if we can discuss in a civilized manner... and we should discuss everything game-related... Just because there is a group of players that start insulting whenever their eyes come across some "keyword" in a thread(especially when someone asks a question regarding culture in a province or similar), does not mean we should all be treated as retarded and banned from certain topics...

2. Don`t get me wrong, relating to your post about the HoI3 forum, I do not think that some aspects of the game should be banned or taken out just for the sake of keeping history under the carpet... And I do not believe that everything is black and white, things are usually in between... For example, If you demonize the swastika which numerous cultures used as a peaceful symbol for millenia, just because some deviant psycho used it for some limited period of history, is just plain wrong...
And in HoI3, while there are no terror bombings or prisoner camps (while many sides in the conflict had them, you still have the great Officer purge as an option (yeah, that is not sadistic slaughter of innocent people in some views), and you have the Atomic bomb (hello, millions of innocent people... anyone???)... So, as it happened, you can not distance yourselves from it... We should just keep our heads cool and discuss those things in a civilized manner...
Personally, I strongly disagree with closing topics just because some nationalists start insulting... they should be banned, their replies deleted, and voala, civilized discussion is back on the agenda... we can only learn from conflicting points of view, as long as we stay on topic...
In short - I disagree with topics creating warnings

- Stab hit is pretty simple IMHO - warn if the ofence is not that drastic or insulting, - ban user and IP adress if it is or if it occurs more than once...
There are plenty of people that will keep the forums alive even if a number of users are banned

 

[arbiter6]

We should just keep our heads cool and discuss those things in a civilized manner...
Personally, I strongly disagree with closing topics just because some nationalists start insulting... they should be banned, their replies deleted, and voala, civilized discussion is back on the agenda... we can only learn from conflicting points of view, as long as we stay on topic...
In short - I disagree with topics creating warnings

- Stab hit is pretty simple IMHO - warn if the ofence is not that drastic or insulting, - ban user and IP adress if it is or if it occurs more than once...
There are plenty of people that will keep the forums alive even if a number of users are banned

Well as I said, I'm not one to defend censorship and I would much rather prefer everyone be reasonable... But that's just plain utopia. I mean if we could just "All be reasonable" there would be no need for repressive laws in any societies. Just warning ones. You could probably leave a bag of gold next to a 14 year old virgin with a group of 20 men and nothing would happen. (I used that exemple because I remember reading it about some empire so safe that the some scholar said that about it :rofl: )

Unfortunately, as of now, this forum lacks 2 things :

1) A 100% portion of reasonable people.

2) A post warning about what EXACTLY is out of order. I mean you can't exactly ban someone for not respecting rules that weren't written down in the first place, even if those seem obvious to all.

 

[unmerged(128725)]

Freedom works when people respect each other, tolerate different viewpoints and discuss in a civil fashon.

Banning topics and threatening warnings acknowledge ignorance and reduce freedom. While necessary in certain domains, it does not appear to be necessary in this forum, IMHO. Moderator action suffices.

The reasons:

1) it's a game! Not that critical to the fate of the real world.
2) it's a NICHE HISTORY game! There isn't a vulgar mass of uneducated barbarians playing it.
3) we know each other, or at least have a clue of each other's "alias life". We are more easily stewarded in a personal, familiar way (a private suggestion first)
4) moderators here do on the whole a pretty good job, AFAIK.

 

[ForzaA]

It didn't take long for this thread to actually start arguing about topics being forbidden.

which is a big nono, so I suggest you stop it

 

[arbiter6]

I hope my post won't join this dynasty either...

It didn't take long for this thread to actually start arguing about topics being forbidden.

which is a big nono, so I suggest you stop it

My fear exactly

Topic is closed for me then. *bows head*

 

[Tjuk]

First of all I'd like to make absolutely clear that I think that we don't need any extra moderation and that you are wrong to suggest it at all.

I am principally against supporting any kind of moderation or, if you will, censorship, even when it's due. It unnecessarily limits the freedom of gentlemen to consider all options in a discussion, only to keep one or two scoundrels from interfering.

I also like to point out your error in concluding that an observation is new, based on the fact that you can't remember seeing it before or simply forgot that it was there all the time. Things, I can assure you, are not getting worse. In fact, post like yours have been popping up every now and then for years and if there was any truth to any of them the forums should be practically unreadable by now. In the past we had our "province x should/shouldn't have a University" wars, the "cavalry is overpowered" discussions and let's not forget the all time favourite "random Balkan province X should have culture Y, because we owned the place rand(1)*100 years" (seriously, this one has been going on through all the EU's, CK and Vicky).

Concluding, as long as the good moderators of these forums keep the crowd in check by using basic people skills and plain common sense I don't think we need any new absolute do nots.
-edit-: LOL, the time it took me to write this posts was the time necessary for the topic to be filled with replies and end up being almost closed. I wonder what would have happened if it had been closed before I posted.

 

[I am.]

It didn't take long for this thread to actually start arguing about topics being forbidden.

which is a big nono, so I suggest you stop it

I apologize if my post appeared as arguing, it is merely expressing a point of view on censorship in real life also, not only in game..
I did not suggest you guys/gals do not know what you are doing, nor imply there should be no censorship (as the reality is, there are people that would abuse it) but I just expressed my thoughts on censorship and how I`d handle it

 

[Slargos]

It's been said before, but it bears repeating:

Freedom of speech does not exist on this forum, nor should it.

This is a forum for discussing a particular game, the features of said game, and from time to time leniency is given to go off on a tangent, such as this thread.

It is important for Paradox to maintain a pleasant climate here, since it makes financial sense to have as many people as possible comfortable with spending time both on the forum and with their games.

Some topics will create an uncomfortable climate, and are often only in the widest sense even relevant to the game itself; for a poignant example, the holocaust and HOI where the game is about the war and handling such a sensitive issue really doesn't add nor subtract from the gaming experience so it becomes uninteresting to tackle. Meanwhile, EU3 being more or less a geopolitical renaissance simulator, needs to handle things like crusades, jihads and reconquistas which are made less sensitive by the passage of time.

Most of the time, moderators will let you know that you're stepping out of line and give you plenty of warning before they need to actually bring out the big club, and as such there is little need (and little practicality) in actually delineating all the topics that are verboten since such a list would only give trolls and trouble makers wiggle room for their antics.

I guess to sum things up:

Obey the law.

Use common sense.

Stop immediately.

Turn the rap music off.

Be polite.

Shut the hell up.

Get a white friend.

And you probably won't get your ass kicked by the moderators.

...

Ok, you probably don't need a white friend. But the rest stands.

 

[midget_roxx]

Whats the point of this thread? There is no "stab hit" (as you put it) when moderating the rules since it creates a better environement for people browsing forums to know what the PI community is like. Oh and about the consitutional right of freedom of speech ... this server isn't based in the US of A

Also arbitar it seem the whole purpose of this thread is to encite some flaming.

 

[Maleficus]

-What is your opinion on keeping CERTAIN topics definitely OUT of this forum ?

If it's relevant, it absolutely should not be banned from discussion. The Holocaust for example, while it was without doubt an abhorrent event, it is historical fact, and we shouldn't treat it as if it didn't exist. In fact, if anything, that's the opposite of what we should do because, as the saying goes, 'If we do not learn from history we are doomed to repeat it'.

Of course, there's no reason to be discussing the holocaust in the EU3 forum anyway, but in the HOI forum, I believe it's a perfectly legitimate subject. At least until you get to the point where N00bJooKilla101 posts spam bigging the Nazi's up.

As long as it is relevant, and the responses are mature, any topic should be up for discussion.

 

[unmerged(128725)]

It didn't take long for this thread to actually start arguing about topics being forbidden.

which is a big nono, so I suggest you stop it

A good example of friendly but quite clear moderator action

And besides the occasional edgy discussion, I believe we posters are a bunch of nice people.

As I already wrote, no further action is needed, IMHO.

 

[naggy]

As a note: The HoI rules are there to protect Paradox against German and EU laws on the subject (esp the swastika, which is banned in several European nations).

 

[unmerged(72758)]

-What is your opinion on keeping CERTAIN topics definitely OUT of this forum ?

-Can mods establish a list of those topics that could result in warnings (and sticky it)?

2) A post warning about what EXACTLY is out of order. I mean you can't exactly ban someone for not respecting rules that weren't written down in the first place, even if those seem obvious to all.

First of all I'd like to make absolutely clear that I think that we don't need any extra moderation and that you are wrong to suggest it at all.

I am principally against supporting any kind of moderation or, if you will, censorship, even when it's due. It unnecessarily limits the freedom of gentlemen to consider all options in a discussion, only to keep one or two scoundrels from interfering.

Concluding, as long as the good moderators of these forums keep the crowd in check by using basic people skills and plain common sense I don't think we need any new absolute do nots.

Freedom of speech does not exist on this forum, nor should it.

This is a forum for discussing a particular game, the features of said game, and from time to time leniency is given to go off on a tangent, such as this thread.

It is important for Paradox to maintain a pleasant climate here, since it makes financial sense to have as many people as possible comfortable with spending time both on the forum and with their games.

I suggest Paradox posts a sticky in every (sub)forum, with the Forum Rules (FAQ) : http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_faq_forum_rules. Not sure that everybody reads them before posting !

 

[unmerged(141605)]

It's been said before, but it bears repeating:

Turn the rap music off.

No rap music? But I switch out the game audio with 50 cent.

 

[atrevir]

i know the secret word for chaos in EUIII. Balkan cultures! nobody wants to talk about it and about changing it. i think its OK atm but allot of people start flame wars about it. they have to be the most horrible discussions here.

 

[Slargos]

No rap music? But I switch out the game audio with 50 cent.

I meant to say something else, but these days I'm too scared to use profanity. o

 

[Rudolf]

As a note: The HoI rules are there to protect Paradox against German and EU laws on the subject (esp the swastika, which is banned in several European nations).

Yes, those laws do prevent some interesting situations. But isn't it interesting that the hammer & cycle hasn't been banned as well.

 

[Garak]

Whats the point of this thread? There is no "stab hit" (as you put it) when moderating the rules since it creates a better environement for people browsing forums to know what the PI community is like. Oh and about the consitutional right of freedom of speech ... this server isn't based in the US of A

Which wouldn't matter anyway, since freedom of speech protects you against acts of Congress, not private organizations like Paradox, lol.

 

[Rudolf]

Which wouldn't matter anyway, since freedom of speech protects you against acts of Congress, not private organizations like Paradox, lol.

Very good interpretation of the First Amendment, spot on.