Some thoughts about Church career in CKII

[Don_giorgio]

I had some thoughts about creating a Church career in the oncoming CKII...

General thoughts

-Males who have completed their ecclesiastical education have an event popped in which they get to choose if they prefer a secular or ecclesiastical career...
-If they choose ecclesiastical career they receive the trait "Deacon" (lowest rank of clergy) and become ineligible for marriage while they retain this trait or any other ecclesiastical trait...
-After few years (5-7) they can acquire the trait "Priest" (while loosing the trait "Deacon") resulting in a gain of gold/piety and experience (aka an increase in their stats)
-Characters with the trait "Deacon" or "Priest" are eligible to be elected/appointed to provincial Bishoprics/Archbishoprics or as Diocese Bishops and they acquire the trait "Bishop" (and lose the trait with previous rank)
-Characters with ecclesiastical traits can inherit titles and they can choose to resign their ecclesiastical rank through a petition to the Pope/Patriarch and if it is granted they can be marriedand have legitimate offspring... Of course their superior authority has also the option to deny their petition and leave them unable to marry...
-While holding any of these ecclesiastical ranks the character can have bastards but this can cause him piety and prestige loss...
-Characters holding ecclesiastical ranks are still eligible of holding any other office court...
-characters with "Bishop" trait can excommunicate members of the ruler's court but excommunication can be revoked only by Patriarch/Pope through events

Catholic Church thoughts

-Characters with any ecclesiastical trait (Deacon, Priest, Bishop) and have high piety and prestige can acquire the trait "Cardinal" which gives them more gold and piety for themselves and the ruler...
-Characters with the traits of Deacon and Priest can acquire the trait "Cardinal" and remain in the ruler's court while those with the "Bishop" trait settle in Rome when they get the Cardinal trait...
-I would suggest that in the game could be 6 Cardinal-Bishops 14 Cardinal-Priests and 7 Cardinal-Deacons....
-When the Pope dies there would be a list with most pious and prestigious catholic prelates and/or Cardinals and each cardinal gets a vote (the ruler of the court in which the cardinal resides determines the vote as for the Bishops who reside in Rome the vote will be determined by their monarch... example: Cardinal-Bishop Jean de Toulouse resides in Rome and in the event of Papal election his vote will be determined by the French King) the prelate/Cardinal who gets the most votes is elected Pope...
-When a new Pope is elected a popup event is trigered in which the new Pope gets to pick a regnal name and is numbered... example: Cardinal Giovanni Medici wins the election and the player who controls him gets an event in which he gets to pick a Papal name among 4 random names lets say Clemens, Innocent, Pius and Benedict and he chooses to be called Pius... Then u have an event in which u are informed about the Coronation of the new Pope Pius II...
-An interesting trait would be this of the "Antipope"... When the ruler of a realm is in heresy or in serious odds with the Pope in Rome he can have the option to set up an Antipope in his court and try to impose him through influence and war...

Thoughts about Orthodox Church

-A unique "patriarch" trait should be created and given to the Diocese Bishop of the Imperial Capital of Eastern Roman Empire wherever this may be...
-Another trait i would suggest for the Orthodox Church would be the "Synodical Bishop" roughly equivalant to the Catholic trait "Cardinal" since the Holy Synod is the body entrusted to elect the Patriarch in Orthodox Church...
-Same rules apply here where every "Synodical Bishop" gets one vote in Patriarchal elections when the former Patriarch dies or is removed by the Emperor and this vote is controlled by his ruler... who evers gets the most votes is elected Patriarch and moves to the imperial capital to assume his duties...
-The Emperor can try to appoint his own candidate to the place if he is prestigious and/or pious enough... But if he isnt such a move could cause mayhem in the Empire causing a schism and rebellions...
-The Emperor can remove the Patriarch if they are in serious odds or if he just wants to put his own kinsman to the throne but in that way he risks schism and rebellion and he must be very very prestigious to overcome the chaos by such a move...

these were a few thoughts... I may come up with some more later... But feel free to discuss them and add your suggestions to them...

 

[Amallric]

The parallel with Orthodox Church is not especially adequate. It was never really organized at the extent the western one was, and played a far lesser role in politics.

 

[RedRooster81]

I had some thoughts about creating a Church career in the oncoming CKII...

General thoughts

-Males who have completed their ecclesiastical education have an event popped in which they get to choose if they prefer a secular or ecclesiastical career...
-If they choose ecclesiastical career they receive the trait "Deacon" (lowest rank of clergy) and become ineligible for marriage while they retain this trait or any other ecclesiastical trait...
-After few years (5-7) they can acquire the trait "Priest" (while loosing the trait "Deacon") resulting in a gain of gold/piety and experience (aka an increase in their stats)
-Characters with the trait "Deacon" or "Priest" are eligible to be elected/appointed to provincial Bishoprics/Archbishoprics or as Diocese Bishops and they acquire the trait "Bishop" (and lose the trait with previous rank)
-Characters with ecclesiastical traits can inherit titles and they can choose to resign their ecclesiastical rank through a petition to the Pope/Patriarch and if it is granted they can be marriedand have legitimate offspring... Of course their superior authority has also the option to deny their petition and leave them unable to marry...
-While holding any of these ecclesiastical ranks the character can have bastards but this can cause him piety and prestige loss...
-Characters holding ecclesiastical ranks are still eligible of holding any other office court...
-characters with "Bishop" trait can excommunicate members of the ruler's court but excommunication can be revoked only by Patriarch/Pope through events

Catholic Church thoughts

-Characters with any ecclesiastical trait (Deacon, Priest, Bishop) and have high piety and prestige can acquire the trait "Cardinal" which gives them more gold and piety for themselves and the ruler...
-Characters with the traits of Deacon and Priest can acquire the trait "Cardinal" and remain in the ruler's court while those with the "Bishop" trait settle in Rome when they get the Cardinal trait...
-I would suggest that in the game could be 6 Cardinal-Bishops 14 Cardinal-Priests and 7 Cardinal-Deacons....
-When the Pope dies there would be a list with most pious and prestigious catholic prelates and/or Cardinals and each cardinal gets a vote (the ruler of the court in which the cardinal resides determines the vote as for the Bishops who reside in Rome the vote will be determined by their monarch... example: Cardinal-Bishop Jean de Toulouse resides in Rome and in the event of Papal election his vote will be determined by the French King) the prelate/Cardinal who gets the most votes is elected Pope...
-When a new Pope is elected a popup event is trigered in which the new Pope gets to pick a regnal name and is numbered... example: Cardinal Giovanni Medici wins the election and the player who controls him gets an event in which he gets to pick a Papal name among 4 random names lets say Clemens, Innocent, Pius and Benedict and he chooses to be called Pius... Then u have an event in which u are informed about the Coronation of the new Pope Pius II...
-An interesting trait would be this of the "Antipope"... When the ruler of a realm is in heresy or in serious odds with the Pope in Rome he can have the option to set up an Antipope in his court and try to impose him through influence and war...

Thoughts about Orthodox Church

-A unique "patriarch" trait should be created and given to the Diocese Bishop of the Imperial Capital of Eastern Roman Empire wherever this may be...
-Another trait i would suggest for the Orthodox Church would be the "Synodical Bishop" roughly equivalant to the Catholic trait "Cardinal" since the Holy Synod is the body entrusted to elect the Patriarch in Orthodox Church...
-Same rules apply here where every "Synodical Bishop" gets one vote in Patriarchal elections when the former Patriarch dies or is removed by the Emperor and this vote is controlled by his ruler... who evers gets the most votes is elected Patriarch and moves to the imperial capital to assume his duties...
-The Emperor can try to appoint his own candidate to the place if he is prestigious and/or pious enough... But if he isnt such a move could cause mayhem in the Empire causing a schism and rebellions...
-The Emperor can remove the Patriarch if they are in serious odds or if he just wants to put his own kinsman to the throne but in that way he risks schism and rebellion and he must be very very prestigious to overcome the chaos by such a move...

these were a few thoughts... I may come up with some more later... But feel free to discuss them and add your suggestions to them...

I like what you had to say. Strangely enough, I had similar thoughts on the ecclesiastical career idea while in church this morning. I also appreciate what you had to say about differences in Catholic and Orthodox church government (for lack of a better term). Some points I would recommend:

1. King-level Orthodox leaders will be able to name patriarchs, or even if they choose Muslim or Pagan rulers who conquer cities with patriarchs (as happened in Constantinople in 1453). In this way, you can represent the Pentarchy of late antiquity.

2. On the Papacy, I would argue that there was argument as late as the eleventh century over who had the right to appoint the Pope, and what his role should be. Gregory VII (who was pope in 1066 at vanilla Grand Campaign start) fought with HRE Henry IV and sought reforms for clerical celibacy and an end to simony (sale of church offices). Henry IV's antipope Clemens III stood against clerical celibacy and a lot of other issues, and leaned on the emperor for support of course. Had Henry won out (by solidifying the support of his own dukes, among other things) the emperor might have pressed his right to appoint the Pope (claiming old rights to do so), invalidating the College of Cardinals to a large degree.

My thinking is that if you control Rome, you could abolish the College and go with direct appointment like the devs are planning for other prelates in your realm (i.e., appoint and remove the Pope at will). Not that other Catholic powers or even your own churchmen would necessarily be very happy with you. The Pope would have a role as most senior prelate, or if the Papacy is entirely dissolved the diocesan bishop of your realm would have a similar role to an Orthodox patriarch. Then again, if the Pope were your vassal, he could be your diocesan anyway (kind of cool, I guess). This was a bit of a fantasy for the most powerful secular leaders; Carlos V did pull this off to some extent with Clement VII in the late 1520s; Charles VIII of France threatened a similar dominance over Alexander VI for at time three decades earlier. If you can dominate the pope, your ruler should get the option to overrule papal decisions. But it should not be easy to achieve or maintain such a position vis-a-vis other major Catholic powers and other power groups within Italy. But this should add to what Doomdark has hinted at regarding the Investiture Controversy and the interplay of Empire and Papacy.

Strong Catholic powers should also get the ability to create autonomous or semi-autonomous national churches, which still owed allegiance to Rome, through the mechanism of concordats. This might be one way out of the Investiture Controversy (and similar struggles with the Papacy), which France, Spain, and other nations eventually took. Under such a scheme, the temporal authority of the Papal States is respected, the right of royal appointment is in turn recognized, and the Pope is ultimate arbitrator in issues of right to rule and regarding conquests of pagan or Muslim lands. There are a lot of possibilities there, so just my thoughts.

 

[Don_giorgio]

The parallel with Orthodox Church is not especially adequate. It was never really organized at the extent the western one was, and played a far lesser role in politics.

But indeed played a role in politics... Patriarchs acted as regents for underaged Emperors as Nicholas I did for the young Constantine VII... clashed with them as patriarch Michael I did with Emperor Isaacius I... Patriarch Polyeuctus refused to crown Emperor John I if he didnt exiled his mistress former Empress Theophano and executed the assassins of his predecessor Emperor Nicephorus II.. Patriarch Germanus II clashed with Emperor Leo III over the Iconoclasm issue and was removed from office and banished... Patriarch Sergius I organised the defence of Constantinople when the city was besieged by Avars in the absense of Emperor Heraclius... I could go on for days about how Orthodox church and its clerics influenced political life in Eastern Roman Empire...

 

[RedRooster81]

To work up the religious education career track, I would propose from lowest to highest

1. Student
2. Novice
3. Acolyte
4. Deacon
5. Priest
6. Canon
7. Bishop
8. Arch-Bishop
9. Cardinal
10. Pope

Not everyone can of course progress even to level 5 (basic character statistic requirements, e.g., diplomacy 8 to become bishop?). Level 6 and above would be appointed positions. Level 4 and above require promises of celibacy, at least in the West. Level 3 would represent "minor orders" that do not require celibacy, at which point the ecclesiastic can break off the track, following a career in royal service (which of course deacons and above can do as well).

For females,

1. Student
2. Novice
3. Nun
4. Abbess

The ecclesiastical track has some departure points, especially for men. If regular orders like Franciscans, Augustinians, or Dominicans exist in your realm, Students can enter these orders as Novice, progressing from there to Friar, then Abbott.

Entering military orders (e.g., Knights Templar, Knights of Santiago, Teutonic Knights) should be possible either from military or ecclesiastical career track (also include lay members, same for monastic orders). Progress:

1. Novice
2. Sergeant
3. Knight
4. Knight Master (akin to Abbot)
5. Knight Grandmaster (akin to Arch-Bishop)

Some basic ideas. I have not seen much discussion of crusading orders, but I think that you ought to be able to grant baronial fiefs to the Templars, Teutonics, and so on. Historically, the Templars and Hospitallers owned large numbers of fiefs and other varied real property outside of the Levant, which in turn supported their efforts against the Muslims. The Teutonic Knights came to form their own state, more or less within the HRE, while the Knights of Santiago in Iberia owned considerable holdings as well.

 

[.Spartan]

Some really good ideas which would add some serious dept to character development. It would would be nice to see such a subsystem implemented within the game.

 

[Kriegsspieler]

Very interesting ideas. Personally, I doubt that we would see them in the first release, but I could imagine them being part of an expansion.

But here's a question: Why should "piety" have any role in determining who can become a bishop or a cardinal? It certainly didn't historically!

 

[RedRooster81]

Very interesting ideas. Personally, I doubt that we would see them in the first release, but I could imagine them being part of an expansion.

But here's a question: Why should "piety" have any role in determining who can become a bishop or a cardinal? It certainly didn't historically!

Well, I figure that piety is an external characteristic, that is that it is the perception of piety that is important. Then again, you should be able to make special appointments as a monarch, but the schema that I suggested might work if there is a regular, bureaucratic progression for normal folks, not lords' sons.

 

[Caranorn]

Well, I figure that piety is an external characteristic, that is that it is the perception of piety that is important. Then again, you should be able to make special appointments as a monarch, but the schema that I suggested might work if there is a regular, bureaucratic progression for normal folks, not lords' sons.

But 99% of the characters in our games are lords' sons. Well, actually not quite that many, but most of the exceptions are added by event...

Your system really doesn't make that much sense in the medieval world where a lay person could be named bishop and where most important positions in the church were held by younger sons of noble families etc.

 

[Arizal]

I like the ideas, but I would just suggest that there were not a fixed amount of ecclesiastic role. If Spain is reconquered earlier, or if orthodoxs retake Jerusalem, there should have modifiers to your numbers and so it should be more linked to a rule and less on a arbitrary and inamovible number.

 

[RedRooster81]

But 99% of the characters in our games are lords' sons. Well, actually not quite that many, but most of the exceptions are added by event...

Your system really doesn't make that much sense in the medieval world where a lay person could be named bishop and where most important positions in the church were held by younger sons of noble families etc.

We will have to see how this works out in CK2. I do not dispute that political appointments were made for bishoprics and archbishoprics. This is my own take on things, based on my understanding of late medieval Aragon and Castilla. The Church was one of the few channels of social advancement for men not of noble birth, and in some cases (along with some other groups like wealthy Jews) were favored for bureaucratic positions because they did not come from powerful aristocratic families nor could leave behind legitimate offspring (eunuchs played a similar role in contemporary China, for instance). And then there are those noble younger sons of younger sons, who like bright peasant boys, the sons of tradesmen, and others who might move into the lower clergy; these are the groups that I am thinking of for a regularized career track. For me, a similar notion exists for military and possibly other bureaucracies. If such a mechanism does not exist in vanilla CK2, I would be interested in making a mod in that direction; I found that it worked well in the Epigoni mod for EU Rome, and I and the OP received some positive feedback from our suggestions thus far.

As Frederic III indicates, there should be a flexible pool of clerics as need expands. A serious reason why the Reconquista of the Iberian peninsula proceeded at the pace it did was demographic: a major move forward for the Christians depended upon a demographic recovery: the men who conquered settled the conquered lands, then their sons or other settlers moved forward to new lands. In part, this is modeled rather well in EU Rome by forcing the player to wait until border provinces have a population of ten before colonizing a new province.

 

[Vladislav]

Orthodox clergy can get married.

 

[Don_giorgio]

Orthodox clergy can get married.

Actually its yes and no... Orthodox clerics can be married but marriage is tolerated only for the ranks of deacons and priests and that only if it happens before their ordination... Bishops on the othe other hand must be unmarried... or at least widowed... Example: You are an orthodox ruler and u have a son with an ecclesiastical education... u can marry him with a girl and then u can choose the ecclesiastical path for him so he can acquire the traits "deacon" and after some time "priest"... But as long as his wife is still alive he cannot become Bishop anywhere.. If his wife dies then he can be consecrated Bishop...

 

[Barón Rojo]

Other trait for the fun: Inquisitor.

 

[Captain Frakas]

Orthodox clergy can get married.

Catholics also... at the game start at least...
So the celibacy should be a religious law.

 

[RedRooster81]

Catholics also... at the game start at least...
So the celibacy should be a religious law.

Quite right. Clerical celibacy was in west and east already an ideal, but the Gregorian Reforms, along with the Investiture Controversy and the beginnings of the Crusades, really pushed this to the forefront of papal policy.

 

[Don_giorgio]

Another thing Paradox should definetely include in CKII is the Papal Conclave... I didnt liked in CKI how the game "randomly" chose a bishop and made him Pope... I was thinking that some of the ruling Bishops or Diocese Bishops or any other clergymen that u may have in your court get the trait "Cardinal" and get a vote in a Papal election... This could add a special flavour to the game... Rulers can buy cardinals votes or attempting to assassinate other Cardinals who threaten their candidate or stricking deals with other rulers or the Holy See over the election of the new Pope... Plus the ruler who from whose realm the new Pope comes decides about the Popes new regnal name... Also another interesting twist could be if Rome is in rebellion or some ruler with Cardinals in his realm is in really serious odds with the new Pope he could set up an Antipope (so one of his clergymen gains the trait "Antipope") in his realm and cause a serie of interesting events... If the Antipope dies the ruler has to decide whether he will elect someone to replace him or submit to the Pope in Rome... If the relations between the ruler and the Pope are back to normal the Antipapacy will propably end through an event...

 

[RedRooster81]

Another thing Paradox should definetely include in CKII is the Papal Conclave... I didnt liked in CKI how the game "randomly" chose a bishop and made him Pope... I was thinking that some of the ruling Bishops or Diocese Bishops or any other clergymen that u may have in your court get the trait "Cardinal" and get a vote in a Papal election... This could add a special flavour to the game... Rulers can buy cardinals votes or attempting to assassinate other Cardinals who threaten their candidate or stricking deals with other rulers or the Holy See over the election of the new Pope... Plus the ruler who from whose realm the new Pope comes decides about the Popes new regnal name... Also another interesting twist could be if Rome is in rebellion or some ruler with Cardinals in his realm is in really serious odds with the new Pope he could set up an Antipope (so one of his clergymen gains the trait "Antipope") in his realm and cause a serie of interesting events... If the Antipope dies the ruler has to decide whether he will elect someone to replace him or submit to the Pope in Rome... If the relations between the ruler and the Pope are back to normal the Antipapacy will propably end through an event...

Good ideas for implementing medieval Catholic politics. There is also the idea of a "general council," which a secular leader could call in order to remove the current pope (his adversary) and impose reforms on the Church.

 

[the_legion]

Orthodox clergy can get married.

Catholics at the gamestart 1066 too, it was abandoned 1139.

Sorry Captain Frakas, emud.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Good ideas for implementing medieval Catholic politics. There is also the idea of a "general council," which a secular leader could call in order to remove the current pope (his adversary) and impose reforms on the Church.

Also the Conclave should be biased to elect Italians as Popes.