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Secret Master

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After having read a number of posts on all of these things, it occurs to me that there is some misunderstanding on the manpower as presetned in EU, the badbboy system as it would relate to the period covered in EU2, and war exhaustion as presented in EU. Let me explain what I am talking about.

1) Many people have complained that massive recruiting does not hurt the economy. They could have a valid point, but the manual for EU makes it very clear that the available manpower for your country already takes into account how many young lads you may draft before it hurts your production. That means the available manpower is literally "the extra folks" who can be drafted without hurting the all important production of agriculture. So, technically, we are not even given full access to the manpower of our country, but rather only the surplus manpower. Now, the complaint of massive recruiting not hurting the economy is linked to the game balance issue of fielding ridiculous armies of incredible size that do not in any way fit the era of warfare you are in. In order to fix this, lowering manpower is not the best ansewr. I say, if someone really wants an army of 500,000 men and 1,000 cannon, let them have it. The game needs to have a far higher cost of maintenance, so that you will go into debt trying to support such a huge army, but you can raise one if you really want to. Also, by giving harsher supply penalties to units of lower tech levels, you will see that huge army waste away due to attrition if you try and create it in 1500. On a side note, I would love to see the penalties for lower than 100% maintenance be far harsher, including increased desertions during peacetime if you leave it at 50%.

2) There have been many loud complaints about the Bad Boy rating and its performance. The Bad Boy system in EU actually works very well, given the limitations of the AI. Even in the Napoleonic period, a Bad Boy rating makes sense as you will notice that there were constant coalitions against him, and he only got allies by essentially doing military vassalization on countries like Austria rather than annexing them. In fact, Napoleon did historically what we do in EU all the time: keep on winning despite being such a bad boy (at least, until the Russian Winter got the best of him!). The weakness of the system lies not in the Bad Boy rating itself, but rather in the lack of a concept such as a "coalition war". There is no way in EU right now to make a "coalition", which would be a really big alliance, whose only purpose is to wipe out a bad boy country. Also, as far as I know, 2 countries that are not allied with each, but at war with the same power, do not in any way get friendlier to each other. There is no "my enemy's enemy is my friend" effect, which I think would help the AI and Bad Boy wars immensly. One great failing of the lack of coalition wars is that I can purposely ignite a general war in Europe as a bad boy, then turn around and buy peace with the countries I really do not want to fight, then wipe out the ones I do. The fix for this is to lower the amount of money floating around in the game. For an example of how this worked, I took the Ottoman Empire in the late 1750's, and provoked war with the remains of Poland-Lithunia. I had a BB of 154, so everyone in the entire world DoW. I had so much moeny, though, I was able to buy off every alliance, and the other memebers of Poland-Lituania's alliance. Then, I annexed Poland-Lithuania before the 5 year time limit was up. A good strong coalition concpet and improvement of the AI, combined with less money in the game, would make that impossible. And this leads right into my next item, which is....

3) War exhaustion. Perhaps I have misunderstood war exhaustion, but war exhaustion is not just "Peasants are mad at being drafted and having their provinces looted." War exhaustion has to do with the invisible aspects of war that we do not interact with in EU. These would include : decreased government attention to domestic problems while the war is on, unahppiness at seeing large numbers of young lads die, disruption of the normal way of life for noble and peasant alike, and the effects of "friction", as the army and navy start to eat up far more resources than they normally would. This is a normal by product of war, and is not the same as "Raising War Taxes", which would imply the government is seriously taxing the people and economy in order to raise extra forces. With this in mind, it makes sense that war exhaustion affects all provinces, not just those that are looted or sacked; however, there is one great weakness of the current set-up of war exhaustion that badly needs to be fixed. If you end all wars you are fighting, and the next day you get into another one, your war exhaustion is back to 0! This makes no sense, and I would like to see a decline in war exhaustion while you at peace, not the outright elimination of war exhausiton. As it stands now, the system is easy to abuse by both human and AI alike. This also ties in with Bad Boy wars, as you may end up at peace for only a month before another war starting. If war exhaustion carries over after the end of the war, declining rather than just going away, suddenly that huge empire of yours gets a little harder to retain, and you may be far more willing to negotiate a reasonable settlement quickly.

I hope this helps to clear up some of the misunderstanding surrounding these issues. I am also apologize if I stole a suggestion of someone else's, as I know I didn't make them all up myself. I just forgot who I took them from...:rolleyes:
 

Besuchov

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Yes, the ability to join a coutry at war in an alliance is something that is really missing. This was something that was common through history. Take for exemple the war in Poland in the later half of the 1600:s. Both at first both Sweden and Russia was at war with Poland but not working together. Then Brandenburg joined Sweden and a combined army ravaged around i Poland for awhile. Then everone and his brother joined the war on different sides and so on...

In EU terms Russia and Sweden would be at war with the same country but not allied, the same could not be said about Sweden and Brandenburg. This kind of thing was rather common, it happend during the 30years war as well. Thus we need some kind of war pact thingie.

Btw, if you read Swedish and is interested in the EU era. Read Peter Englunds books, they are absolutely great!
 

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Originally posted by Secret Master

1) Many people have complained that massive recruiting does not hurt the economy. They could have a valid point, but the manual for EU makes it very clear that the available manpower for your country already takes into account how many young lads you may draft before it hurts your production. That means the available manpower is literally "the extra folks" who can be drafted without hurting the all important production of agriculture.

the problem being that the "extras" are still:

a) Too large
b) reset every year and after each build

B leads to the following problem. Navarre might only be able to build 5k men at one pop but once they spend 3 mos building 5k men they can immediately start building another 5k worth of guys. If the ,manpower limit is 20k that means they can build an irrationally large 20k army in one year. Worse, that 20k resets next year so you can start building again (unless I've misread this feature in my build efforts). If you've played for any length of time, you know this is exactly what the machine does. The manpower limit is meaningless becuase it is only a governer on how much per year. Since no one dies, falls ill, deserts etc during a peacetime year when an army moved you aren't even using up manpower to replace losses that way so armies always grow larger. Just making the manpower limit an annual figure might help substantially since it would decrease army sizes by 1/4- although tiny minor would still be able to field 20k armies with little difficulty over a few years.

I know there will be maintenance increases but even doubling maintenance costs (pretty strong) that will kncok Cologne from a max 62k army to a max 31k army which is still all out of whack.
 

unmerged(2540)

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Ok, i may be way off, but does conscription in a province reduce the pop of that province?even if it is only 1/10 of the amount conscripted(so 5000 conscripts reduces pop of province by 500.)Then , if someone wants to continually abuse the manpower joke, their provinces suffer.
Any ideas on whether this idea is good,bad, insane?
 

Secret Master

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Population of provinces

The number represented in the population sata of your province only represents the population of the city within the province, not everyone living there. I do not know if Paradox will be changing this.

As far as manpower goes, Sidney, you have a point about the 20k minimum on manpower. Perhaps you should have a lower minimum, so that Cologne only has a total possible manpower of, say, 5k. That would mean it would take years to build up any kinf of army. The only problem there is that the tiny countries are already pushovers for anyone who wants to be a bad boy. I do not know how to reconcile the two.

Also, I was thinking of even harsher maintenance increases, say 3 or 4 times the current maintenance costs as they stand in EU.

As far as armies not losing men during peacetime, I always assumed that part of army maintenance was the replacement of the old and sickly as they got out of the army. Another reason to raise the maintenance cost by a factor of 3 or 4. When combined with an option that allows desertions if you fail to pay 100% of maintenance costs, I feel this will regulate army sizes fairly well, though those of us who are true geniuses will be able to find ways around it so we can conquer the world.
 

Steph

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The bad part of the manpower is the unlimited effect. I you don't fight any war, you can simply wait for the manpower to increase, then recruit new troops forever, and have a HUGE army. You can even recruit many more troops in a province than the inhabitant in this province!

I suggest to use manpower as it is done in Rebellion. The manpover is the max number of troops you can have at the same time in the army. When you build a new army, the manpower decreases, and increases when an army is destroyed or disbanded.
The manpower is linked to the global population, the techonolgy, etc.

It would even be better to have a manpower for each province. So you could raise only a few regiments from your least populated provinces, and a lot from the most populated.

For other ideas, check ly post titled suggestion.
 

Secret Master

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Your suggestiong could work, Steph, but...

If we do it that way, then part of the tech tree should involve bonuses to the manpower rating of your country. That way, advancing in technology allows you to field bigger armies, which would make sense during the period in question. I'm interested in knowing what Paradox has planned for this? Anyone heard Greven mention it?


On a side note, provinces already have limitations to the number of men they can recruit. Some of my provices can field an instant 40,000 man army. Others I cna barely recuit 1,000 men, forcing me to march armies around to get them together.
 

Steph

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Re: Your suggestiong could work, Steph, but...

Originally posted by Secret Master

On a side note, provinces already have limitations to the number of men they can recruit. Some of my provices can field an instant 40,000 man army. Others I cna barely recuit 1,000 men, forcing me to march armies around to get them together.

Yes, but that's only for the army one can build at one time. And even with a limit of 40000, if you build army again and again in the same province, you can recruit 400000 troops in the same province in a quite short time! That's impossible.

In the BG, there was a limit to the number of army a country could support. The maintenance cost was MUCH higher if this limit was exceeded. That could be a good way to do it.
 

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Re: Your suggestiong could work, Steph, but...

Originally posted by Secret Master
If we do it that way, then part of the tech tree should involve bonuses to the manpower rating of your country. That way, advancing in technology allows you to field bigger armies, which would make sense during the period in question. I'm interested in knowing what Paradox has planned for this? Anyone heard Greven mention it?

Yes. I think military tech should be divided :
- Infantry
- Cavalry
- Artillery
- Logistic (for manpower and supply)
- Strategy (for a bonus to leaders?)

This way, Poland could focus on cavalry while England focus on Infantry.

I also think it could be possible to set the type of army you want : professionnal, conscription, force recruit, feudal... And this will have an effect on the manpower, the maintenance cost, and the efficiency of new troops.

I have another idea about structures. It could be interesting to be able to build some military academey (infantry, cavalry, artillery and naval?) that would boost the tech research in that field, and perhaps give a bonus to the quality of troops recruited in the province where the academy is
 

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Originally posted by Steph
The bad part of the manpower is the unlimited effect. I you don't fight any war, you can simply wait for the manpower to increase, then recruit new troops forever, and have a HUGE army. You can even recruit many more troops in a province than the inhabitant in this province!

I'd like the nationwide manpower limit split up per province. It seems a bit strange that you have a nationwide surplus to use for local army recruitment, especially considering the difficulty of transport in the middle ages.
 

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Great idea Steph

I really like the idea of being able to decide what type of army you have. It makes alot of sense. It would allow rich countries with small populations to match the larger ones. I also like the idea of allowing Logistics as a tech field. Prussia didn't have the population of France, but due to Moltke's mobilization skills, he was able to match France's army on the battlefield due to his use of rail and pre-planning.

I also like your idea of deciding what you would like to specifically invest in (i.e. artilliary, infantry, calvery) as well as strategy. I think this would make the game very intereasting. A Prussian army defeating a larger French army due to advancements in artilliary, ohh, i get goosebumps.
 

Alexandre

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Originally posted by Secret Master


2) There have been many loud complaints about the Bad Boy rating and its performance. The Bad Boy system in EU actually works very well, given the limitations of the AI.


Overall, I think that the BB rating works fairly well. However, I'd suggest making the following changes to it to create more realistic outcomes:
1) Split the BB rating into four sections:
a) The Global BB rating is caculated *only* on provinces taken in aggresive war. 1 BB pt for a trading post, 2 BB pts for a colony, 3 BB pts for a city under 10,000 and an additional BB pt for each 10,000 thousand thereafter (e.g., 4 BB pts for a city of 15,000, 5 for a city of 25,000)
b) the Christian BB rating: BB pts for annexing a Christian state (double if annexed by a non-Christian state) or converting a Christian province to a non-Christian religion (at half the province rate above, rounded down)
c) the Moslem BB rating: BB pts for annexing an Islamic state (doubled if annexed by a non-Moslem state) or converting a Moslem province to a non-Moslem religion (at half the province rate above, rounded down)
d) the Far Eastern BB rating: BB pts for annexing a Far Eastern state (doubled if annexed by a non-Far Eastern state)

All states look at the Global BB rating. Christian states add the Christian BB rating, Moslem states add the Moslem BB rating, Far eastern states add the Far Eastern BB, and American states don't add anything.

There should be special Christian BB points if Rome, Constantinople or Jerusalem are annexed (or converted) by non-Christian states, there should be special Moslem BB points if Mecca or Jeruslame are annexed (or converted) by non-Islamic states. I'm open to nominations for Far Eastern provinces being given similar status, but don't know enough to make any nominations.

As a result of these changes, we are more likely to see crusades and jihads that unite a civilization against serious incursions by a state belonging to another civilization. It also doesn't turn Russia into the pariah of the West for conquering a host of small Mongolian khanates or turning the Ottoman Turks into the pariahs of the Dar al-Islam for conquering a host of small Balkan principalities.

Given the much higher rate of BB acrual, BB ratings need to fall much faster (probably once or twice a year, but that will have to be decided in Beta Testing. I'd suggest that each power loses one BB pt from any one of the four BB ratings that it has every six months. Of course, we'd all hope to lose Global BB points first, but couldn't count on it.


The weakness of the system lies not in the Bad Boy rating itself, but rather in the lack of a concept such as a "coalition war". There is no way in EU right now to make a "coalition", which would be a really big alliance, whose only purpose is to wipe out a bad boy country. Also, as far as I know, 2 countries that are not allied with each, but at war with the same power, do not in any way get friendlier to each other. There is no "my enemy's enemy is my friend" effect, which I think would help the AI and Bad Boy wars immensly. One great failing of the lack of coalition wars is that I can purposely ignite a general war in Europe as a bad boy, then turn around and buy peace with the countries I really do not want to fight, then wipe out the ones I do. The fix for this is to lower the amount of money floating around in the game. For an example of how this worked, I took the Ottoman Empire in the late 1750's, and provoked war with the remains of Poland-Lithunia. I had a BB of 154, so everyone in the entire world DoW. I had so much moeny, though, I was able to buy off every alliance, and the other memebers of Poland-Lituania's alliance. Then, I annexed Poland-Lithuania before the 5 year time limit was up. A good strong coalition concpet and improvement of the AI, combined with less money in the game, would make that impossible. And this leads right into my next item, which is....


Agree 100%


3) there is one great weakness of the current set-up of war exhaustion that badly needs to be fixed. If you end all wars you are fighting, and the next day you get into another one, your war exhaustion is back to 0! This makes no sense, and I would like to see a decline in war exhaustion while you at peace, not the outright elimination of war exhausiton. As it stands now, the system is easy to abuse by both human and AI alike. This also ties in with Bad Boy wars, as you may end up at peace for only a month before another war starting. If war exhaustion carries over after the end of the war, declining rather than just going away, suddenly that huge empire of yours gets a little harder to retain, and you may be far more willing to negotiate a reasonable settlement quickly.


Agree 100%

Alexandre
 

unmerged(2685)

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I am in strong agreement with SM on his first two points. His suggestions on HOW to modify those issues are simple and would likely have the intended effects.

SM, reading through your final point I kept waiting to hear you reference the role of the EU I 'Stability' level as a potential place to account for war exhaustion. War exhaustion certainly translates to instability, which of course in EU I is largely accounted for in said 'Stability' rating. I would agree, though, if your kneejerk response to this post is "A hit in the 'Stability' level isn't enough to adequately reflect the severe consequences of war exhaustion." I would agree that taking a strong hit elsewhere is called for - any ideas as to where (either as an add-on or as a mod to the existing user interface?)
 
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The unfeasibly large armies due to manpower problem might be partially tackled by adding this in:

During the time period, the average life expectancy was around 35 years. That is distorted because of the large numbers that died in childbirth, but let it go. If soldiers are recruited at an average age of 20, then they are at the very most, going to serve for an average of 15 years. Taking all in all, I suspect 10 years might be more accurate. Therefore, any army that you possess, even if it is not subject to attrition, should reduce in size by 10% per year or thereabouts. ie. a rate of "zero attrition" would reduce your armies at a little less than 1% per month. Also, as mentioned above, maintenance rates should be far higher.

This puts an end to the brave cavalryman that sits on a hilltop in Switzerland for three hundred years without dying :D
 

State Machine

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Alexandre

Very good.

Of course, as an aside, geopolitically correct DoW's by the ai should be backed up by appropriate force and concentration on the target.
 

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Originally posted by Heyesey
The unfeasibly large armies due to manpower problem might be partially tackled by adding this in:

During the time period, the average life expectancy was around 35 years. That is distorted because of the large numbers that died in childbirth, but let it go. If soldiers are recruited at an average age of 20, then they are at the very most, going to serve for an average of 15 years. Taking all in all, I suspect 10 years might be more accurate. Therefore, any army that you possess, even if it is not subject to attrition, should reduce in size by 10% per year or thereabouts. ie. a rate of "zero attrition" would reduce your armies at a little less than 1% per month. Also, as mentioned above, maintenance rates should be far higher.

This puts an end to the brave cavalryman that sits on a hilltop in Switzerland for three hundred years without dying :D

Excellent idea. Mortality, desertion and the end of service terms all contribute to constant attrition in the ranks. This would force you to build a lot to keep your army up to size.

Just a note, most soliders in early modern armies were much older than curreny soliders so 35-45 year olds were common,
 

Alexandre

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Re: Alexandre

Originally posted by State Machine
Very good.

Of course, as an aside, geopolitically correct DoW's by the ai should be backed up by appropriate force and concentration on the target.

That is a whole other can of worms. Hopefully there will be some improvement.

Alexandre
 

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I agree with nearly all the above suggestions, especially the idea of "regional" BB's.

The only thing i really disagree with is a "cap" on army size, I agree with secret master that higher maintenence is the best way to solve this issue "naturally" (and deal with the issue of needing constant influx of men to keep up strength).
 
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Originally posted by Martinov

The only thing i really disagree with is a "cap" on army size,

There certainly ought to be SOME kind of cap. Otherwise we're still going to see things like: England with a standing army of 2 million men, when the entire population of the country is less than 5 million. What is this, doddery old men and toddlers wielding rifles? :D
 

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A "natural" cap is the amount of men you can support if 100% of your income is going to maintenance. At the moment such a figure is probably too hight, at a guess 1,000,000 soldiers could probably be supported on an income of 2000 ducats a year, hence our argument for higher maintenance costs.

Of course, an easy way out would be to make 1 factor of inf/cav equal to 500 soldiers not 1000! This would scale things more accurately!