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unmerged(133356)

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This might be interesting, if they don't make it an overwhelming part of the game.

As an aside, I had a family of courtiers in one CK1 campaign who ended up with second and third suns in the church all over Europe -- produced three different Popes eventually.
 

Don_giorgio

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Ruler's sons and courtiers should be able to choose among 3 paths when they start their education 1) Military which would make them condotieri, crusaders, mercenaries, etc. and giving them some traits for that... 2) Ecclesiastical which enables them to advance in church hierarchy by becoming deacons, priest, Bishops or even claim the Papacy (or the Patriarchate if u play as orthodox) thus augmenting the influence of your court in Europe 3) Court/civillian which could make them bureaucrats, merchants, officers of the realm etc. ths gaining more money...
Same applies for female members of the Family or court except martial education...
 

Cèsar de Quart

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Also the Conclave should be biased to elect Italians as Popes.

The Conclave was not established in 1066, nor it would be until past the XIIIth Century, if I remember well. In 1054, the Council of Lyon established that the Cardinals would elect the Pope, but this election was not done cum clavis, with the cardinals locked in the Sixtine Chapel. It could last years, that's why some got tired of these long elections and decided to lock the cardinals inside a building until they starved and decided on someone to be the next Pope.

Before these Conclaves, Popes were much more international.

Still, in reference to the "control Rome, control the world", there must be a way to properly represent the Papal power even when Rome is occupied by the Pope's enemy. A way to make the Pope also overlord of Catholic kingdoms. Remember Innocent III: overlord of England, Aragon and Hungary, tutor of the future Holy Roman Emperor, arbiter of the fights between the two claimants to the throne of Germany, Otto and Philipp, supporter of Philippe II Auguste... Innocent III was the most powerful man of his era, while he lived. No one could go against him (John Lackand tried and failed). His word was law everywhere.

Now, how can this game represent a situation like that?

**

I like, however, the "dissolve the College of Cardinals" or the "disassemble the Papacy" ideas. Really. Being the startdate so early, few of the well-established Medieval traditions are still not so well established.
 

Cèsar de Quart

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The thing is that this election could last a long time. Or not. And families with influence in one of the Cardinals could meddle, so that the more they meddle, by bribing, threatening, ordering a murder, etc (soap opera for the win), the more the election is likely to last, since many families meddleing at the same time won't accelerate the election. If there's only one family, doing so, the election would be instantaneous. And if a family controls Rome and is the Emperor, they could abolish elections and appoint a Pope.

But then, its easy that another kingdom chooses an anti-pope. And voilà, Western Schism.
 

Don_giorgio

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i thought of another interesting event for the game... Lets say that u are the ruler and u have 2 sons... Your first son has martial education is married and still childless... Your second son is a clergyman with a religious trait (deacon, priest, bishop) and is ineligible to marry... Then tragedy strikes... Your firstborn and heir dies (battle wound, disease assassination etc.) childless... So the new heir is your second son the clergyman... then the ruler dies too and the second son becomes the new ruler... But there is a problem... He cant marry in order to have heirs since he is a clergyman... So there could be an intrigue event where he petitions the Pope to release him from his ecclesiastical status in order to get married and have heirs... If the Pope accepts thats ok but if he denies him the release things could be really complicated for the realm leading to some really interesting events... (i inspired this from Henry the Cardinal-King of Portugal)
 

Drakken

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That would be dynastic suicide. In royal families there's no way the second son would become a clergyman, as he is the official "spare" and he needs to breed to keep the family tree alive.
 

Don_giorgio

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Oct 2, 2010
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That would be dynastic suicide. In royal families there's no way the second son would become a clergyman, as he is the official "spare" and he needs to breed to keep the family tree alive.

Well actually in history there were many examples when the second son entered the Church... Most notable example King Henry VIII of England... He was destined for an ecclesiastical carreer while his brother Arthur was the heir to the throne of England... However Arthur died when 16 and Henry was only 11 so he abandoned the ecclesiastical stage without any consequences... Imagine what would happen if Henry was already ordained if Arthur died lets say 10 years later? Dynastic crisis...
 

Drakken

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But that is in early 16th century. In the Middle ages, no sane monarch would send his second son to become a clergyman, and thus force him in theory to become chaste. They wouldn't even with their later sons. Usually, the sons or daughters from royal lines who would be sent to the clergy were bastards.
 

Don_giorgio

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But that is in early 16th century. In the Middle ages, no sane monarch would send his second son to become a clergyman, and thus force him in theory to become chaste. They wouldn't even with their later sons. Usually, the sons or daughters from royal lines who would be sent to the clergy were bastards.

Well if not the second the youngest of his sons... Actually it would be a good twist in the game when the King's line died out and the sole survivor is the priest bastard son... This could lead to some really cool events...
 

Don_giorgio

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As for Catholic Church there would be some excellent events if u could negotiate with Pope to make your son or a courtier Bishop or a Cardinal... But if this negotiations were to be discovered it could lead to severe penalties for the ruler while the Bishop-to-be could gain the trait "Simony" aka buyer/seller of holy offices... (i know that in reality this happend almost openly in medieval times but i thought of it that way just to give an intrigue odour in the church career...)
 

Sarmatian

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But that is in early 16th century. In the Middle ages, no sane monarch would send his second son to become a clergyman, and thus force him in theory to become chaste. They wouldn't even with their later sons. Usually, the sons or daughters from royal lines who would be sent to the clergy were bastards.

Third son of Serbian Grand Duke and brother of the first Serbian king was given eclestial education... There are instances. Influence within the church was practically as important as influence in the court...
 

Don_giorgio

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Also there could be a prerogative of the Pope to remove ecclesiastical offices from courtiers or family members who commited grave offenses or are excommunicated... Example: If your courtier/son clergyman (whether he is deacon, priest, bishop or cardinal) is heretic or supports the Antipope there could be an event in which the Pope deprives him from any ecclesiastical offices held... aka he looses the trait deacon, priest bishop or cardinal with dire consequenses for the ruler in whose court he resides...
 

RedRooster81

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Another idea that I have is for more remote Christian realms to join the Catholic Church (that is, open relations with Rome). My example would be Spain before the end of the XI century, when bishops were invested spiritually by other bishops (though like in the HRE key royal officials) and the Mozarabic, or Visigothic, Rite was used for religious observances. Alfonso VI of Castilla-Leon (d.1109) encouraged connections with Western Europe, including the Papacy. I understand that Croatia was in a similar situation during the Great Schism, between the Byzantines and the Papacy. And there is the Crown of St. Stephen in Hungary. So maybe some of these regions should start with Orthodox or something similar as the official religion with national decisions to join with the Latin Rite, which could bring the benefit of papal crusades against Pagans or Muslims, special privileges (as inducements to support Rome), and warmer relations with other Catholic realms. This is just an idea that I might mod into my own 1066 game, but I wanted to throw it out there.

The Catholic Church was not and has never been a monolithic institution, even less so because of the slowness of travel and the diversity of local religious practices (particularly in more isolated places or places recently conquered or converted from Islam, paganism, or other forms of Christianity). The HRE, France, and Italy were the core of Catholic orthodoxy (of the papal empire if you will) in the XI century and forward, and it is in these places that IMHO the Papacy paid the most attention. Iberia, Ireland, Scandinavia (as Veld seemed to suggest in response to DD#4), in some cases the Crusader States were the frontiers of Catholicism, and the Papacy tried to help these areas along when possible and in return gained political allegiance and in exchange offered secular leaders a sense of legitimacy. I just thought I'd off up my thoughts for your consideration.
 

Don_giorgio

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Men with an ecclesiastical education should have a career in the church... obtaining ranks (deacon, priest, Bishop and in cases of catholics Cardinal as traits) it would have made the game really good trying to be at terms with both secular and spiritual authorities...
 

Orinsul

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Not everyone with ecclesiatical should have a career in the church, a great many kings and princes went that way and never entered the clergy at the end of it. Princesses too as Edith/Maud is the obvious example being so well known.
Maybe at the end of an exxlesiatical education [the event that gives the trait] would have the option between joining the church or not. With an addition trait that forbays marriage and has the character treated as a member of the clergy with unique events and the ability to be appointed court bishop or even elected pope.

but as for ranks and the like, that sounds alot of complication for very little gain.

Maybe later into the game there could be an additional option between those two to join the friars instead.
 

Don_giorgio

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Not everyone with ecclesiatical should have a career in the church, a great many kings and princes went that way and never entered the clergy at the end of it. Princesses too as Edith/Maud is the obvious example being so well known.

I ve said in a previous post that males who complete their ecclesiastical education could trigger an event in which the player decides whether they enter clergy or remain secular... if they choose to enter clergy they gain the trait "Deacon" and marriage is forbidden to them... then they can promoted to priest (acquiring the trait "priest") and from there they can be elected/appointed Diocese/provincial Bishops (thus taking the trait "Bishop")... the trait "Cardinal" would be granted at Pope's discretion to any of these clergymen of any rank... I dont think that 4 more traits puts any more burden in the game... Just adding some flavour (and some interesting events if u want) in the game...
 

Orinsul

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Id rather see Cardinals as a EU3 HRE type thing with being the, make up a number, say seven as its odd and also lucky, men who elect the next pope and get to vote on papal reforms. than a trait. and with Bishops, surely itd be best left as an Office, either holding a Bishopric or being court bishop in the court.
And getting someone with the eccelesiastical trait to be your court bishop was enough trouble in CK without added a need rank into matters.
Surely one trait for being in the clergy is enough.
 

Don_giorgio

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Oct 2, 2010
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Id rather see Cardinals as a EU3 HRE type thing with being the, make up a number, say seven as its odd and also lucky, men who elect the next pope and get to vote on papal reforms. than a trait. and with Bishops, surely itd be best left as an Office, either holding a Bishopric or being court bishop in the court.
And getting someone with the eccelesiastical trait to be your court bishop was enough trouble in CK without added a need rank into matters.
Surely one trait for being in the clergy is enough.

Why trouble? 4 more traits isnt too much of a trouble... besides these could give a nice flavour to the "Church career"...
 

Orinsul

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would it though? bring any flavour? that the abstraction wouldn't?
You have a trait to signifiy that he is a member of the clergy, his position in the church comes from his position and standing, not from an arbitrary trait.
All having the additional steps to make up on the road would be extending the amount of time you wait before being able to fill that desperately empty court position or be able to do anything with that waste of a third son. Just be another way of take things out of the players hands and delaying things.

Having different Clergy traits for different types of clergy, i.e. monk, friar or priest. might have a reason as its branch, but rank? Why not have rank defined by position and action rather than a random event? Flavour with meaning is surely better than extra icons and sitting around waiting for an arbitrary trait change to happen.