Some thoughts on Leagues

[Kliwarrior]

In EU4 we have two kind of leagues

- A “pure” defensive alliance for Native Americans. The leader is chosen by prestige and reputation, but most important “league” and alliances are quite distinct
- The “trade league” mechanism for Republics. Here the leader has a clear prominence upon the other members (and typically become filthy rich..)

What did we have, historically, in classic period ? Both of them.

A “Defensive league” was the coalition of Greek cities against the Persian Empire. Obviously, Sparta and Athens were the most prominent cities, but all the cities were “equals”. They fought and won their enemy in the two Persian wars, and then the “league” was practically dissolved (no need to stick together against a common enemy).

“Aggressive league” like the Delian League (lead Athens) and the Peloponnesian League (lead Sparta) and the Corinthian League (lead Macedonia). Cities may freely join the league, at the beginning, but actually what happened was a “mandatory” participation, with no possible choice of a way-out.
I want to stress that with these kind of leagues, all other cities were not “tributary” of the Leader, and they were officially independent.
On the other side, the “mandatory” participations (and the impossibility to recede, see "war of Allies" when some cities wanted to exit from Delian League) made them quite different from standard alliance.

In the last DD , Johan mentioned “defensive league”. I think he referred to the first kind of league, but I really hope that the second one will be included in I:R in some terms.

Please note that the Socii conditions for Rome, was not similar to the previous two. The territories of the other countries were officially included into the Res Publica (that is: they were annexed) but the single cities and their inhabitants were not Roman Citizens , they were exactly “socii” (allied) .
Talking in EU4 terms I’d say “not accepted cultures” which anyway must provide taxes and soldiers. I hope that this condition will be modelled in I:R with, handling with POPs .

Your thoughts on this?

 

[Puking Panda]

The problem in general is that leagues seem to function more like EU 4 coalitions now being purely defensive in nature whereas they historically were used for expansion as well. It should be more of a EU 4 Holy Roman Empire like mechanic where you can more dynamically and also painstakingly progress the union between nations from a purely defensive coalition to a more offensive type of league and eventually even a union where you can dilplo-annex all the members.

This could also add alot of gameplay for barbarian nations where, if they rebel, they could rebel as a united defensive league(or confederation) but eventually create their own nation as well, so let's say Vercingetorix wins, he or his descendants should have the possibility to create a united Gaul if they succesfully fend off the Romans and force the different Gallic countries to remain united.

 

[Thure]

The problem in general is that leagues seem to function more like EU 4 coalitions now being purely defensive in nature whereas they historically were used for expansion as well. It should be more of a EU 4 Holy Roman Empire like mechanic where you can more dynamically and also painstakingly progress the union between nations from a purely defensive coalition to a more offensive type of league and eventually even a union where you can dilplo-annex all the members.

You can't have internal war in EU4 coalitions. Also coalitions are against a certain enemy, defense leagues are against all outsite threats.

 

[Puking Panda]

You can't have internal war in EU4 coalitions. Also coalitions are against a certain enemy, defense leagues are against all outsite threats.

That was not my point, my point was simply that both Defense Leagues and Coalitions are defensive in nature even though historically the leagues were used as much to attack other nations as they were to defend with the Delian League for example being used by Athens for it's personal expansion.

 

[Kliwarrior]

"AE is gone, welcome back BB " , so the concept of Coalitions is gone, too. Probably the "defensive alliance" will trigger when a certain Bad Boy will be too near to countries which share some common heritage or don't hate each other so much to refuse any kind of collaboration.
"Hegemonic Leagues" (whichever you want to call it) seems missing at the moment

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

I do wonder if this kind of alliance mechanic is even optimal for the Greek leagues. I think I'd prefer to see them as unified states with a unique (federal democracy) government system.

 

[Thure]

I do wonder if this kind of alliance mechanic is even optimal for the Greek leagues. I think I'd prefer to see them as unified states with a unique (federal democracy) government system.

To make all the cities into one state would be way more wrong I think.

 

[Cheexsta]

In Stellaris, you can invite other empires into an offensive war even if they aren't allies, or are only in a defensive alliance. If that's a possibility in IR as well, then Leagues could be offensive as well - you just have to get the other members to really like you so they are more likely to agree to joining an offensive war.

I do hope that Leagues are more than just defensive alliances, though. Even if they are only expanded upon in future patches or DLC, I'd like to see Leagues be an important part of this game.

Hold elections for the leader; pass laws to increase or decrease financial contributions to the leader, ability to declare offensive wars, ability to take direct control of member militaries; etc.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

To make all the cities into one state would be way more wrong I think.

Why? The contemporary (thinking mainly Achaeans) Greek leagues conducted foreign relations en bloc, had unified military with central authority and a federal assembly. I don't see how Achaean league in particular is any less deserving of being a united state than early USA. Or perhaps early USA in EU and Vicky series' should also be treated as defensive league of the constituent states and commonwealths?

 

[cools0812]

Why? The contemporary (thinking mainly Achaeans) Greek leagues conducted foreign relations en bloc, had unified military with central authority and a federal assembly. I don't see how Achaean league in particular is any less deserving of being a united state than early USA. Or perhaps early USA in EU and Vicky series' should also be treated as defensive league of the constituent states and commonwealths?

I proposed a EU HRE/Stellaris federation hybrid mechanic to deal with Greek koine federations long before this DD, but now it looks like that wont be in the game, at least not vanilla.
I believe this is the best approach to Achaean League like city-states federation in IR timeframe :
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...l-federations-and-city-state-leagues.1103993/

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Some further thoughts why defensive league (or similar) is not optimal representation for the contemporary Greek leagues (i.e. Epirote, Acarnanian, Aetolian, Achaean etc.):

• Epirus would be represented as league, are we expecting Pyrrhus to cause trouble for Rome with alliance of bunch of OPMs... The Epirote allies would probably fail to even ship troops to Italy in cohesive manner.
• Sometimes these leagues -- which I belive would all fall under "minor power" -- participated in league on top of being league, if they are already wasting their league slot for sake of being bunch of regional OPMs they can't participate en bloc in bigger alliance to counter major threats (e.g. by joining a pan-Hellenic league with Macedon).

Some things need to be accounted for mechanically (eventually), such as local autonomy, accession of new poleis in the league, the possibility of polis leaving the league and possibly organic (rather than event based) method for making new leagues but I think fundamentally single tag is the way to go.

(Edit) Found a screenie of Greece from DD#3. Seems like PDS is going for single tag in this context. I see at least Acarnanian, Epirote, Boeotian, Aetolian and Euboean leagues. Achaean league does not exist in the start so it will probably get events for accession.

 

[Kliwarrior]

I proposed a EU HRE/Stellaris federation hybrid mechanic to deal with Greek koine federations long before this DD, but now it looks like that wont be in the game, at least not vanilla.
I believe this is the best approach to Achaean League like city-states federation in IR timeframe :
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...l-federations-and-city-state-leagues.1103993/

Nice ideas.
About the current "leagues" , I 'm sure that some evolution will be see in the first expansion of the game. I mean, Trade Leagues in EU4 come with Mare Nostrum, but just thinking at the very first expansions (wealth of nation, art of war) they changed a lot adding features and mechanisms that are now considered core of the game.

I forget: a more correct league would require a "enforce hegemony" and a "challenge hegemony" CB .. (and related diplo action).

 

[Rhaegar1]

I'm mildly disapointed that leagues aren't some kind of mini-HRE from EU4 (which actually should/might be included in the OP's example of what we have in EU?) An approach like this could give flexibility and great gameplay:

- Initially a league is founded on certain basic principles (like a defensive Alliance against all outer threats, a defensive Alliance against a specific outer threat, an offensive Alliance against a certain juicy target, etc.).
The leader of the league can be either a constant (the founder) or be elected and membership can be either be decided upon by the leader or voted on.

The leader of the league can try to 'reform' the league to be used for different purposes, have different rules for inner league political options or make the leadership a constant or not and could even go as far to reform the league into a whole new political entity just like the HRE in EU.

Considering how fun the HRE mechanics are (in my opionion) I think it's a missed opportunity to not go for a league dynamic like that. That being said what Johan told us now should work pretty much ok for the base game and my suggestions could easily be the focus of a DLC. It should greatly enhance the gameplay in area's like Greece or Gaul and give an alternative path towards greatness in the early game which could be fun in its own way. I can totally see a League mechanics DLC as something greatly enhancing the game.

 

[MrCDexterWard]

Considering how fun the HRE mechanics are (in my opionion) I think it's a missed opportunity to not go for a league dynamic like that. That being said what Johan told us now should work pretty much ok for the base game and my suggestions could easily be the focus of a DLC. It should greatly enhance the gameplay in area's like Greece or Gaul and give an alternative path towards greatness in the early game which could be fun in its own way. I can totally see a League mechanics DLC as something greatly enhancing the game.

Sadly this is how I see it going down. The mechanic alone can easily sell as a major DLC feature, so I think paradox is going to hold that card for later use just like the North African civilizations of the Sahara which they are leaving absent for now yet could probably be added in base.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

With the apparent confirmation that the regional Greek koinon leagues are going to be treated as single states (see edit in my previous post), what long standing cohesive leagues were there during the game's period? The examples OP brought out were anachronistic.

And if there were none, why do they need elaborate mechanics?

 

[Kliwarrior]

The examples OP brought out were anachronistic.
And if there were none, why do they need elaborate mechanics?

Anachronistic ?
The Second Delian League was dissolver by Philip in 338 BC , that is less than 40years before the beginning of the game.
The League of Corinth was an hegemonic league , and was created after the battle of Cheronea and dissolved in 322 BC. with the dead of Alexander and the start of the war of the Diadochi.
I:R starts in 304 BC .
Definitely this kind of hegemony should be present in game.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Anachronistic ?

Yes. Literally. A comparison could be made to Vicky series and HRE.